Serious question for feminist critique of video games

[wulf3n]

Sorry, but if your business model actively alienates women then it's misogynistic and sexist by definition.

Not if the alienation is a byproduct as opposed to the intent. If I organize a party that only serves ham based foods i'm not being Anti-Semitic.

I see. Well, I doubt I can convince you to stop being so accepting of it.

Probably not

I'm sure not accepting of it. Then again it keeps getting rubbed in my face to my detriment so it's really hard to give in, and just take it. It's like the game industry's being a sore winner.

Starting to question the whole "sex sells" thing, too, thanks to Cracked, but I dunno. http://www.cracked.com/article_19373_5-ridiculous-sex-myths-everyone-believes_p2.html
Either way, I don't mind some eye candy, male or female. there's just too much, though.

Soon enough publishers will realize this on their own and start making games that appeal to a wider audience, or they'll collapse under an unsustainable business model and a new games industry will arise from the ashes.

 

[Fox12]

This is a broken argument. Not everyone can do that. I criticize the governmnet all the time, but that doesn't mean I can drop everything and go run for senate. If I'm honest, I wouldn't be a very good Senator. That doesn't mean my criticisms aren't valid. I hate most modern film, but that doesn't mean I can drop everything and go become an amateur film maker. Does that mean my criticism is not valid? Of course not.

Just because she's not a game designer doesn't mean she can't offer criticism. That said, I'm not the biggest Sarkeesian fan.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

I have been wondering the last few years why feminists like Sarkeesian complain that much about womens roles in video games. If she is so much against it and know so many other people are also against the way with men are portrayed in video games, why doesnt she just become a video game designer herself and rake in the money that other developers apparantly arent interested in?

I mean, if you really want to change something, why not change it instead of just complaining about it and telling others to fix it for you? Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women? Why doesnt she act on her options instead then? She got more money from her kickstarter than many indie devs have to spend on their games she she definatly has the means even if she cant code.

If she truly belives what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore, she should be looking at millions of game sales.

Sure, anita is not "all feminists" but I cant imagine that not a single of the people who complain about the portrayal of women in video games have the means to make their own line of games where women are portrayed the way they think women should be portrayed.

EDIT: I am NOT saying that if you dont like [media] then just make your own. I am saying that if you spent the better part of your like complaining about something and you have enough money to combat it by making a game the way you 7think it should be (or hireing people to do it for you if you have no design experience yourself), it is hypocritical not to do so . because you cant expect to have other people make the world better for you if you have the means yourself but just dont want to do it.

I think people are giving you too much flake for a genuine point. She's got the support base that'd thrown money at her, why doesn't she use that to fund the 'Princess saves the world' idea she spun in her one of her episodes? Since her names attached to it, it'd get a good amount of marketing by word of mouth.

And the argument of; "she's not a gmes designer" well I hate to break it to you people but lots of people aren't anything till they give it a try. Games didnt have stories, graphics, nuance until somebody gave it a try and proved people wanted it.

Stop sitting around with your thumbs up your butts and do something. It's what I'm doing, being an indie dev artist pays absolutely nothing and won't pay out for an estimated 5 years (unless you name ends wuth Schafer or Notch), but I'm fuckin' doing it anyway. You can either live comfortably doing nothing, or hard making stomething.

That's silly. Do you denounce everything Ebert has contributed to the film industry because he isn't a filmmaker? Audience criticism is absolutely essential to the progress of art.

You are literally criticizing criticism. Do you not see how contradictory that is?

I never made such an assertion, I'm a game artist, I get criticism on a daily basis. I'm merely adding to that it you want to envoke change then the best way to do that is to have a hand in the process. Critics and reviewers are reactionary, responding to the work after it has been made.

I was adding towards the notion that an argument is strengthened when you've got something to show that your idea can work. For example I'll take the advice from an artist who can create a gorgeous piece of art moreso than a hobbyist that can draw a 'rage comic'. Neither arguement is invalid, but put under scrutiny, one stands up better than the other.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Sorry, but if your business model actively alienates women then it's misogynistic and sexist by definition.

Not if the alienation is a byproduct as opposed to the intent. If I organize a party that only serves ham based foods i'm not being Anti-Semitic.

Not comparable. The analogy doesn't work with this subject. The only way to work a ham analogy would be if the ham had sentience and your ham party didn't include honey roasted because for generations prior, honey roasted was not taken seriously as a ham product.

No wait, it's just a shitty analogy.

The issue is systemic discrimination, which is worse then deliberate discrimination, because a system can not be compromised with, it must be de-constructed and rebuilt. Just because there isn't a nefarious moustache twirling misogynist behind all the industries woes does not mean the industry doesn't have problems. The problem IS the industry and the community build upon it, something rooted in it's history and the social climate it was formed in.

I know, it's easy to lose sight of the real issues when you periodically enter a forum that are quick peg individuals as monsters in human skin.

 

[Chemical Alia]

There's advantages to being outside the industry, for instance being in an industry while also critiquing it is difficult because you don't want to offend a potential employer. I've also read some critiques from some games devs which were poorly written and nonsensical.

You pretty much can't criticize anything when you work in the industry, because even if what you say has nothing to do with your employer or where you worked in the past, it can easily be misconstrued by others that it is. And if you do speak from experience, it's usually obvious to those who know you who or what you're talking about, and that can be unintentionally bad. People outside the industry are much more free to say what they want.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Sorry, but if your business model actively alienates women then it's misogynistic and sexist by definition.

Not if the alienation is a byproduct as opposed to the intent. If I organize a party that only serves ham based foods i'm not being Anti-Semitic.

I see. Well, I doubt I can convince you to stop being so accepting of it.

Probably not

I'm sure not accepting of it. Then again it keeps getting rubbed in my face to my detriment so it's really hard to give in, and just take it. It's like the game industry's being a sore winner.

Starting to question the whole "sex sells" thing, too, thanks to Cracked, but I dunno. http://www.cracked.com/article_19373_5-ridiculous-sex-myths-everyone-believes_p2.html
Either way, I don't mind some eye candy, male or female. there's just too much, though.

Soon enough publishers will realize this on their own and start making games that appeal to a wider audience, or they'll collapse under an unsustainable business model and a new games industry will arise from the ashes.

Honestly it looks like a little of both. Some companies will sink, some will swim.

Ubisoft's kinda promising in showing signs of recognition. Child of Light, and Assassins Creed Liberation coming to console in an HD remake is nice to see. Beyond Good And Evil 2 might have to wait until PS4/Xbone from what I read tho.

Of course there's CoD seeming to care a little with women in multiplayer that aren't underdressed compared to guys. It's not much but the power of inclusion is immense.

then there's bayonetta 2, and a tomb raider sequel, and Transistor.
We'll have to see what happens. Things are looking up, but I know better than to have high expectations.

 

[Azure23]

Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women?

This sentence alone demonstrates a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of what Feminism actually is. First and foremost Feminism is about equality, nothing more, nothing less. Sarkeesian has never claimed that she wanted agency taken from men, she'd be a pretty shitty Feminist if she said that. You don't take agency from one character in order to empower another, you just portray that character as capable of making their own decisions and acting on them, you know, like a real person.

 

[wulf3n]

Not comparable. The analogy doesn't work with this subject. The only way to work a ham analogy would be if the ham had sentience and your ham party didn't include honey roasted because for generations prior, honey roasted was not taken seriously as a ham product.

No wait, it's just a shitty analogy.

The issue is systemic discrimination, which is worse then deliberate discrimination, because a system can not be compromised with, it must be de-constructed and rebuilt. Just because there isn't a nefarious moustache twirling misogynist behind all the industries woes does not mean the industry doesn't have problems. The problem IS the industry and the community build upon it, something rooted in it's history and the social climate it was formed in.

I know, it's easy to lose sight of the real issues when you periodically enter a forum that are quick peg individuals as monsters in human skin.

How is it discrimination though?

I agree that there is a problem, but it's that games target only target a few demographics, not that they're attempting to prevent other demographics from playing games.

That's the point of the analogy. Sure some will be deterred but none are being prevented.

Honestly it looks like a little of both. Some companies will sink, some will swim.

Ubisoft's kinda promising in showing signs of recognition. Child of Light, and Assassins Creed Liberation coming to console in an HD remake is nice to see. Beyond Good And Evil 2 might have to wait until PS4/Xbone from what I read tho.

Of course there's CoD seeming to care a little with women in multiplayer that aren't underdressed compared to guys. It's not much but the power of inclusion is immense.

then there's bayonetta 2, and a tomb raider sequel, and Transistor.
We'll have to see what happens. Things are looking up, but I know better than to have high expectations.

Hopefully

 

[Redd the Sock]

Short version: it's a lot easier to complain ..er...critique than to create.

Long version: You aren't the only one questioning a lack of creative drive. As unsettling as it is, I have more respect for someone making nude mods of something like Skyrim than in all the feminist critique I've seen. Modders built. They learned the skills they needed to do so and created things they wanted. Even without personal skill, kickstarter exists for a reason, and for the right price, any indy developer would at least be willing to hear you out.

Yet when it comes to feminism issues, the idea of actually taking action yourself seems foreign. I could entertain conspiracy theories about how it all isn't about getting something they want, but in getting others to quit making what they don't, or act like an old curmudgeon and complain about how kids today only ever learned about getting things by whining until mommy and daddy bought them the toy they wanted, and while I'm sure there is some truth to those, I think it's largely something else.

Being an online critic is easy. Get a blog and write. Get a youtube channel and talk. Post of forums. All pretty much involve little more than venting your spleen at what's pissing you off without any form of editorial oversight. Best of all, if you get a following, you can pretty much make it your day job. So given that, which would you rather do: try and make a go of it telling others how they're screwing up, or put yourself out there to have those same critics rake you over the coals. Factoring in the effort to learn new skills, and both the initial cash outlay and long term financial risks involved, there's no surprise people would rather just sit at their computers and wag their fingers at others.

This isn't to malign critics or devalue decent criticism, just to point out most people would rather strive to be the next Yahtzee or Jim Stirling than the next David Cage or Shigieru Miyamoto. Some might even think that this is their way in like how it worked for Gail Simonne or the guy that created Wonder Woman. Still, I find more to respect in a doer than in that doesn't have skin in the game.

 

[Westaway]

It's a waste of time, but not for the reason you say. Video games are a product of late capitalism, like all media. Complaining about video games in particular is ridiculous because the things they are complaining about are present in all forms of media, and will continue to exist as long as our Western society is capitalist. Also, men and women will never be truly equal in society, no matter what the economic or government system is.

 

[Chemical Alia]

There's advantages to being outside the industry, for instance being in an industry while also critiquing it is difficult because you don't want to offend a potential employer. I've also read some critiques from some games devs which were poorly written and nonsensical.

You pretty much can't criticize anything when you work in the industry, because even if what you say has nothing to do with your employer or where you worked in the past, it can easily be misconstrued by others that it is. And if you do speak from experience, it's usually obvious to those who know you who or what you're talking about, and that can be unintentionally bad. People outside the industry are much more free to say what they want.

But hey, not everyone can say they made news like you did when you commented on Dragon Crowns art ~.^

Lol, yeah. Though if I'm going to make "news" about anything, I'd prefer it to be over something i actually give two shits about in the first place.

 

[Frankster]

The difference is that there is not a "culture" of violence in real life

Just like to say i disagree with this statement. There very much is a culture of violence, we glamorize it in our media (military fetish in particular is a thing) and it's not uncommon to fetichize weapons.

Not that i'd want to live in a totally sterile world where only the most innoffensive and banal thoughts are allowed (i love my blood and gore and t n a and other vile stuff, ty vm), but just wanted to refute this idea.

 

[Yopaz]

That's such a cop-out argument, don't you think?

"If you don't like 'CTRL ALT DEL', why don't you make your own webcomic!!!? You can't write or draw? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Call of Duty', why don't you make your own AAA Game!?!?! You don't have millions of dollars and a team of 100 to create a AAA game? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Sexy Co-Eds 5', why don't you make your own po....actually, never mind on that one, that's not a bad idea..."

Anyway, I'm sure you get the idea. Saying "If you don't like what someone is doing, do it yourself" is great sounding advice but 100% impractical and kind of a silly thing to say.

If you don't like this thread, why don't you make your own rather than complaining about how the OP is wrong?

Yeah, I agree very much with this. It's really counter productive to use the "make your own" argument. Also we should never elevate something above critique. Things can improve when the points that need to improve are pointed out. A good deal of the sexism in gaming wasn't clear to me before it was pointed out and it's that way for developers too. They need to know if they are to improve.

 

[Korolev]

That's sort of like saying "If you don't like police corruption, why aren't you a police officer?" "If you don't like how the government has handled things, why don't you be a politician?". There are many things to criticize, but we can usually only pick one career path. Asking feminists who critique video games to give up their other careers and passions and become video-game developers is asking a bit much.

The next time you criticize something, keep in mind that you could be asked "then why don't YOU do X or Y or Z to stop it? Become X or Y or Z, give up your life to follow that career path".

And criticizing is itself useful. Highlights problems.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

Don't like your government? Why not go overthrow it and make a new government? I mean, honestly, you have no right to criticize your government if you're not actively trying to overthrow and change it.

It has worked before. England and America wouldn't exist as we know them today if they didn't overthrow their corrupt governments.

I'm sure there are other example as well.

I don't like America, so I'm going to build my own America!

...Wasn't that the plot for Superman Returns?


And we all know how that went.

 

[WenisPagon]

The difference is that there is not a "culture" of violence in real life

Just like to say i disagree with this statement. There very much is a culture of violence, we glamorize it in our media (military fetish in particular is a thing) and it's not uncommon to fetichize weapons.

Not that i'd want to live in a totally sterile world where only the most innoffensive and banal thoughts are allowed (i love my blood and gore and t n a and other vile stuff, ty vm), but just wanted to refute this idea.

What I'm saying is that violence for the sake of violence must be handwaved or justified to be acceptable. You would never be able to engage in acts of violence without riding on the justification of another cultural construct, such as religion or politics. As a solitary act violence is universally condemned, while bigotry often sneaks by or is tacitly accepted.