Serious question for feminist critique of video games

WenisPagon

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Yuuki said:
Her way of putting it was "we don't have a monkey see monkey do relationship with media", that it has a very "subtle and complicated" effect on cultural thinking, etc. She has to avoid flat-out saying it, but at the same time she has to make her video seem relevant to real life....otherwise all her videos can simply be countered with "And?" or "So what?" or "Who gives a shit, it's fiction". I think in one of her videos she said that showing brutalized women in games was irresponsible of developers because of how often women get brutalized IRL, i.e. she attempted to tie videogame violence to IRL violence.
Ah, I remember where she brought that up. She was referring to this effect:


Games and other forms of media do have subtle effects on our perspectives; to claim otherwise is to fly in the face of all sorts of marketing research and analysis.
 

Grampy_bone

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ClownBaby said:
Grampy_bone said:
TekMoney said:
Grampy_bone said:
tippy2k2 said:
Jim Sterling's videos are pretty popular on this site, yes? Jim Sterling often criticizes EA for practices he believes to be harmful to the industry. Would you tell him that he should shut up and start his own publishing company?
First off, I'm no Jim Sterling fan.

Also: EVERY game critic wishes they could make a videogame. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

Jim Sterling is a critic. Anita Sarkesian is a social justice warrior! Jim Sterling entertains. Anita Sarkesian wants to (her words) tear down the boys club!! Jim Sterling makes videos for fun. Anita Sarkesian collects money to make videos, uses that money to make a game pitch, puts the pitch in her video, then asks other people to make the game with their own money.

Do you see the difference? Jim Sterling likes to voice his opinions about stuff. Does Jim Sterling ever say that EA's actions are harming the moral fiber of our children? No. Anita is *demanding* industry-wide changes based on her own personal tastes and attempting to shroud her prejudices in moral superiority.

You can't disregard context. If Anita were just another internet critic your analogy argument would be right. But she's not. She's the face of feminism and sexism in gaming, and she's making demands.

And people are listening.
Yup Jim Sterling doesn't get pain or make a living off of his work. It's just a bunch fun-diddly-dee for him. That's why he puts out videos every week and asks that you don't have ad block, because it's just so fun for him.

Game critics are all going into the games industry and making their own games. I can name like two or three game critics who have made games, Greg Kasavin is really the only one I can pull off the top of my head.

How is Jim not making demands by the way? He's out there telling people what they should or should not do. He says how the actions of EA or even rabid fanboys are harming the industry and that they should change. How is Sarkisian any less of a critic because she has a different point of view or a different point to make?
You asked how they were different, I explained, now you asked how they were different again. Um, read what I already wrote? Context my friend, context.
 

Grampy_bone

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WenisPagon said:
Yuuki said:
Her way of putting it was "we don't have a monkey see monkey do relationship with media", that it has a very "subtle and complicated" effect on cultural thinking, etc. She has to avoid flat-out saying it, but at the same time she has to make her video seem relevant to real life....otherwise all her videos can simply be countered with "And?" or "So what?" or "Who gives a shit, it's fiction". I think in one of her videos she said that showing brutalized women in games was irresponsible of developers because of how often women get brutalized IRL, i.e. she attempted to tie videogame violence to IRL violence.
Ah, I remember where she brought that up. She was referring to this effect:


Games and other forms of media do have subtle effects on our perspectives; to claim otherwise is to fly in the face of all sorts of marketing research and analysis.
The problem I have with this is that no one accepts that violent games create violence, yet everyone seems fine with the idea that sexist games create sexism. It's almost like the person who is making the argument determines it's validity, rather than the argument itself...
 

WenisPagon

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Grampy_bone said:
WenisPagon said:
Yuuki said:
Her way of putting it was "we don't have a monkey see monkey do relationship with media", that it has a very "subtle and complicated" effect on cultural thinking, etc. She has to avoid flat-out saying it, but at the same time she has to make her video seem relevant to real life....otherwise all her videos can simply be countered with "And?" or "So what?" or "Who gives a shit, it's fiction". I think in one of her videos she said that showing brutalized women in games was irresponsible of developers because of how often women get brutalized IRL, i.e. she attempted to tie videogame violence to IRL violence.
Ah, I remember where she brought that up. She was referring to this effect:


Games and other forms of media do have subtle effects on our perspectives; to claim otherwise is to fly in the face of all sorts of marketing research and analysis.
The problem I have with this is that no one accepts that violent games create violence, yet everyone seems fine with the idea that sexist games create sexism. It's almost like the person who is making the argument determines it's validity, rather than the argument itself...
The difference is that there is not a "culture" of violence in real life, whereas there is an actual culture of bigotry in the world that video games sometimes (usually inadvertently!) feed off of.

As an example, the wave of brown military shooters introduced Muslim-themed insults to the general XBox Live community, where clever witticisms like "turban-headed ******" remain popular.
 

BreakfastMan

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Grampy_bone said:
The problem I have with this is that no one accepts that violent games create violence, yet everyone seems fine with the idea that sexist games create sexism. It's almost like the person who is making the argument determines it's validity, rather than the argument itself...
Might it be that it is because actions(violence) are different than ideas(sexism)? That might have something to do with it...
 

Xanadu84

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Yeah why DOESN'T she just drop her video series, learn programming, get the equiptment, get a few million dollars, hire other like-minded programmers (A field of study which itself is not female friendly, come up with a idea for an entire game, design and playtest the game, get picked up by a major publisher, get ANOTHER couple of million dollars from publishers who traditionally run away screaming from the mere mention of a female protagonist for PR and marketing, go through several years of development in order to put out a game that is not only a risky new IP, but a risky new set of narrative tropes that will be lambasted by a large section of the internet, and will ultimately carry with it the weight of the entire concept of feminism in gaming on its shoulders for a fledgling designers freshman attempt at a game?

When this happens, I will IMMEDIATELY buy this game, because that sounds fascinating. But if we want this to happen, there is a lot of institutional problems that need to be addressed first. Sure, it can be done, but where we are right now, its difficult. And even more importantly, when this does happen, what will change is that people naming strong, realistic female characters that are there for more than their sex appeal will get to add this new character onto a list that consists pretty much of Jade and Alyx Vance (Yes, your list may vary, but Ill bet it's short). The main criticism of these critics is that we need to see better portrayals of females REGULARLY.
 

EtherealBeaver

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TekMoney said:
For future reference, that's the moment where you lost all credibility.
I thank you for your kind words and await your actual arguments with anticipitation. The fact that I share his views on that particular topic changes nothing. If he has the views, belives them to be right and has the possibilities to change them then he should act on it. Period.

Edit: Also, you quite clearly ignored the rest of the post which strongly indicted the first line to be satire. If you didnt get it now; it was satire (and strongly demonstrated in the very next line at that)
 

captainballsack

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EtherealBeaver said:
I have been wondering the last few years why feminists like Sarkeesian complain that much about womens roles in video games. If she is so much against it and know so many other people are also against the way women are portrayed in video games, why doesnt she just become a video game designer herself and rake in the money that other developers apparantly arent interested in?

I mean, if you really want to change something, why not change it instead of just complaining about it and telling others to fix it for you? Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women? Why doesnt she act on her options instead then? She got more money from her kickstarter than many indie devs have to spend on their games she she definatly has the means even if she cant code.

If she truly belives what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore, she should be looking at millions of game sales.

Sure, anita is not "all feminists" but I cant imagine that not a single of the people who complain about the portrayal of women in video games have the means to make their own line of games where women are portrayed the way they think women should be portrayed.

EDIT: I am NOT saying that if you dont like [media] then just make your own. I am saying that if you spent the better part of your like complaining about something and you have enough money to combat it by making a game the way you think it should be (or hireing people to do it for you if you have no design experience yourself), it is hypocritical not to do so . because you cant expect to have other people make the world better for you if you have the means yourself but just dont want to do it.
I think where you're argument falls through here is when you use the word 'complain' as opposed to 'criticize.'

Sarkeesian criticizes, that has always been very clear. She makes her point intelligently, calmly and academically. If she is complaining, then by that logic, you are complaining, as opposed to criticizing, as well.

Is Yahtzee complaining? No, but he's closer to complaining than Sarkeesian is. People are entitled to be critics, and criticism is important; most of the time outsider criticism is necessary for any progression to be made, so it is actually probably better that Sarkeesian isn't a game dev, because a game dev, just like a filmmaker, has a skewed player (or viewer) experience.

Of course, there is some merit to what you are saying. The best criticism is through example, but you can't say that Sarkeesian is void of that, as she has pitched game ideas in the past and developed solutions to the problems she's acknowledged.
 

TekMoney

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EtherealBeaver said:
TekMoney said:
For future reference, that's the moment where you lost all credibility.
I thank you for your kind words and await your actual arguments with anticipitation. The fact that I share his views on that particular topic changes nothing. If he has the views, belives them to be right and has the possibilities to change them then he should act on it. Period.
Well, you said you would tell him that he should start his own publishing company IF you didn't share his views. Which implies you're only telling Anita Sarkeesian she should do it herself because you disagree with her.

Anyone you agree with is fine to just stand on the sidelines and critique. But if you're not on they're side then they can't do that. They have to do this difficult thing or they should shut up.
 

WenisPagon

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EtherealBeaver said:
TekMoney said:
For future reference, that's the moment where you lost all credibility.
I thank you for your kind words and await your actual arguments with anticipitation. The fact that I share his views on that particular topic changes nothing. If he has the views, belives them to be right and has the possibilities to change them then he should act on it. Period.
So, humor a thought experiment. Say that you believe that some fictional country, say, Kinkydink, is performing unspeakable acts of cruelty to its prisoners of war, and you want to stop that.

Would you book a flight to Kinkydink and yell at people taller than you holding semiautomatic weapons to stop being jerks while they stand there staring vapidly at you, or start a PR campaign to raise awareness for Kinkydink atrocities?
 

EtherealBeaver

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captainballsack said:
EtherealBeaver said:
I have been wondering the last few years why feminists like Sarkeesian complain that much about womens roles in video games. If she is so much against it and know so many other people are also against the way women are portrayed in video games, why doesnt she just become a video game designer herself and rake in the money that other developers apparantly arent interested in?

I mean, if you really want to change something, why not change it instead of just complaining about it and telling others to fix it for you? Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women? Why doesnt she act on her options instead then? She got more money from her kickstarter than many indie devs have to spend on their games she she definatly has the means even if she cant code.

If she truly belives what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore, she should be looking at millions of game sales.

Sure, anita is not "all feminists" but I cant imagine that not a single of the people who complain about the portrayal of women in video games have the means to make their own line of games where women are portrayed the way they think women should be portrayed.

EDIT: I am NOT saying that if you dont like [media] then just make your own. I am saying that if you spent the better part of your like complaining about something and you have enough money to combat it by making a game the way you think it should be (or hireing people to do it for you if you have no design experience yourself), it is hypocritical not to do so . because you cant expect to have other people make the world better for you if you have the means yourself but just dont want to do it.
If think where you're argument falls through here is when you use the word 'complain' as opposed to 'criticize.'

Sarkeesian criticizes, that has always been very clear. She makes her point intelligently, calmly and academically. If she is complaining, then by that logic, you are complaining, as opposed to criticizing, as well.

Is Yahtzee complaining? No, but he's closer to complaining than Sarkeesian is. People are entitled to be critics, and criticism is important; most of the time outsider criticism is necessary for any progression to be made, so it is actually probably better that Sarkeesian isn't a game dev, because a game dev, just like a filmmaker, has a skewed player (or viewer) experience.
"Academically" is a pretty strong word for someone so clearly caught up in information bias that she named her entire project after what she was expecting to find. I understand your post but i also belive it ignores the vast problems she encounters when looking at her points in an academic light.

As for the difference between critique and complain, it feels like a cop out to be frank. I cant say with any authority that there is or isnt a difference from a semantic point of view but from an idiomatic point if view, I strongly belive that there is not

(idiomatic meaning "Using, containing, or denoting expressions that are natural to a native speaker: "distinctive idiomatic dialogue"." . just wanted to make sure I wasnt misunderstood)
 

wulf3n

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WenisPagon said:
So, humor a thought experiment. Say that you believe that some fictional country, say, Kinkydink, is performing unspeakable acts of cruelty to its prisoners of war, and you want to stop that.

Would you book a flight to Kinkydink and yell at people taller than you holding semiautomatic weapons to stop being jerks while they stand there staring vapidly at you, or start a PR campaign to raise awareness for Kinkydink atrocities?
The real question is what are you going to do when Kinkydink just flat out ignores your PR campaign?
 

WenisPagon

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wulf3n said:
WenisPagon said:
So, humor a thought experiment. Say that you believe that some fictional country, say, Kinkydink, is performing unspeakable acts of cruelty to its prisoners of war, and you want to stop that.

Would you book a flight to Kinkydink and yell at people taller than you holding semiautomatic weapons to stop being jerks while they stand there staring vapidly at you, or start a PR campaign to raise awareness for Kinkydink atrocities?
The real question is what are you going to do when Kinkydink just flat out ignores your PR campaign?
Aha! But Kinkydink isn't the target of your campaign! You are trying to sway the neighboring neutral state of Mixdix, who is far better equipped to bargain with Kinkydink than your lonesome self.
 

EtherealBeaver

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WenisPagon said:
EtherealBeaver said:
TekMoney said:
For future reference, that's the moment where you lost all credibility.
I thank you for your kind words and await your actual arguments with anticipitation. The fact that I share his views on that particular topic changes nothing. If he has the views, belives them to be right and has the possibilities to change them then he should act on it. Period.
So, humor a thought experiment. Say that you believe that some fictional country, say, Kinkydink, is performing unspeakable acts of cruelty to its prisoners of war, and you want to stop that.

Would you book a flight to Kinkydink and yell at people taller than you holding semiautomatic weapons to stop being jerks while they stand there staring vapidly at you, or start a PR campaign to raise awareness for Kinkydink atrocities?
If i felt strongly for it and worked the better part of my life against it, I would take whatever action I was reasonably able to take against it. Being a poor student I would try and collect signatures, being a well off banker I would donate money to whomever was combating it in a financial way and being a politician I would work through whatever diplomatic way I could find.

What matters is what you do with the means you have got and the effort you put into it and Anita obviously have quite the incentment to put effort into it (as long as she is getting paid at least)
 

Seydaman

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wulf3n said:
seydaman said:
Don't like your government? Why not go overthrow it and make a new government? I mean, honestly, you have no right to criticize your government if you're not actively trying to overthrow and change it.
It has worked before. England and America wouldn't exist as we know them today if they didn't overthrow their corrupt governments.

I'm sure there are other example as well.
Well, of course there are. But that's not the point.

The point is that you can criticize something and be valid in that criticism without having to be an active force in its change. Actually, criticism is an active force. You don't have to be directly involved in a way that people consider directly involved.
 

WenisPagon

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EtherealBeaver said:
WenisPagon said:
EtherealBeaver said:
TekMoney said:
For future reference, that's the moment where you lost all credibility.
I thank you for your kind words and await your actual arguments with anticipitation. The fact that I share his views on that particular topic changes nothing. If he has the views, belives them to be right and has the possibilities to change them then he should act on it. Period.
So, humor a thought experiment. Say that you believe that some fictional country, say, Kinkydink, is performing unspeakable acts of cruelty to its prisoners of war, and you want to stop that.

Would you book a flight to Kinkydink and yell at people taller than you holding semiautomatic weapons to stop being jerks while they stand there staring vapidly at you, or start a PR campaign to raise awareness for Kinkydink atrocities?
If i felt strongly for it and worked the better part of my life against it, I would take whatever action I was reasonably able to take against it. Being a poor student I would try and collect signatures, being a well off banker I would donate money to whomever was combating it in a financial way and being a politician I would work through whatever diplomatic way I could find.

What matters is what you do with the means you have got and the effort you put into it and Anita obviously have quite the incentment to put effort into it (as long as she is getting paid at least)
A fine view. But the contradiction is simple: Why do you expect more of Anita and Feminist Frequency than they can reasonably supply with their current resources? To make their own BEST FEMINIST GAME would be a massive undertaking that they are currently unequipped for, being critics and not designers. Much like how in the thought experiment, you were a single individual, not an army.
 

wulf3n

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WenisPagon said:
Aha! But Kinkydink isn't the target of your campaign! You are trying to sway the neighboring neutral state of Mixdix, who is far better equipped to bargain with Kinkydink than your lonesome self.
Okay so let's say Mixdix don't care. You petition them, and they say "So what, they're not our soldiers!" what do you do then?

seydaman said:
The point is that you can criticize something and be valid in that criticism without having to be an active force in its change. Actually, criticism is an active force. You don't have to be directly involved in a way that people consider directly involved.
In some areas yes, interestingly the democratic Government is probably one of the best examples of something that is best changed through criticism.

But the entertainment industry, especially the Blockbuster or AAA not so much. At least not in my observation. They play it safe and target the biggest demographic, the criticism from a minority isn't going to change their market research.