Serious question for feminist critique of video games

[Vegosiux]

No, I do not. The same way I don't credit a bolt of lightning for having invented the Tesla coil.

I know that metaphor sounds smart but you're going to have to expand it.

I mean we're talking about the issues she brought up right now in the context of her harassment.

And I mean that I'm not going to give her credit when the next game with a well-written female lead is released. Or the next next. And so on. If the market changes, it's the people who actually contributed to the actual change who will have credit for that.

She's just someone who loves listening to the sound of their own voice, with the PR to whip up people into a frenzy; not over actual problems in the industry but over how those perceived problems affect Anita Sarkeesian. To the point where for a while even having the nerve to point out at obvious fallacies in her videos got you branded woman-hater and people doing their damnest to paint you as some kind of a despicable excuse for a human being. That is not proper.

If she wants to actually change anything, she has the resources for it. Naturally she won't achieve anything on her own, she's only one person. But she's got more off her Kickstarted that several indie developers have as their budgets. There are also people with skills out there, some of which would most likely love to band together and create something new if they had the resources for it. And with the internet, she really doesn't need to do much to find such people. She can't develop a game on her own, okay, but she can publish one if she wants to.

I've had another extra cynical line but decided to not use it.

Bottom line is, she's not some kind of a revolutionary or visionary. At the moment, I have no reason to think of her as anything more than someone who loves the sound of their own voice, which, looking around the world, makes her a completely normal human being, not an exceptional one.

 

[Something Amyss]

He makes some really solid points without focusing too much on the emotional side of the arguments. A tiny voice of reason.

Except two of his "facts" have been dissected ad nauseum. On what planet is that "reasonable?"

Oh, and how heavily he does focus on the emotional element. More than Anita Sarkeesian and other "radical feminists."

 

[EtherealBeaver]

So no one should critique or have an opinion on games without making a game?

I'm sure you thought there were problems with some games, why don't you go out and make a game then?

In fact why don't you go out and make your own video series if you don't like hers.

I definatly think there should be discussion and debate but it shouldnt be dominated by one group calling people who disagree with the "bigots". It should be dominated by facts and the people in those groups who have the means to make a difference they think should be present should actually get their act together and make those changes instead of crying over how other people dont make those changes for them.

Take responsibility if you have the means. I realise not everyone is as well off as sarkeesian but she most definatly have the funds to create a video game of isaac/fez/thomas was alone fidelity - and as I said, if she doesnt want to dev games herself, she can easily hire other people to make them for her. If she truly thinks her views are shared with the masses then she should also truly belive she is sitting on a gold mine in sales wanting the kind of game she can provide. Updating the OP to provide these points even more clearly now

 

[TekMoney]

Here's a fun flaw in this that nobody's brought up. Indie games usually achieve prominence through press coverage, at least to some degree. If she were to have gone that route and developed a game featuring all the things she wants to see, the only way we'd know about it is if other journalists, critics and commentators took notice and wrote about it.

 

[Grampy_bone]

That's such a cop-out argument, don't you think?

"If you don't like 'CTRL ALT DEL', why don't you make your own webcomic!!!? You can't write or draw? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Call of Duty', why don't you make your own AAA Game!?!?! You don't have millions of dollars and a team of 100 to create a AAA game? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Sexy Co-Eds 5', why don't you make your own po....actually, never mind on that one, that's not a bad idea..."

Anyway, I'm sure you get the idea. Saying "If you don't like what someone is doing, do it yourself" is great sounding advice but 100% impractical and kind of a silly thing to say.

The difference is that Anita isn't simply saying CTRL ALT DEL is a poor comic, she's saying CTRL ALT DEL is morally wrong and harmful to society, and needs to be changed to suit her personal tastes. That's exactly a kind of "put up or shut up" situation. She even cooked up a crappy game pitch and put it in a video, asking other people to make it for her (presumably with their own money while giving her the profits). It's like she has no friggin clue at all how this industry actually works.

 

[TekMoney]

That's such a cop-out argument, don't you think?

"If you don't like 'CTRL ALT DEL', why don't you make your own webcomic!!!? You can't write or draw? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Call of Duty', why don't you make your own AAA Game!?!?! You don't have millions of dollars and a team of 100 to create a AAA game? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Sexy Co-Eds 5', why don't you make your own po....actually, never mind on that one, that's not a bad idea..."

Anyway, I'm sure you get the idea. Saying "If you don't like what someone is doing, do it yourself" is great sounding advice but 100% impractical and kind of a silly thing to say.

The difference is that Anita isn't simply saying CTRL ALT DEL is a poor comic, she's saying CTRL ALT DEL is morally wrong and harmful to society, and needs to be changed to suit her personal tastes. That's exactly a kind of "put up or shut up" situation. She even cooked up a crappy game pitch and put it in a video, asking other people to make it for her (presumably with their own money while giving her the profits). It's like she has no friggin clue at all how this industry actually works.

Jim Sterling's videos are pretty popular on this site, yes? Jim Sterling often criticizes EA for practices he believes to be harmful to the industry. Would you tell him that he should shut up and start his own publishing company?

 

[Yuuki]

Firstly Sarkeesian is not a videogame critic, Yahtzee is a videogame critic. None of Sarkeesian's stuff has anything to do with gameplay or even the actual game, 99.9% of her focus is on whether a female character is represented fairly or not. That's literally her only job. It should be pretty obvious considering how she ignores context and will take literally ANY scene of a female being depicted "negatively" and throw it into her videos. She's a very simple person with a very simple job.

So that specific type of critique/opinion really shouldn't bother anyone, especially considering how she completely ignores all feedback to her stuff and avoids communication in general (unless it's a one-way presentation/interview monologue). There's a reason why she does that.

Don't pay her any more attention than she deserves, i.e. don't make threads like these

 

[Anja Bech]

He makes some really solid points without focusing too much on the emotional side of the arguments. A tiny voice of reason.

Except two of his "facts" have been dissected ad nauseum. On what planet is that "reasonable?"

Oh, and how heavily he does focus on the emotional element. More than Anita Sarkeesian and other "radical feminists."

Edit: Oh sure, it isn't totally void of emotions, but it isn't too blatantly emotinally manipulative as these things tend to be... Are we even talking about the same video?

 

[EtherealBeaver]

Jim Sterling's videos are pretty popular on this site, yes? Jim Sterling often criticizes EA for practices he believes to be harmful to the industry. Would you tell him that he should shut up and start his own publishing company?

*** Removed this first sentence because of peoples inability to read on and set it into context ***

If he thinks he could do better for the consumer and still make money, it would make a lot of money, a lot of consumer goodwill and eventually a very successful publishing company which could show the way to the other publishers. If he is wrong and people dont really want something which is not just EA then he would be wrong, so would I, and it would be gone - but he would still have followed his convictions and the oppinions he is expressing loud and clear online.

There is no shame in being proven wrong. The shame comes from shouting loud and proud how the world should be and when you have the means to impact the world in that direction, just ignore it.

I understand why he makes the points he does but I dont agree with the center of the proble.

1: Video games make more money than music or movies. And music still has lil wayne. Probably the most racist and sexist musician I have had the unfortunate experience to listen to the last year but I see no one complain about him.

2: and video games are made with a target audience. about half of all movie goers are also female but not all movies are chich-flicks either. In fact, the people publishing movies do so with a desire to maximise their profits just like the people publishing video games. If you want to influence them, write to them. If they can prove they are a giant market, publishers will cater to them as much as possible - if they dont, they will be fired by their shareholders for not working to optimise their income.

3: Most male (in my experience - this is emperic evidence, I admit) dont bother showing their gender at all. Why would you want to show your gender if it isnt relevant. It would be like me writing in my profile that I wear a purple shirt and like that people wouldnt care and the few who would care, would probably give me flac for it. that is not an excuse though and this needs to be adressed but the way to adress it is not by having these talks because they are dominated by young people who are still out to test the social borders. It is not an excuse on their part but it is an explanation and unfortunately not something easily dealt with. Feminism in gaming (or at all) wont fix it though.

Edit: Its hard keeping up with all the updates. This went off rather quick but Im trying to answer all questions unless I feel I already adressed them in an earlier answer

 

[TekMoney]

Jim Sterling's videos are pretty popular on this site, yes? Jim Sterling often criticizes EA for practices he believes to be harmful to the industry. Would you tell him that he should shut up and start his own publishing company?

If I didnt share his views that EA is pure liquid evil and if he had the financial means to make a publishing company, then yes.

For future reference, that's the moment where you lost all credibility.

 

[WenisPagon]

That's such a cop-out argument, don't you think?

"If you don't like 'CTRL ALT DEL', why don't you make your own webcomic!!!? You can't write or draw? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Call of Duty', why don't you make your own AAA Game!?!?! You don't have millions of dollars and a team of 100 to create a AAA game? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Sexy Co-Eds 5', why don't you make your own po....actually, never mind on that one, that's not a bad idea..."

Anyway, I'm sure you get the idea. Saying "If you don't like what someone is doing, do it yourself" is great sounding advice but 100% impractical and kind of a silly thing to say.

The difference is that Anita isn't simply saying CTRL ALT DEL is a poor comic, she's saying CTRL ALT DEL is morally wrong and harmful to society, and needs to be changed to suit her personal tastes. That's exactly a kind of "put up or shut up" situation. She even cooked up a crappy game pitch and put it in a video, asking other people to make it for her (presumably with their own money while giving her the profits). It's like she has no friggin clue at all how this industry actually works.

1.) She makes no moral judgements about the aspects of games she criticizes. If you watched her videos at all, you would know that time and time again she emphasizes that the issues she is addressing do not make any of the games "bad" or "harmful", they're just questionable when viewed under a feminist lens. She does not want to bomb Nintendo's warehouses and leak diarrhea on all the copies of Zelda and Other M.

2.) The game "pitch" was a thought experiment, nothing more. What she is asking is: who would be harmed by such a game being made; why is something in this vein considered problematic?

 

[Grampy_bone]

*snip*

Jim Sterling's videos are pretty popular on this site, yes? Jim Sterling often criticizes EA for practices he believes to be harmful to the industry. Would you tell him that he should shut up and start his own publishing company?

First off, I'm no Jim Sterling fan.

Also: EVERY game critic wishes they could make a videogame. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

Jim Sterling is a critic. Anita Sarkesian is a social justice warrior! Jim Sterling entertains. Anita Sarkesian wants to (her words) tear down the boys club!! Jim Sterling makes videos for fun. Anita Sarkesian collects money to make videos, uses that money to make a game pitch, puts the pitch in her video, then asks other people to make the game with their own money.

Do you see the difference? Jim Sterling likes to voice his opinions about stuff. Does Jim Sterling ever say that EA's actions are harming the moral fiber of our children? No. Anita is *demanding* industry-wide changes based on her own personal tastes and attempting to shroud her prejudices in moral superiority.

You can't disregard context. If Anita were just another internet critic your analogy argument would be right. But she's not. She's the face of feminism and sexism in gaming, and she's making demands.

And people are listening.

 

[wulf3n]

Jim Sterling's videos are pretty popular on this site, yes? Jim Sterling often criticizes EA for practices he believes to be harmful to the industry. Would you tell him that he should shut up and start his own publishing company?

Yes, if he was serious about wanting change.

It's all fun and games to rant about how terrible the industry is, and Jim does it especially well. But lets not kid ourselves, it isn't going to sway the minds of publishers one iota, and everyone knows this. It's all just for fun, not for instigating change.

While the argument "he should shut up and start his own publishing company" is somewhat invalid in that it assumes that is the only solution, however it stems from the thought "Stop whining and do something about it".

And that's where the issue of feminism in games comes in. Anita's videos don't appear to be for the sake of entertainment like the Jimquisition so the questions must be asked.

What are these videos trying to achieve?
Are they achieving these goals?
What else could we be doing besides pointing out the issue incessantly to those that are already aware of it's existence?

The same arguments can be applied to forums threads both for and against the feminism in games debate.

 

[Grampy_bone]

That's such a cop-out argument, don't you think?

"If you don't like 'CTRL ALT DEL', why don't you make your own webcomic!!!? You can't write or draw? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Call of Duty', why don't you make your own AAA Game!?!?! You don't have millions of dollars and a team of 100 to create a AAA game? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Sexy Co-Eds 5', why don't you make your own po....actually, never mind on that one, that's not a bad idea..."

Anyway, I'm sure you get the idea. Saying "If you don't like what someone is doing, do it yourself" is great sounding advice but 100% impractical and kind of a silly thing to say.

The difference is that Anita isn't simply saying CTRL ALT DEL is a poor comic, she's saying CTRL ALT DEL is morally wrong and harmful to society, and needs to be changed to suit her personal tastes. That's exactly a kind of "put up or shut up" situation. She even cooked up a crappy game pitch and put it in a video, asking other people to make it for her (presumably with their own money while giving her the profits). It's like she has no friggin clue at all how this industry actually works.

1.) She makes no moral judgements about the aspects of games she criticizes. If you watched her videos at all, you would know that time and time again she emphasizes that the issues she is addressing do not make any of the games "bad" or "harmful", they're just questionable when viewed under a feminist lens. She does not want to bomb Nintendo's warehouses and leak diarrhea on all the copies of Zelda and Other M.

2.) The game "pitch" was a thought experiment, nothing more. What she is asking is: who would be harmed by such a game being made; why is something in this vein considered problematic?

Nope. She has flat-out stated that sexist games create sexist people. She believes videogames are a tool to brainwash people. Notice how she isn't against the brainwashing per se, she simply wishes the brainwashing was different.

 

[WenisPagon]

That's such a cop-out argument, don't you think?

"If you don't like 'CTRL ALT DEL', why don't you make your own webcomic!!!? You can't write or draw? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Call of Duty', why don't you make your own AAA Game!?!?! You don't have millions of dollars and a team of 100 to create a AAA game? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Sexy Co-Eds 5', why don't you make your own po....actually, never mind on that one, that's not a bad idea..."

Anyway, I'm sure you get the idea. Saying "If you don't like what someone is doing, do it yourself" is great sounding advice but 100% impractical and kind of a silly thing to say.

The difference is that Anita isn't simply saying CTRL ALT DEL is a poor comic, she's saying CTRL ALT DEL is morally wrong and harmful to society, and needs to be changed to suit her personal tastes. That's exactly a kind of "put up or shut up" situation. She even cooked up a crappy game pitch and put it in a video, asking other people to make it for her (presumably with their own money while giving her the profits). It's like she has no friggin clue at all how this industry actually works.

1.) She makes no moral judgements about the aspects of games she criticizes. If you watched her videos at all, you would know that time and time again she emphasizes that the issues she is addressing do not make any of the games "bad" or "harmful", they're just questionable when viewed under a feminist lens. She does not want to bomb Nintendo's warehouses and leak diarrhea on all the copies of Zelda and Other M.

2.) The game "pitch" was a thought experiment, nothing more. What she is asking is: who would be harmed by such a game being made; why is something in this vein considered problematic?

Nope. She has flat-out stated that sexist games create sexist people. She believes videogames are a tool to brainwash people. Notice how she isn't against the brainwashing per se, she simply wishes the brainwashing was different.

Cite where she is saying that.

 

[Yuuki]

Firstly Sarkeesian is not a videogame critic, Yahtzee is a videogame critic. None of Sarkeesian's stuff has anything to do with gameplay or even the actual game, 99.9% of her focus is on whether a female character is represented fairly or not. That's literally her only job. It should be pretty obvious considering how she ignores context and will take literally ANY scene of a female being depicted "negatively" and throw it into her videos. She's a very simple person with a very simple job.

So that specific type of critique/opinion really shouldn't bother anyone, especially considering how she completely ignores all feedback to her stuff and avoids communication in general (unless it's a one-way presentation/interview monologue). There's a reason why she does that.

Don't pay her any more attention than she deserves, i.e. don't make threads like these

Nope. She has flat-out stated that sexist games create sexist people. She believes videogames are a tool to brainwash people. Notice how she isn't against the brainwashing per se, she simply wishes the brainwashing was different.

Cite where she is saying that.

Her way of putting it was "we don't have a monkey see monkey do relationship with media", that it has a very "subtle and complicated" effect on cultural thinking, etc. She has to avoid flat-out saying it, but at the same time she has to make her video seem relevant to real life....otherwise all her videos can simply be countered with "And?" or "So what?" or "Who gives a shit, it's fiction". I think in one of her videos she said that showing brutalized women in games was irresponsible of developers because of how often women get brutalized IRL, i.e. she attempted to tie videogame violence to IRL violence.

^ Not defending her btw, that's what her defenders would say