Serious question for feminist critique of video games

[EtherealBeaver]

I have been wondering the last few years why feminists like Sarkeesian complain that much about womens roles in video games. If she is so much against it and know so many other people are also against the way women are portrayed in video games, why doesnt she just become a video game designer herself and rake in the money that other developers apparantly arent interested in?

I mean, if you really want to change something, why not change it instead of just complaining about it and telling others to fix it for you? Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women? Why doesnt she act on her options instead then? She got more money from her kickstarter than many indie devs have to spend on their games she she definatly has the means even if she cant code.

If she truly belives what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore, she should be looking at millions of game sales.

Sure, anita is not "all feminists" but I cant imagine that not a single of the people who complain about the portrayal of women in video games have the means to make their own line of games where women are portrayed the way they think women should be portrayed.

EDIT: I am NOT saying that if you dont like [media] then just make your own. I am saying that if you spent the better part of your like complaining about something and you have enough money to combat it by making a game the way you think it should be (or hireing people to do it for you if you have no design experience yourself), it is hypocritical not to do so . because you cant expect to have other people make the world better for you if you have the means yourself but just dont want to do it.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Er...what?

The games industry is big. Really, really big. You aren't going to make much of a change if you decide to enter it.

Secondly, you do have people trying to do better depictions of women. They just get drowned out by everyone else.

Thirdly, can anyone be a games developer? I'm thinking, no.

If she truly belives what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore

Why?

 

[tippy2k2]

That's such a cop-out argument, don't you think?

"If you don't like 'CTRL ALT DEL', why don't you make your own webcomic!!!? You can't write or draw? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Call of Duty', why don't you make your own AAA Game!?!?! You don't have millions of dollars and a team of 100 to create a AAA game? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Sexy Co-Eds 5', why don't you make your own po....actually, never mind on that one, that's not a bad idea..."

Anyway, I'm sure you get the idea. Saying "If you don't like what someone is doing, do it yourself" is great sounding advice but 100% impractical and kind of a silly thing to say.

 

[WenisPagon]

Have you considered that maybe the viewpoints of women in the industry are already being marginalized? There are all sorts of testimonials by women of the industry that it's an old boy's club.

It's all getting better, of course, but to claim there isn't still a problem there is delusion on par with believing racism no longer exists.

 

[hazabaza1]

You do know that this is one of the oldest and worst arguments against criticism ever right?
This thread wasn't serious... right?

Captcha: Roll again.
Somewhat relevant.

 

[Vegosiux]

I mean, if you really want to change something, why not change it instead of just complaining about it and telling others to fix it for you? Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women? Why doesnt she act on her options instead then? She got more money from her kickstarter than many indie devs have to spend on their games she she definatly has the means even if she cant code.

See, that's how I view it. Call me old-fashioned, but while pointing out problems and taking them under scrutiny is all well and good, but patting oneself on the back for doing such a great job at fighting them while all one does is talk is where I draw the line. To say nothing of taking credit for the changes brought about by people who actually tackled the problem hands-on. But I'm getting ahead of myself now.

Still, to bring up my old analogy, if I see some douche harassing a girl in a game, I'm not going to go on a rant about sexism in gaming, I'm going to tell the girl "Hey, pssst! Want me to show you a few tricks to deal with that kind of people next time?"

So let me counter with my own question: Why should she have to be the one to do this? Why can't, of all the thousands of games in development around the world, just a few teams volunteer to work her ideas into the games they're working on already?

This, too. She doesn't have to be the one to do it. But she does have the resources to make it possible for someone to do it. And there are people out there who would defo be up for it, with the skills to match. She just needs to post an ad.

 

[Phasmal]

I hope, with that attitude, you're running for political office. Or you can't complain about pretty much anything.

Either way, the real reason behind this line of reasoning is usually `Oh, can you girls just shut up please?`
And no.
These conversations are not going away any time soon. Games markets are only getting bigger, and including more women. It's time our attitudes caught up.

 

[Signa]

Er...what?

The games industry is big. Really, really big. You aren't going to make much of a change if you decide to enter it.

Secondly, you do have people trying to do better depictions of women. They just get drowned out by everyone else.

Thirdly, can anyone be a games developer? I'm thinking, no.

If she truly belives what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore

Why?

It's a fair point, because if she did design a game, and it sold a lot based on her followers and fans, it could be enough for the rest of the industry to take notice and make some changes. Things like these start small. Would you have thought that a single person, a girl named Rosa Parks would have been able to bring about the changes she did just by being a ***** [footnote]I'm speaking entirely within the context of the social order at the time here. Some people could call Anita a ***** too for not shutting up about girls in games[/footnote] and not giving up her seat? You need more than complaining to fix issues, you need someone to take a stand. She's got more of a foot than most people do to take that stand, and she still hasn't.

 

[SciMal]

I have been wondering the last few years why feminists like Sarkeesian complain that much about womens roles in video games.

They act as hyper-sexualized objects, usually little more than rewards, for the player - a predominantly male demographic. Feminism seeks equality and egalitarianism, and while men definitely are sexualized in video games - it's also to appeal to male fantasies.

If she is so much against it and know so many other people are also against the way women are portrayed in video games, why doesnt she just become a video game designer herself and rake in the money that other developers apparantly arent interested in?

Because that's not her field?

It'd be like asking a basketball star to enter the Major Leagues, and we all know how well that turned out.

I mean, if you really want to change something, why not change it instead of just complaining about it and telling others to fix it for you?

Maybe she thought her talents could be put to better use educating the public about the issue instead of trying to change a notoriously male-dominated industry. If the public's opinion changes, so will their spending habits, and thus the games.

Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women?

I have no idea. It's been a long time since I've seen or read any of her stuff.

Why doesnt she act on her options instead then? She got more money from her kickstarter than many indie devs have to spend on their games she she definatly has the means even if she cant code.

It's not her forte.

If she truly belives what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore, she should be looking at millions of game sales.

Maybe she doesn't. If part of her intent was to educate, then she obviously thinks a large portion of the population doesn't share her views - otherwise her efforts wouldn't be necessary.

Sure, anita is not "all feminists" but I cant imagine that not a single of the people who complain about the portrayal of women in video games have the means to make their own line of games where women are portrayed the way they think women should be portrayed.

Uhh... sure there are. Plenty of studios take a less sexualized approach. While I can't say for certain that they'd label themselves Feminists, look at Gaben and Valve. Alyx is attractive, yes, but realistically proportioned. She takes an active role in the plot, doesn't require escorting, and while there is a budding romance she displays genuine humanity and emotion. She's not a sex toy that happens to be in the game. She's a part of the game.

The same can be said for similar characters in Mass Effect (although to a lesser extent) and it can go all the way back to Baldur's Gate II with Jaheira - a strong female character who is attractive, but realistically proportioned and with a complex backstory that leads to even more complex interactions. She's not a piece of tail or just something pretty to look at. She's completely optional, too.

Feminism exists in games.

Anita is an opinionated person who happens to be a Feminist.

 

[Queen Michael]

I agree. It's like with movies. If they're fed up with movies without a strong female lead, why don't they just make their own multi-million dollar blokcbuster movie?
/sarcasm

 

[TekMoney]

Yeah, and if I don't like the opinion I get from my doctor, I should just treat myself from now on!

 

[IPunchWithMyFists]

I have been wondering the last few years why feminists like Sarkeesian complain that much about womens roles in video games. If she is so much against it and know so many other people are also against the way women are portrayed in video games, why doesnt she just become a video game designer herself and rake in the money that other developers apparantly arent interested in?

I mean, if you really want to change something, why not change it instead of just complaining about it and telling others to fix it for you? Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women? Why doesnt she act on her options instead then? She got more money from her kickstarter than many indie devs have to spend on their games she she definatly has the means even if she cant code.

If she truly belives what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore, she should be looking at millions of game sales.

Sure, anita is not "all feminists" but I cant imagine that not a single of the people who complain about the portrayal of women in video games have the means to make their own line of games where women are portrayed the way they think women should be portrayed.

It's because it's easier to get attention by complaining.

 

[Robert Marrs]

If the market wants it to happen it will happen. Developers will adjust if they feel its in their best interest as a company. Video games are not some political platform for you to get your message across. Does not mean you can't have in a message in games but its not their primary purpose. Trying to strong arm developers into making games they way you want them made will ultimately stifle creativity. I would rather see a better representation of women happen naturally (which it will) then developers shoehorning in characters just to shut people up. This is my main reason for generally disliking and not agreeing with the social justice warriors whining and complaining. When you try to force people to subscribe to your world view you get resistance every time. Instead just present your opinion and hope people agree with you. If they don't tough shit.

 

[AntiChrist]

[...] but patting oneself on the back for doing such a great job at fighting them while all one does is talk is where I draw the line. To say nothing of taking credit for the changes brought about by people who actually tackled the problem hands-on.

I'm curious... Is that something Sarkeesian has actually done? I'm asking, not because I think you're a liar, but because I honestly don't know - I haven't paid that much attention to her stuff.

 

[Doclector]

Quite simply, even with that much money, games development isn't so easy to just pick up and do.

Hell, I have an equal passion for videogames and film. But why is film the one I'm trying to do? Because I could actually do film, whereas I have no real talent for videogame development. And just because you can't do something, doesn't mean you're incapable of critiquing it either.

I don't like Sarkeesian at all, I think she makes poor arguments, and really isn't helping the air of irrational anger around the debate, but it's simply not reasonable to just ask her to make her own games.

And by the way, no, I do not want to discuss Sarkeesian in more detail. I am in no mood for a goddamn flame war right now. Or any time on that subject, in fact.

 

[Billy D Williams]

OK, there is no problem with hating Sarkeesian. Shes extremely boring, her personality feels like shes somewhat condescending, she lies, she falsifies, she misinterprets, she misrepresents and she will outright twist something to fit her own goals. Shit, I agree with her on a lot of stuff but even still shes outright unwatchable!

But Jesus Christ dude, your making her look good! I mean fuck, you can disagree with a viewpoint and protest it without being obligated to be the one who fixes it as well! I don't know what her job is, but she has the right to enjoy doing whatever it is an still protest something completely different! Fucks sake man...

 

[Moderated]

You can't have a negative opinion unless you have made [media]

No matter how many times I hear this and no matter how many ways they phrase this, it is always retarded.