Serious question for feminist critique of video games

Bakuryukun

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This is a poor argument. This whole "Oh man, if you don't like this trend in games why don't you make your own game" is just naive and childish. One person making a game when they don't have the proper skill set to make a game isn't going to do anything for anyone except put a mediocre game out to slaughter. If it was as simple as just "doing it yourself" why wouldn't hundreds of people already done so? Why would any trope even still exist if it was so easy?

Making videogames isn't a simple endeavor just wanting a overdone trope to not be there does not suddenly qualify you to make a good game, and just because a person CAN'T make their own game, shouldn't make their opinions and criticisms invalid.
 

Vegosiux

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NortherWolf said:
Edit: Removed, derailing the topic through conflict isn't what I was after.
That's okay. I've got the full post in my inbox when the quote notification popped up. I'm going to forget about this one, but I would politely request that next time you go for proper discussion as opposed to a full assault on my person and my integrity if you want to make a point.
 

EternallyBored

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Yuuki said:
senordesol said:
Snip
Estelindis said:
Robert Marrs said:
In my opinion, that is irrelevant. Firstly, she did not ask for an exorbitant amount. Secondly, people freely chose to support her project and there's nothing wrong about that; people are entitled to spend their money on whatever they choose. Third, her obligation is to use the Kickstarter money to fulfil the promises that she made to her backers, not to please anyone else. If, once the series is done and she has fulfilled those promises, she still has some of the money left over (I think I'd be quite surprised if this wasn't the case), then she is then entitled to do whatever she pleases with it (though if she chose to funnel some of it into games that would do a better job on gender compared to those she's criticised then I think it would reflect well on her). Finally, the phrase "professional victim" is insulting on several levels. It implies that you have more of a problem with the abused than with her abusers and that those who backed her project were stupid and didn't know what they were doing. They knew. They chose. (I sincerely doubt that anyone who backed the project when it was at $100k believed that it would be impossible to make the videos if it wasn't funded further - but they chose to give extra money anyway.) If what other people freely choose to do with their money bothers you, then I suggest that you find a way to cope with it.

Regarding the schedule of her videos, personally I do not have a problem with it. But then I'm used to waiting for George R. R. Martin books.
I'm not sure why I keep seeing people who expect her to have made a video worth 150 thousand dollars, when her original kickstarter goal was only about 6 thousand, which she wanted so she could buy a lot of video games to do her research. Just throwing money at something doesn't automatically make it better, giving someone a hundred times what they asked for and then expecting them to instantly know how to use that money in the best possible manner is foolish. She's not going to magically become a better video maker just because she got more money, and most professional producers and documentary style makers will require a hell of a lot more than 150K to turn out a professional product. Part of the delay, in her words at least, seems to be trying to find ways to use that money to improve the series. Given, that her previous experience is limited to free youtube videos, I don't think there's going to be any major change in their quality, I wouldn't be surprised if she honestly just has no idea what to do with the money.

Like Estelindis said, her backers probably aren't actually expecting a 150k video series out of her, they donated as a, "take that!" against the people harassing her, given the media coverage that led up to her kickstarter exploding in donations, I would be willing to bet that a good number of her major backers won't even watch the videos, they care more about the statement than the end result and probably stopped paying attention as soon as Anita was out of the news, their goal was satisfied when they showed support for someone receiving death threats.

Did she need that original 6k to make her current series? That's a far more fair question, and honestly, given what she's shown so far, I don't really see why she needed to actually play any of the games displayed, a trip to wikipedia, Youtube Let's Plays, and posting on message boards for people who have played those games would have accomplished the same goal. The point of her series seems to be looking at trends and tropes in video games and breaking them down for academic analysis, none of that actually requires that she play the whole game herself, she's analyzing the story, not the gameplay, she can get story information without actually playing the games discussed, especially when all that's being discussed are industry trends, rather than in depth analysis of individual games.
 

Redd the Sock

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EtherealBeaver said:
EDIT: I am NOT saying that if you dont like [media] then just make your own. I am saying that if you spent the better part of your like complaining about something and you have enough money to combat it by making a game the way you think it should be (or hireing people to do it for you if you have no design experience yourself), it is hypocritical not to do so . because you cant expect to have other people make the world better for you if you have the means yourself but just dont want to do it.
There's an old political observation: a lot of congressmen are hated, yet run unopposed. I won't limit things to people are lazy, but they've lost the ability to dream and act big. They see problems are too big and insurmountable such that even taking small steps are a waste of time. Angry mobs are in their minds more effective than little actions that might add up. Hence, we get people that would rather protest government rather than try and run it: they're afraid of failure, either in the running, or that they'll be a lone voice unable to achieve anything.

Making their own game leads to the same fears. They're afraid that making a single game won't change anything, or won't be the success the think it will. Given that, yes, there are a number of indy games out there that don't seem to attract the female gamer market to a large degree, the fear may not be unjustified. Sadly, this means that instead of many stepping up, no one does. We've been brainwashed into believing two dangerous words: I can't.
 

Redd the Sock

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Wandering_Hero said:
Redd the Sock said:
EtherealBeaver said:
EDIT: I am NOT saying that if you dont like [media] then just make your own. I am saying that if you spent the better part of your like complaining about something and you have enough money to combat it by making a game the way you think it should be (or hireing people to do it for you if you have no design experience yourself), it is hypocritical not to do so . because you cant expect to have other people make the world better for you if you have the means yourself but just dont want to do it.
There's an old political observation: a lot of congressmen are hated, yet run unopposed. I won't limit things to people are lazy, but they've lost the ability to dream and act big. They see problems are too big and insurmountable such that even taking small steps are a waste of time. Angry mobs are in their minds more effective than little actions that might add up. Hence, we get people that would rather protest government rather than try and run it: they're afraid of failure, either in the running, or that they'll be a lone voice unable to achieve anything.

Making their own game leads to the same fears. They're afraid that making a single game won't change anything, or won't be the success the think it will. Given that, yes, there are a number of indy games out there that don't seem to attract the female gamer market to a large degree, the fear may not be unjustified. Sadly, this means that instead of many stepping up, no one does. We've been brainwashed into believing two dangerous words: I can't.
So have you run for politics and made any life changing games? I mean I'm sure its that easy
Nice deflection. I'm not the one spending my time and efforts and yes, money, to make videos to essentially complain about shit rather than work in the system. People that don't like the "make your own" arguement try to compare it to big things, but it has a spoiled child angle too. If you were thirsty and just complained about it to try and get me to bring you a drink, damn straight I'd tell you to get your ass of the couch and do it yourself. I said earlier in this thread that people complain precisely because it is easier and provides instant attention, and while I don't deny that sometimes it's all you've got, but too many jump right to the easy approach.
 

senordesol

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Redd the Sock said:
Wandering_Hero said:
Redd the Sock said:
EtherealBeaver said:
EDIT: I am NOT saying that if you dont like [media] then just make your own. I am saying that if you spent the better part of your like complaining about something and you have enough money to combat it by making a game the way you think it should be (or hireing people to do it for you if you have no design experience yourself), it is hypocritical not to do so . because you cant expect to have other people make the world better for you if you have the means yourself but just dont want to do it.
There's an old political observation: a lot of congressmen are hated, yet run unopposed. I won't limit things to people are lazy, but they've lost the ability to dream and act big. They see problems are too big and insurmountable such that even taking small steps are a waste of time. Angry mobs are in their minds more effective than little actions that might add up. Hence, we get people that would rather protest government rather than try and run it: they're afraid of failure, either in the running, or that they'll be a lone voice unable to achieve anything.

Making their own game leads to the same fears. They're afraid that making a single game won't change anything, or won't be the success the think it will. Given that, yes, there are a number of indy games out there that don't seem to attract the female gamer market to a large degree, the fear may not be unjustified. Sadly, this means that instead of many stepping up, no one does. We've been brainwashed into believing two dangerous words: I can't.
So have you run for politics and made any life changing games? I mean I'm sure its that easy
Nice deflection. I'm not the one spending my time and efforts and yes, money, to make videos to essentially complain about shit rather than work in the system. People that don't like the "make your own" arguement try to compare it to big things, but it has a spoiled child angle too. If you were thirsty and just complained about it to try and get me to bring you a drink, damn straight I'd tell you to get your ass of the couch and do it yourself. I said earlier in this thread that people complain precisely because it is easier and provides instant attention, and while I don't deny that sometimes it's all you've got, but too many jump right to the easy approach.
Jumping right to the 'easy approach' isn't necessarily a bad thing, you know. The world is filled with critics, and while they may not be filmmakers, game developers, or artists themselves; their input -to some degree- helps to shape the industries they critique.

Critics aren't the 'thirsty layabouts' of your metaphor, they are a reflection of the demands of the market. If you went to a restaurant, expecting a modicum of service for your dollar, asked the waiter for an entree and he told you to 'make it yourself'; you'd review the restaurant as severely lacking and rightly so -regardless of your ability to create the entree in question yourself. So too when you find certain elements you value missing from a medium you enjoy; simply bringing it up is no great sin.
 

DudeistBelieve

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tippy2k2 said:
That's such a cop-out argument, don't you think?

"If you don't like 'CTRL ALT DEL', why don't you make your own webcomic!!!? You can't write or draw? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Call of Duty', why don't you make your own AAA Game!?!?! You don't have millions of dollars and a team of 100 to create a AAA game? Too bad, that's the only option!"
"If you don't like 'Sexy Co-Eds 5', why don't you make your own po....actually, never mind on that one, that's not a bad idea..."

Anyway, I'm sure you get the idea. Saying "If you don't like what someone is doing, do it yourself" is great sounding advice but 100% impractical and kind of a silly thing to say.
I don't know. It seems so easy to critique and *****.

And hey, it's not like she doesn't have an audience that pays for her crap. She could easily design a concept, do a kickstarter and then put a small team together to create an indy game.

bare in mind it's not like she's complaining about a specific game, she's bitching about the whole genre.

briankoontz said:
EtherealBeaver said:
I have been wondering the last few years why feminists like Sarkeesian complain that much about womens roles in video games. If she is so much against it and know so many other people are also against the way women are portrayed in video games, why doesnt she just become a video game designer herself and rake in the money that other developers apparantly arent interested in?

I mean, if you really want to change something, why not change it instead of just complaining about it and telling others to fix it for you? Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women? Why doesnt she act on her options instead then? She got more money from her kickstarter than many indie devs have to spend on their games she she definatly has the means even if she cant code.

If she truly belives what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore, she should be looking at millions of game sales.

Sure, anita is not "all feminists" but I cant imagine that not a single of the people who complain about the portrayal of women in video games have the means to make their own line of games where women are portrayed the way they think women should be portrayed.
That's a very old and very tired argument that could use some death. It's the only time that argument is ever used in any line of thought.

Lots of artists don't like critics, but the response of critics to them is never "if you don't like criticism, become a critic yourself and change it!".

Being a critic requires a certain set of skills and way of thinking that is unrelated to the production of art. It makes absolutely no sense to require that every critic become an artist - if they wanted to be an artist they would be an artist. They are a critic because that's what they want to be.

There is *some* crossover between criticism of art and the production of art, but there's nothing that suggests that one has to be the other.

But of course this isn't a serious proposal in the first place. It's just an attempt by someone who doesn't like Anita Sarkeesian to "help" her. She's had plenty of "help" over the months, which has amounted to absolutely nothing.
No, the response to critics is just to ignore them. Not to placate them. I think Kevin Smith was right on, he doesn't need the critics because his fanbase will turn up no matter what, so if they want to review his movies they can buy a ticket like everybody else.
 

Redd the Sock

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senordesol said:
Redd the Sock said:
Wandering_Hero said:
Redd the Sock said:
EtherealBeaver said:
EDIT: I am NOT saying that if you dont like [media] then just make your own. I am saying that if you spent the better part of your like complaining about something and you have enough money to combat it by making a game the way you think it should be (or hireing people to do it for you if you have no design experience yourself), it is hypocritical not to do so . because you cant expect to have other people make the world better for you if you have the means yourself but just dont want to do it.
There's an old political observation: a lot of congressmen are hated, yet run unopposed. I won't limit things to people are lazy, but they've lost the ability to dream and act big. They see problems are too big and insurmountable such that even taking small steps are a waste of time. Angry mobs are in their minds more effective than little actions that might add up. Hence, we get people that would rather protest government rather than try and run it: they're afraid of failure, either in the running, or that they'll be a lone voice unable to achieve anything.

Making their own game leads to the same fears. They're afraid that making a single game won't change anything, or won't be the success the think it will. Given that, yes, there are a number of indy games out there that don't seem to attract the female gamer market to a large degree, the fear may not be unjustified. Sadly, this means that instead of many stepping up, no one does. We've been brainwashed into believing two dangerous words: I can't.
So have you run for politics and made any life changing games? I mean I'm sure its that easy
Nice deflection. I'm not the one spending my time and efforts and yes, money, to make videos to essentially complain about shit rather than work in the system. People that don't like the "make your own" arguement try to compare it to big things, but it has a spoiled child angle too. If you were thirsty and just complained about it to try and get me to bring you a drink, damn straight I'd tell you to get your ass of the couch and do it yourself. I said earlier in this thread that people complain precisely because it is easier and provides instant attention, and while I don't deny that sometimes it's all you've got, but too many jump right to the easy approach.
Jumping right to the 'easy approach' isn't necessarily a bad thing, you know. The world is filled with critics, and while they may not be filmmakers, game developers, or artists themselves; their input -to some degree- helps to shape the industries they critique.

Critics aren't the 'thirsty layabouts' of your metaphor, they are a reflection of the demands of the market. If you went to a restaurant, expecting a modicum of service for your dollar, asked the waiter for an entree and he told you to 'make it yourself'; you'd review the restaurant as severely lacking and rightly so -regardless of your ability to create the entree in question yourself. So too when you find certain elements you value missing from a medium you enjoy; simply bringing it up is no great sin.
Honestly, when I eat out I expect that what is on the menu is what I'm allowed, and I'm on my own for anything other than minor alterations. ie: I'm allowed to ask for no onions and extra pickles at McDonalds, I'm not allowed to ask them to make me spaghetti. Now, I'm within my rights to suggest a pasta menu, but if I'm told no, and I keep asking, I'd be a spoiled brat. Other faults would involve vilifying burgers and those that ate them, or if I do get some pasta, complaining it isn't exactly right.

I don't mean to entirely malign critics or criticism, but I started in the thread by pointing out there's a whole modding community making what they want, and kickstarter making small projects possible on one side, and a movement of people on the other that wants to make videos, blog posts, and forum comments to try and get others to build for them, and the point of the topic was to question why group B doesn't take group A's actions more often, and I've yet to hear anything that isn't in one form or another some variant of "I expect someone else to do for me."
 

gilgamesh310

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EtherealBeaver said:
I have been wondering the last few years why feminists like Sarkeesian complain that much about womens roles in video games. If she is so much against it and know so many other people are also against the way women are portrayed in video games, why doesnt she just become a video game designer herself and rake in the money that other developers apparantly arent interested in?

I mean, if you really want to change something, why not change it instead of just complaining about it and telling others to fix it for you? Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women? Why doesnt she act on her options instead then? She got more money from her kickstarter than many indie devs have to spend on their games she she definatly has the means even if she cant code.

If she truly belives what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore, she should be looking at millions of game sales.

Sure, anita is not "all feminists" but I cant imagine that not a single of the people who complain about the portrayal of women in video games have the means to make their own line of games where women are portrayed the way they think women should be portrayed.

EDIT: I am NOT saying that if you dont like [media] then just make your own. I am saying that if you spent the better part of your like complaining about something and you have enough money to combat it by making a game the way you think it should be (or hireing people to do it for you if you have no design experience yourself), it is hypocritical not to do so . because you cant expect to have other people make the world better for you if you have the means yourself but just dont want to do it.
She's not a real feminist, just a con artist and it's easier for her to make money that way as she clearly hasn't the first clue of games at all.
 

senordesol

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Redd the Sock said:
Honestly, when I eat out I expect that what is on the menu is what I'm allowed, and I'm on my own for anything other than minor alterations. ie: I'm allowed to ask for no onions and extra pickles at McDonalds, I'm not allowed to ask them to make me spaghetti. Now, I'm within my rights to suggest a pasta menu, but if I'm told no, and I keep asking, I'd be a spoiled brat. Other faults would involve vilifying burgers and those that ate them, or if I do get some pasta, complaining it isn't exactly right.

I don't mean to entirely malign critics or criticism, but I started in the thread by pointing out there's a whole modding community making what they want, and kickstarter making small projects possible on one side, and a movement of people on the other that wants to make videos, blog posts, and forum comments to try and get others to build for them, and the point of the topic was to question why group B doesn't take group A's actions more often, and I've yet to hear anything that isn't in one form or another some variant of "I expect someone else to do for me."
To say 'I expect someone else to do it for me' implies some duty that one has decided to shirk (i.e. My rent's due, but I don't expect to have to pay). That is not the case here. Ms. Sarkeesian, so far as anyone is concerned, is mute unless you voluntarily make the decision to click on one of her videos (or a thread dedicated to the response of her videos). As such, she is no different from the Nostalgia Critic, Angry Joe, or Linkara wherein they make their commentary and you can choose to agree with their analysis or not.

She has no direct leverage over anyone in (or responsibility to) the games industry.

Now don't get me wrong, had she built and sold her own game or mod at some point (or even worked on a game as an employee or contractor); she'd be much more qualified to talk about the state of the industry. Her word would carry far more weight, and that's fine. But whether she has or hasn't doesn't invalidate any salient point or legitimate complaint she might have that's worth discussion.
 

Yuuki

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gilgamesh310 said:
She's not a real feminist
I think Anita is a perfect example of what feminism is today, so that makes her about as real as feminists get :)
 

Vegosiux

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Wandering_Hero said:
Making a game takes more than just the money she gathered from the kickstarter.
It really doesn't.

Making a big-budget AAA blockbuster on the other hand? Yeah.

What makes you think she can do it so easily when you can't? How likely is it some indie game made by her would change things, anymore than anything you could do?
More likely than it would be without that indie game being made. We going into the Nirvana fallacy here? "Unless the solution is perfect, it's not worth trying"? That what we're doing?

Yeah an indie niche game isn't going to turn the market around, but guess what? It has more chance of doing so in the long run than raving about how the industry should change. This all ties back into my talk about "doing something about it" vis-a-vis "talking about it a lot" that I got quite some flak for.

Honestly? I think you'd have a much greater chance with a kickstarter for a million or two for such a game than telling others to do it. And don't ask why I don't do it myself, it's because I'm not eligible for kickstarter, because I don't live in the vastly superior Anglo-Saxon world, so I can't kickstart anything, and there's nobody I know who does I'd trust with that kind of money/funding.

If you have options? USE THEM. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have been born into a life where they can even come close to making an impact, and people are squandering those options on fucking pettiness. It's infuriating.

It's like our government, back in March where the PM spot was open, none of the smartass "experts" who keep criticizing its actions today had the balls to don the mantle despite having been offered the position. Now they're full of "Yeah that's bad, this is bad, I wouldn't have done that" talk. Because it's just so much easier to sit back and be a wiseass than it is to actually go in there and do what you preach.
 

Yuuki

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EternallyBored said:
I'm not sure why I keep seeing people who expect her to have made a video worth 150 thousand dollars, when her original kickstarter goal was only about 6 thousand, which she wanted so she could buy a lot of video games to do her research. Just throwing money at something doesn't automatically make it better, giving someone a hundred times what they asked for and then expecting them to instantly know how to use that money in the best possible manner is foolish. She's not going to magically become a better video maker just because she got more money, and most professional producers and documentary style makers will require a hell of a lot more than 150K to turn out a professional product.
You do realize Anita had the option of closing-down donations as soon as she had reached her goal? Alright so she would've been happy when it hit $6000, really excited when it hit $10,000, super-amazed when it hit $20,000...and at no point did she think "hey I think that's over 3x more than what I asked for, lets stop it here, thank you so much"?. Nope, she went ahead and gave entire presentations with elaborate collections of all the hate-messages she had received.

Then Anita had the nerve to steal gameplay footage from other players, I highly doubt she has plans to even spend $500 on the actual project. She's taking up to 3 months at a time to release 25 minute videos which are incredibly dull to watch.

Pretty much 99% of the Kickstarter money is hers to do whatever she wants...the nail in the coffin is that she's not even donating a single OUNCE of that money to actual Indie developers who need it.

Now the latest defense I'm hearing people say is "so she's a greedy *****, but her points are still valid!". Yes, her points (I would actually say "point", she only has one) are valid, the gaming industry has gender equality issues just like everything else in the world. Except the "issues" here are purely regarding fictional characters, but apparently the "issue" of Princess Peach, Lara Croft and Dragon's Crown is even more discussion-worthy to some people than the issue of women being discriminated/brutalized/raped in 3rd world countries.

Awesome.
 

Redd the Sock

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senordesol said:
Redd the Sock said:
Honestly, when I eat out I expect that what is on the menu is what I'm allowed, and I'm on my own for anything other than minor alterations. ie: I'm allowed to ask for no onions and extra pickles at McDonalds, I'm not allowed to ask them to make me spaghetti. Now, I'm within my rights to suggest a pasta menu, but if I'm told no, and I keep asking, I'd be a spoiled brat. Other faults would involve vilifying burgers and those that ate them, or if I do get some pasta, complaining it isn't exactly right.

I don't mean to entirely malign critics or criticism, but I started in the thread by pointing out there's a whole modding community making what they want, and kickstarter making small projects possible on one side, and a movement of people on the other that wants to make videos, blog posts, and forum comments to try and get others to build for them, and the point of the topic was to question why group B doesn't take group A's actions more often, and I've yet to hear anything that isn't in one form or another some variant of "I expect someone else to do for me."
To say 'I expect someone else to do it for me' implies some duty that one has decided to shirk (i.e. My rent's due, but I don't expect to have to pay). That is not the case here. Ms. Sarkeesian, so far as anyone is concerned, is mute unless you voluntarily make the decision to click on one of her videos (or a thread dedicated to the response of her videos). As such, she is no different from the Nostalgia Critic, Angry Joe, or Linkara wherein they make their commentary and you can choose to agree with their analysis or not.

She has no direct leverage over anyone in (or responsibility to) the games industry.

Now don't get me wrong, had she built and sold her own game or mod at some point (or even worked on a game as an employee or contractor); she'd be much more qualified to talk about the state of the industry. Her word would carry far more weight, and that's fine. But whether she has or hasn't doesn't invalidate any salient point or legitimate complaint she might have that's worth discussion.
I don't limit my views to Anita, though for the record, I have no issue with the thesis, but find the presentation very lacking. Some of those guys are the reason why. Linkara gives decent background researche history and performs a very lengthy analysis for a single issue, and shows up every week to do so. In his case, most have little to do with the modern industry and just serve to laugh at something old and it's conventions that aren't acceptable anymore and really aren't trying to change anything.

But then, that's the thing, I'm talking about the whole of the debate, right down to people talking on forums. Why have a discussion instead of trying to build yourself? Talk isn't action, and for all the talks on any issue in the world, someone eventually has to start doing something. If it's that important to get it, why do you only want to "talk" not "do". Expecting others may not be the right phrase, but wanting others isn't wrong wither. People see a problem and think their role should be to make a noise and talk, on some level because they'd prefer to avoid the work and risks of doing for themselves.

We didn't get an airplane because the Wright Brothers complained about not having one, or wanted to talk about making one. They went out and made one. If it's that important to you, take active steps, or at least show a willingness to do so, or else it probably isn't that important to you.