Selling Gambling to Children - Do we ACTUALLY care?

Silentpony_v1legacy

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FalloutJack said:
I have no love of gambling. Presumably, I'm never the only one. Anything else?
I never got it either. If an adult wants to do it, they should be allowed to, but it's just not something that interests me at all.
It's like people who want to be famous- more power to you, but it's baffling to me why
 

Trunkage

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inu-kun said:
I think you hit the nail on the head, if a person has an ethical problem with kids accessing loot boxes and didn't say shit about Pokemon or Yu Gi Oh cards being sold is a hypocrite.

Though I haven't seen too many people make that argument, I'd expect The Jimquisition to be stupid enough to do so... Let me check... Oh god it's 15 minutes, if anyone has that much time and patience please let me know if the moral argument comes up.
I was into MtG during 3rd edition. Got a bunch of cards, still today. I was also 14 at the time. If I came up to a shopkeeper with a bunch of cash without an adult, they questioned where my money came from (and rightly so, as it could have gained from nefarious means.) I learnt that I had to watch when different staff came on to spread my money around.

Haven't there also been cases of kids stealing cards and racking up huge debts on games. FIFA was the one last time I think.

Silentpony said:
FalloutJack said:
I have no love of gambling. Presumably, I'm never the only one. Anything else?
I never got it either. If an adult wants to do it, they should be allowed to, but it's just not something that interests me at all.
It's like people who want to be famous- more power to you, but it's baffling to me why
I never understood why people pay casinos to take their money.
 

McElroy

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trunkage said:
I never understood why people pay casinos to take their money.
Silentpony said:
I never got it either.
People often say "I don't understand", but what they mean is "I don't like".

Just be honest like
Adam Jensen said:
Gambling is almost literally a legalized form of scam. IMO, it should be illegal regardless of age.
even if there's a chance (ayyy) it gets you some odd looks and an eye-roll.
 

Hawki

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Don't care overmuch. I mean, no-one had a moral panic when I bought Kinder Surprises or card packs as a child. If you can't trust your child to behave responsible on a game that has lootboxes or something similar, don't give them your credit details or their own.
 

jademunky

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It was always something that worried me. I have friends and family members who have young kids and I've had too many conversations start with them asking me "Hey, you play a lot of video games. Why are my kids asking me to buy them charge-cards at the grocery store for games they already bought?" Then, I just groan and say "hang on, that'll take a few minutes....... see there are these things called "reskins" which makes your in-game character look different........"

It's gambling and bad enough when marketed to adults since it is exploiting people with addiction issues. But with Star Wars, you have a game explicitly marketed to young children! Yeah, that is just fucking despicable.

I mean, I collected Hockey cards as a kid (dammit Mom, why did you throw them all out?) but it isn't really comparable. I never racked up hundreds of dollars on my parent's stolen credit card trying to get Teemu Selanne's rookie card.
 

Kerg3927

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I think it's important to note that gambling laws vary from country to country and in the U.S., state to state. And I think in most states in the U.S. it has to be more than just a game of chance. You also typically have to be able to win something of value. The question is, are account-specific pixelated rewards that can't be resold something of monetary value? I don't know the answer to that.

And then you've got a hundred years of collectible cards that have never been regulated, and it would seem that one would have to prove that this is somehow legally different, or both mediums would probably have to be regulated.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think it's a steep uphill battle, and one the government regulators are likely to lose, or more likely just decide not to pursue seriously beyond a public scolding. And even if the games do get removed from store shelves in some countries like Belgium, do they even care much? How are they going to regulate people downloading these games online? Any more than they can currently stop people from actual casino or sports gambling online?

I think game developers/publishers anticipated a possible backlash and decided it was worth the risk because there is likely nothing that anyone can do about it. I think loot boxes are here to stay.
 
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I just thought this was more of a parenting issue.
If you know your kid is playing stuff online, why do you leave your credit card details available on the platform?
I leave my credit card details on some things, but I also don't have a snot nosed brat to look after to make sure they don't do something that they have no understanding of.

If there's no card for them to use, then there's no issue.

As for recent loot box controversy in general, it's slowly been making shittier games.
 

Trunkage

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McElroy said:
trunkage said:
I never understood why people pay casinos to take their money.
Silentpony said:
I never got it either.
People often say "I don't understand", but what they mean is "I don't like".

Just be honest like.
What I don't like is the winning aspect of gambling. I did nothing to earn it and its associated with a system that is designed to make you loose.

But, at least for my friends who gamble, that's not the point of gambling. If you get worried about winning, you just lose more. Don't expect to keep any of the thousands of dollars you start with at the beginning of the night.

It's about playing the games. Sounds to me like your just paying money to play blackjack. This is the part where I don't understand the logic.

And this is only anecdotal, so take that with a grain of salt. Am I'm not prostlatising to get rid of it.

As to loot boxes, I only care about them influence kids without their parents supervising them.
 

FalloutJack

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McElroy said:
trunkage said:
I never understood why people pay casinos to take their money.
Silentpony said:
I never got it either.
People often say "I don't understand", but what they mean is "I don't like".

Just be honest like
Adam Jensen said:
Gambling is almost literally a legalized form of scam. IMO, it should be illegal regardless of age.
even if there's a chance (ayyy) it gets you some odd looks and an eye-roll.
I know exactly what's not to like about it. It's just greed. The gambler and the gamblee are both just being overly greedy, and that's pretty much the end of it. It's wrong all the way around UNLESS this was then used for charity, which of course neither companies nor casinos would ever do. And if they did, it would be after taking a cut, which is wrong. So, on the whole, gambling is just unforgivable, period.
 

McElroy

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FalloutJack said:
It's just greed. The gambler and the gamblee are both just being overly greedy, and that's pretty much the end of it. It's wrong all the way around UNLESS this was then used for charity, which of course neither companies nor casinos would ever do. And if they did, it would be after taking a cut, which is wrong. So, on the whole, gambling is just unforgivable, period.
I'd say that makes you sound like a grump; greed in this world is hardly limited to gambling, after all. Just half an hour ago I tried to get an absurd (but also absurdly limited) Black Friday deal that I would've just put up for sale myself! Unforgivable. Anyway, thanks for elaborating on your brief comment earlier.

trunkage said:
I did nothing to earn it and it's associated with a system that is designed to make you lose.
I mean, you just said it yourself: the odds are that you lose. If you beat the odds you win, and thus that's earning it.

But, at least for my friends who gamble, that's not the point of gambling. If you get worried about winning, you just lose more. Don't expect to keep any of the thousands of dollars you start with at the beginning of the night.

It's about playing the games. Sounds to me like your just paying money to play blackjack. This is the part where I don't understand the logic.
One main thing to understand is that games like blackjack and poker are gambling games first and card games second. The whole point is to put something on the line. Risky behaviour is very common in general and gambling is the ultimatum of that: the only risk with odds you know and with an immediate return of investment that's always negative... unless you're lucky.

I don't like how addictive it is, and so regulations are necessary. The hubris some people get from thinking they can "beat the system" can be appalling.

Paid lootboxes are horseshit as they don't disclose their odds.
 

MHR

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I care about games being made worse on purpose to sell loot crates just because there are tens of thousands of witless morons out there willing to buy clouds of pixels and encourage it further.

However, I couldn't give a crap to the damage it does to those morons. They deserve it if you ask me. I partially consider it to be schadenfreude; seeing someone screw themselves over has a perverse sense of satisfaction, a self-inflicted justice. It's quite amusing to imagine some idiot kid using mommy's credit card to flush away hundreds on a stupid video game and see the veins on daddy's head pop out as he yells at them.

It's the same as seeing someone comically bumble their way into an electric fence. But I suppose the debate is more about whether there should be an electric fence in the first place where kids can bump into it.

But no, I don't really care. In fact, if it were a way to fund free updates for free games like TF2, I don't care if it drains a toddler's college fund, I'd be all for it. However that's no longer entirely the case. It's now making games much worse with pay-to-win mechanics.
 

bjj hero

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I think that the difference now is that it is packaged as Starwars, which is aimed at the kids, and that it has a multimillion dollar ad campaign to push it.

Team fortress never had that. Personally I think it is no worse that FIFA ultimate team which is predatory. Im glad neither my son or I play that.
 

Strazdas

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No we dont. we accepted, even glorified gambling sold to children for decades. The most popular card game in the world are little more than gambling with a game attached to it.

Right now everyone is pissing around because they want that one example of gambling to be banned but the much worse examples to stay around.
 

maninahat

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babinro said:
Potentially controversial topic ahead but one I feel could be interesting.

I'm sure many people here are at least vaguely familiar with the Battlefront 2 news surrounding loot boxes. Essentially, negative PR has lead to people and even countries calling out Loot boxes as potentially predatory practices that are akin to legal gambling accessible to children. The reason for this is because loot boxes represent random rewards for money spent where it could take an excessive amount of spending until you get the thing you desire (assuming you ever do).

I've seen a lot of people jump on board this issue and using the defense of children as the0 major point to strengthen their beliefs.



This is where things get interesting/controversial....

If this was our personal belief all along then why did it take until 2017 for this to become a HUGE issue in gaming?

Team Fortress was the first major franchise to popularize this concept to my knowledge.
We've had literally DECADES of facebook games and mobile games doing this.
Tons of credible free to play games have done something similar as well.

So the issue has been around for decades...children have had access to it for decades WITH NO BARRIER TO ENTRY SINCE IT WAS OFTEN FREE TO PLAY on platforms kids have direct access to.

If this issue truly is an ETHICAL and MORALE one...why did we stay silent?


It's my opinion that people getting on board the 'gambling to children' bandwagon are using it as a crutch to justify their actual purely selfish preferences on game design.


It reminds me of other controversial debates you'd hear about growing up from generation's prior. Don't listen to that music because _______. Don't play D&D because of _____.


Maybe being able to unite under a single reason that sounds good is all that matters if it leads to positive change?


Personal Note: Not that it should matter but I have not played any of the big 2017 loot box games. This post isn't coming from any personal bias for or against any particular game getting backlash. I don't personally care for loot box progression as a concept so I simply didn't buy any of those games.
It's an inherently bad argument: "If smoking is so bad, how come we did it for centuries?" works on the same basic premise. It only became an issue when it became egregious enough for people to take notice of it. Like, people grumbled about ripping off children with Pokemon cards and the like, but I think that it took those kids to grow up into adults to finally realise the deleterious effects of this crap.
 

CaitSeith

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You'll have to start to define who exactly you are referring as WE. Lots of people in our community has been against microtransactions and lootboxes since their inception (the rest of us just hand-waved them back then).
 

kurokotetsu

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MHR said:
However, I couldn't give a crap to the damage it does to those morons. They deserve it if you ask me. I partially consider it to be schadenfreude; seeing someone screw themselves over has a perverse sense of satisfaction, a self-inflicted justice. It's quite amusing to imagine some idiot kid using mommy's credit card to flush away hundreds on a stupid video game and see the veins on daddy's head pop out as he yells at them.
yes hilarious that a kid in a disfunctional family might get a broken bone under an abusive parent beacuse of a mechanic he barely understands and being in an unlucky situation. That should crack everybody up. As we all kmow we are all perfect amd anything that wver happens is entirely abput ehat youbdid and there is mo such thing as bad luck. The kid that didn't know what an electrical fence was is just side splittingly funny yo see suffer for something his circumstances couldn't improve.

OT: Well if this rolls down to TGCs and collector's cards, good. Never saw it that way but they are similar to gamblimg amd of similar enough it should be regulated. Gambling is fine in itself if you underatand the consequences amd when it develops on a problem have the appropiate safeguards, such as alcohol. Addiction sadly is not something we will be rid of, but it should be regulated as possible and access to assistance as widespread as possible. If thia fucks over other companoes that do a minor form of fambling I don't care. Companies are not people amd should not have precedence over the wellbeing of individuals.
 

WeepingAngels

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I care about my kids being influenced to buy worthless digital random junk and I am glad the masses finally care too. You know what else I care about and cared about before I had children? Corporations using kids to sell things through school/scouts with a small chance of winning a cheap dollar store toy or something similar. Maybe one day the masses will make some noise about that too,
 

RaikuFA

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For those who use the TCG comparison: you're getting a physical good out of it. You can sell/trade cards for other cards. You can't trade your Mercy Halloween skin for that Roadhog Halloween skin. But I'm sure I can trade a Take Inventory for a Desert of the Indomitable.