Shigeru Miyamoto Says His Rivals Are Boring, Samey

WeepingAngels

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Karadalis said:
Now thats a laugh... seeing how nintendo is recycling old games over and over and over, from final fantasy to their own zelda games.
Now you have my interest, what new main Final Fantasy games (not spin offs, ports or remakes) have I missed on Nintendo's systems since 1994? I will run out and buy them right away.

Heck.. the PS vita is outselling the Wii U in japan... the bloody PS VITA!
Isn't the PS4 selling poorly over there too and let's not even talk about the Japanese sales of the Xbone. How are the sales of the 3DS compared to the Vita?

You know what I think is funny. The other companies are still following Nintendo. From the motion controls last gen to the controllers with a touch screen this time around.
 

CaptainMarvelous

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Harry Mason said:
CaptainMarvelous said:
I kinda of am, yeah.
I feel like you're giving Tim Schafer a lot more leeway on this than you're giving Miyamoto; what you say is pushing the envelope usually boils down to being inventive with existing ideas. Psychonauts, which is a f*cking amazing game, draws from a lot of sources. Crash Bandicoot's style of platforming, Spyro's style of character design, just fused with his own skill for comic writing. This is nothing against the game, but it has influences. Schafer does his own thing with it but, at best, it's Crash Bandicoot as written by Tim Schafer. Which was awesome but isn't on the same level as Miyamoto.
Around the same time, Miyamoto came out with Pikmin and I will defend that original outings inventiveness to the death. It takes on RTS elements in the vaguest possible sense, structured itself around avoiding combat and was inspired by when he spent some time gardening. Comparison, Schafer came up with Full Throttle after he spent some time in a biker bar and realised how weird they sound to outsiders.
Again, I don't want to slam Tim Schafer because then this stops being a debate and starts being a "My dad can beat up your dad" contest.

But if we're talking innovations that affected the industry, Miyamoto was heavily involved in the Wii and HOW MANY consoles now have motion sensing of some form installed?
Schafer's contributions to gaming are heavy, he pretty much came up with solid comic writing integrated into storytelling in gaming.
But Miyamoto came up with gameplay, man. And he still IS, you can't just ignore all that, it's still ongoing.
Sorry dude, but I think that argument is pretty weak. All games, all things for that matter, draw from previous material. You even admit as much with the RTS elements of Pikman (Zelda is just D&D, Metroid is just Alien, etc etc.) The pieces of the past you use don't matter as much as what you build with them. Crash Bandicoot had 3D platforming through narrow pathways. It did not have a level where you turn into a giant and wreck a city full of fish men. It did not have an entire level that mimics a board game. It did not have a psychic bear.

Schafer's ambition and ideas have always outpaced his resources and his talent. Miyamoto has infinite resources and talent, and does almost nothing with them. I just don't think there is a fair comparison to be made between the man who created Amnesia Fortnight and is teaming up with the creator of Adventure Time to create an IOS game about a fat guy climbing a human pyramid, and a man who has not created a new IP (barring WiiSports) in THIRTEEN YEARS.

I live in a family of artists, and I can tell you this much... Talent is not the same as creativity. Success is not the same as creativity. Creativity is a constant, irrepressible flow of new ideas. Creativity can't sit still long enough to make 115 sequels (Did you know there are around 115 Mario Games?)

Also, motion controls are almost as old as gaming itself. Improving them and making them commercially viable takes talent. It was a smart thing to do. But calling it creative? C'mon, man.
Miyamoto's recent use of resources/IP releases is more linked to the fact he's retiring soon, I think, he's on record as saying he'd like new developers to step up so he can leave the company in good hands.
But what I'm kinda shooting for is that while most games are derivative, a lot of them are derivative of things Miyamoto flat out invented. Metroid's inspiration from Alien is pretty universally agreed, but exploring a labyrinth to get power-ups? Metroidvania as it were? I can't remember off the top of my head which came first between it and Castlevania but that style of gameplay was pretty much invented.
And this is kind of where I'm coming from, Miyamoto is creative in the sense that his main concern with pretty much any game is 'would this be fun to play?' and then if he thinks it will be, asks people. That's how Pokemon was born and yeah, since then it's been farmed and the innovation has never been revolutionary, but that first game? That's kinda the seperation, if Tim Schafer had decided to be a cartoonist he'd still be awesome and his talent for comic writing would shine like a beacon, but Miyamoto could only ever work in games.

Mario games too, while I don't think Shigsy had a hand in all of them and I think it'd be intellectually dishonest of me to say that he had, have an enormous range. 115 games including kart racing, board-games (like a certain Psychonauts level, I might add), tennis, RPGs, Haunted Mansions, Tropical paradises, Deep Space, creativity doesn't always have to break the mould, working with what you've got is one of the cornerstones of game design (as you said, all creativity can be said to be somewhat derivative).

You got a fair point about the motion controls, but if there's one thing no-one's ever accused Nintendo of it's good business sense so even I'm baffled how Wii Sports did so well. I wanna say Miyamoto just made an awesome game but that's probably a little disingenuous.
 

xaszatm

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Sep 4, 2010
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Harry Mason said:
CaptainMarvelous said:
Harry Mason said:
CaptainMarvelous said:
Harry Mason said:
Yo Miyamoto. Tim Schafer has more unique creative output in single summer than you have had in your entire career. If he had the enormous resources you have, I guaran-freakin-tee you he wouldn't have Raz playing tennis against Sonic the Hedgehog.

So nyeh.
Are you honestly saying Tim Schafer is more creative than Miyamoto? You think the guy who made Brutal Legend is more innovative than the guy who invented the jump button?
Jesus, that's not even a case of opinion, that's just flat-out unreasonable. I got nothing against Tim Schafer but seriously, dude, look into what he did for the industry before saying such things, you know not of what you speak.
I am, and I do.

Saying Miyamoto is the most creative videogame developer in the industry is like saying the caveman who carved the first wheel is the best automotive manufacturer. Schafer has only been making games since the 1980's, but he is constantly moving forward and trying something new with everything he does. Even if it turns out poorly (Read: Combat in Full Throttle). He bangs out a dozen entirely new game mechanics every year. Some of them are amazing, some of them aren't, but he is still creating.

Schafer has been pushing the envelope, hard, with his games, his writing, and the way he runs his businesses, for 25 years. Miyamoto made a handful of successful IPs and rode the success of a videogame industry giant the rest of the way.

Are you seriously going to try to convince me the man who made "Wii Sports Resort" has a single ounce of relevance left? He is wealthy and well known. That's it at this point.
I kinda of am, yeah.
I feel like you're giving Tim Schafer a lot more leeway on this than you're giving Miyamoto; what you say is pushing the envelope usually boils down to being inventive with existing ideas. Psychonauts, which is a f*cking amazing game, draws from a lot of sources. Crash Bandicoot's style of platforming, Spyro's style of character design, just fused with his own skill for comic writing. This is nothing against the game, but it has influences. Schafer does his own thing with it but, at best, it's Crash Bandicoot as written by Tim Schafer. Which was awesome but isn't on the same level as Miyamoto.
Around the same time, Miyamoto came out with Pikmin and I will defend that original outings inventiveness to the death. It takes on RTS elements in the vaguest possible sense, structured itself around avoiding combat and was inspired by when he spent some time gardening. Comparison, Schafer came up with Full Throttle after he spent some time in a biker bar and realised how weird they sound to outsiders.
Again, I don't want to slam Tim Schafer because then this stops being a debate and starts being a "My dad can beat up your dad" contest.

But if we're talking innovations that affected the industry, Miyamoto was heavily involved in the Wii and HOW MANY consoles now have motion sensing of some form installed?
Schafer's contributions to gaming are heavy, he pretty much came up with solid comic writing integrated into storytelling in gaming.
But Miyamoto came up with gameplay, man. And he still IS, you can't just ignore all that, it's still ongoing.
Sorry dude, but I think that argument is pretty weak. All games, all things for that matter, draw from previous material. You even admit as much with the RTS elements of Pikman (Zelda is just D&D, Metroid is just Alien, etc etc.) The pieces of the past you use don't matter as much as what you build with them. Crash Bandicoot had 3D platforming through narrow pathways. It did not have a level where you turn into a giant and wreck a city full of fish men. It did not have an entire level that mimics a board game. It did not have a psychic bear.

Schafer's ambition and ideas have always outpaced his resources and his talent. Miyamoto has infinite resources and talent, and does almost nothing with them. I just don't think there is a fair comparison to be made between the man who created Amnesia Fortnight and is teaming up with the creator of Adventure Time to create an IOS game about a fat guy climbing a human pyramid, and a man who has not created a new IP (barring WiiSports) in THIRTEEN YEARS.

I live in a family of artists, and I can tell you this much... Talent is not the same as creativity. Success is not the same as creativity. Creativity is a constant, irrepressible flow of new ideas. Creativity can't sit still long enough to make 115 sequels (Did you know there are around 115 Mario Games?)

Also, motion controls are almost as old as gaming itself. Improving them and making them commercially viable takes talent. It was a smart thing to do. But calling it creative? C'mon, man.
Actually, he's behind the concept of Nintendogs, Wii Fit, Wii Music, and Steel Diver as well. Hell, if you want to be technical, he had a helping hand in Chibi-Robo (which is massively popular in Japan) and Geist, but the main reason why he hasn't been making more new IPs is because he stopped being behind the director's chair for a long time. He's been acting as a supervisor or secondary producer for almost all of the games under his name with many others taking the center stage.

Also, you do know that not every Mario game has been developed by Miyamoto, right? Like Kenji Kondo is now the main person behind the 2-D and 3-D Mario games and entire separate teams are behind the various spin-off titles that slap Mario's name on it. Saying Miyamoto is responsible for creating all those games is like saying Schaffer is behind Escape from Monkey Island and that's all Schaffer does. Or saying that Schaffer only does Adventure Games.

Finally, he is working on new IPs. Project Giant Robot and Project Guard are all new IPs he's doing. Both are creative and interesting. I'm not saying that they are going to be a success, but since you're using Schaffer as an example, you know full well that bad financial selling does not mean the game is bad.
 

Harry Mason

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xaszatm said:
Harry Mason said:
CaptainMarvelous said:
Harry Mason said:
CaptainMarvelous said:
Harry Mason said:
Yo Miyamoto. Tim Schafer has more unique creative output in single summer than you have had in your entire career. If he had the enormous resources you have, I guaran-freakin-tee you he wouldn't have Raz playing tennis against Sonic the Hedgehog.

So nyeh.
Are you honestly saying Tim Schafer is more creative than Miyamoto? You think the guy who made Brutal Legend is more innovative than the guy who invented the jump button?
Jesus, that's not even a case of opinion, that's just flat-out unreasonable. I got nothing against Tim Schafer but seriously, dude, look into what he did for the industry before saying such things, you know not of what you speak.
I am, and I do.

Saying Miyamoto is the most creative videogame developer in the industry is like saying the caveman who carved the first wheel is the best automotive manufacturer. Schafer has only been making games since the 1980's, but he is constantly moving forward and trying something new with everything he does. Even if it turns out poorly (Read: Combat in Full Throttle). He bangs out a dozen entirely new game mechanics every year. Some of them are amazing, some of them aren't, but he is still creating.

Schafer has been pushing the envelope, hard, with his games, his writing, and the way he runs his businesses, for 25 years. Miyamoto made a handful of successful IPs and rode the success of a videogame industry giant the rest of the way.

Are you seriously going to try to convince me the man who made "Wii Sports Resort" has a single ounce of relevance left? He is wealthy and well known. That's it at this point.
I kinda of am, yeah.
I feel like you're giving Tim Schafer a lot more leeway on this than you're giving Miyamoto; what you say is pushing the envelope usually boils down to being inventive with existing ideas. Psychonauts, which is a f*cking amazing game, draws from a lot of sources. Crash Bandicoot's style of platforming, Spyro's style of character design, just fused with his own skill for comic writing. This is nothing against the game, but it has influences. Schafer does his own thing with it but, at best, it's Crash Bandicoot as written by Tim Schafer. Which was awesome but isn't on the same level as Miyamoto.
Around the same time, Miyamoto came out with Pikmin and I will defend that original outings inventiveness to the death. It takes on RTS elements in the vaguest possible sense, structured itself around avoiding combat and was inspired by when he spent some time gardening. Comparison, Schafer came up with Full Throttle after he spent some time in a biker bar and realised how weird they sound to outsiders.
Again, I don't want to slam Tim Schafer because then this stops being a debate and starts being a "My dad can beat up your dad" contest.

But if we're talking innovations that affected the industry, Miyamoto was heavily involved in the Wii and HOW MANY consoles now have motion sensing of some form installed?
Schafer's contributions to gaming are heavy, he pretty much came up with solid comic writing integrated into storytelling in gaming.
But Miyamoto came up with gameplay, man. And he still IS, you can't just ignore all that, it's still ongoing.
Sorry dude, but I think that argument is pretty weak. All games, all things for that matter, draw from previous material. You even admit as much with the RTS elements of Pikman (Zelda is just D&D, Metroid is just Alien, etc etc.) The pieces of the past you use don't matter as much as what you build with them. Crash Bandicoot had 3D platforming through narrow pathways. It did not have a level where you turn into a giant and wreck a city full of fish men. It did not have an entire level that mimics a board game. It did not have a psychic bear.

Schafer's ambition and ideas have always outpaced his resources and his talent. Miyamoto has infinite resources and talent, and does almost nothing with them. I just don't think there is a fair comparison to be made between the man who created Amnesia Fortnight and is teaming up with the creator of Adventure Time to create an IOS game about a fat guy climbing a human pyramid, and a man who has not created a new IP (barring WiiSports) in THIRTEEN YEARS.

I live in a family of artists, and I can tell you this much... Talent is not the same as creativity. Success is not the same as creativity. Creativity is a constant, irrepressible flow of new ideas. Creativity can't sit still long enough to make 115 sequels (Did you know there are around 115 Mario Games?)

Also, motion controls are almost as old as gaming itself. Improving them and making them commercially viable takes talent. It was a smart thing to do. But calling it creative? C'mon, man.
Actually, he's behind the concept of Nintendogs, Wii Fit, Wii Music, and Steel Diver as well. Hell, if you want to be technical, he had a helping hand in Chibi-Robo (which is massively popular in Japan) and Geist, but the main reason why he hasn't been making more new IPs is because he stopped being behind the director's chair for a long time. He's been acting as a supervisor or secondary producer for almost all of the games under his name with many others taking the center stage.

Also, you do know that not every Mario game has been developed by Miyamoto, right? Like Kenji Kondo is now the main person behind the 2-D and 3-D Mario games and entire separate teams are behind the various spin-off titles that slap Mario's name on it. Saying Miyamoto is responsible for creating all those games is like saying Schaffer is behind Escape from Monkey Island and that's all Schaffer does. Or saying that Schaffer only does Adventure Games.

Finally, he is working on new IPs. Project Giant Robot and Project Guard are all new IPs he's doing. Both are creative and interesting. I'm not saying that they are going to be a success, but since you're using Schaffer as an example, you know full well that bad financial selling does not mean the game is bad.
Nitendogs? Nintendogs? Nintendogs. I didn't know that, but that is the most damning critique of the trajectory of his career I've heard yet. WiiFit? Are you kidding? Have you switched to my side and are now actively rooting against this guy? Going from creating Mario to making WiiFit is like writing the defining fiction of a generation and deciding to keep your hot streak going by designing vacuum cleaners. The man is a joke.

And him not personally having a hand in each and every Mario game is irrelevant. It's his supposedly treasured IP and he has never lifted a finger to see that there might be some degree of quality control. Dude cannot keep up. It's gotten so bad he's shaking his fist out the window now, grumbling about how everyone is doing it wrong.
 

Harry Mason

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CaptainMarvelous said:
Metroid's inspiration from Alien is pretty universally agreed, but exploring a labyrinth to get power-ups? Metroidvania as it were? I can't remember off the top of my head which came first between it and Castlevania but that style of gameplay was pretty much invented.
Uh, D&D perhaps? I'm pretty sure that's just D&D.

And I would never disagree that his games are fun. Mariokart is the fucking best. I play every Zelda game that comes out. But he wasn't accusing people of making un-fun games, he was accusing people of being derivative. And that's no longer a valid critique of him to make.
 

xaszatm

That Voice in Your Head
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Harry Mason said:
Nitendogs? Nintendogs? Nintendogs. I didn't know that, but that is the most damning critique of the trajectory of his career I've heard yet. WiiFit? Are you kidding? Have you switched to my side and are now actively rooting against this guy? Going from creating Mario to making WiiFit is like writing the defining fiction of a generation and deciding to keep your hot streak going by designing vacuum cleaners. The man is a joke.

And him not personally having a hand in each and every Mario game is irrelevant. It's his supposedly treasured IP and he has never lifted a finger to see that there might be some degree of quality control. Dude cannot keep up. It's gotten so bad he's shaking his fist out the window now, grumbling about how everyone is doing it wrong.
...So, I just want to be clear here. You are saying Miyamoto is a joke of a director/publisher/producer because, in the last 13 years, the only new IP he created are terrible in your opinion. Well, do you think Tim Schaffer is a joke? No? Why not? After Brutal Legend, he's done nothing but Kinnect tie-ins until he finally did Broken Age. His current project is a godamn remake of Grim Fandago! And yet you praise him like he's the second son! My god, I LOVE Tim Schaffer but you're putting him on way to high of a pedestal if you think that he's this creative master who has been in this slump since the ambitious Brutal Legend until Broken Age.

Also Miyamoto is a joke because he doesn't offer "quality control" to Mario games. Please inform me, which Mario game is terrible again? Is it Mario Kart? Any of the Mario Sports Titles? Just because YOU don't like his games doesn't mean he is creatively bankrupt! Tim Schaffer didn't offer quality control to the Monkey Island Titles, the Star Wars titles (HEY, his name is on one of them, using the way you are placing Miyamoto to blame for every Nintendo game, Tim Schaffer MUST be responsible for every bad Star Wars game), any Kinnect game not made by him, and every adventure game EVER made. Tim Schaffer is CLEARLY at fault here. In case you haven't guessed yet. I'm dripping with sarcasm here.
 

xaszatm

That Voice in Your Head
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Harry Mason said:
CaptainMarvelous said:
Metroid's inspiration from Alien is pretty universally agreed, but exploring a labyrinth to get power-ups? Metroidvania as it were? I can't remember off the top of my head which came first between it and Castlevania but that style of gameplay was pretty much invented.
Uh, D&D perhaps? I'm pretty sure that's just D&D.

And I would never disagree that his games are fun. Mariokart is the fucking best. I play every Zelda game that comes out. But he wasn't accusing people of making un-fun games, he was accusing people of being derivative. And that's no longer a valid critique of him to make.
Exactly where in the 1st Edition of D&D do you get items that give you power ups? You get spells and crap when you level up, but I don't recall getting items that could do shit. You got equipment or gold. Try again.
 

Rozalia1

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Harry Mason said:
The man is a joke.
That is IGC at its worst levels. Yeah a main eventer with a long line of title wins, and 5 star matches is a joke... makes sense.
The man is one of the all time greats, now I know you might like some jobber that never got anywhere and blame the top dogs for "keeping the limelight away" from said Jobber (where all this seems to come from)... but that isn't true. If those jobbers were any good they would have grabbed those brass rings and drawn money, they didn't so the guys on top stayed on top.

That isn't to say you can't enjoy those jobbers though. I mean there are loads of jobbers I like, they aren't famous but are still well respected by me.
 

xaszatm

That Voice in Your Head
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Rozalia1 said:
Harry Mason said:
The man is a joke.
That is IGC at its worst levels. Yeah a main eventer with a long line of title wins, and 5 star matches is a joke... makes sense.
The man is one of the all time greats, now I know you might like some jobber that never got anywhere and blame the top dogs for "keeping the limelight away" from said Jobber (where all this seems to come from)... but that isn't true. If those jobbers were any good they would have grabbed those brass rings and drawn money, they didn't so the guys on top stayed on top.

That isn't to say you can't enjoy those jobbers though. I mean there are loads of jobbers I like, they aren't famous but are still well respected by me.
...quick question but what's IGC?
 

Rozalia1

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xaszatm said:
...quick question but what's IGC?
Internet Gaming Community, a "play" I suppose on the Internet Wrestling Community. Characterised by overly high levels of criticism and "armchair booking". Depending on how its used in a sentence it can refer to everyone who takes part in discussions on the internet, or the "standouts" who are overly critical/negative, armchair a lot, and hate on everything not their favorites/at the top of the card.

Calling Miyamoto a "joke" just reminded me of those IWC who call John Cena a "joke" so it seemed apt.
 

Jingle Fett

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Harry Mason said:
Nitendogs? Nintendogs? Nintendogs. I didn't know that, but that is the most damning critique of the trajectory of his career I've heard yet. WiiFit? Are you kidding? Have you switched to my side and are now actively rooting against this guy? Going from creating Mario to making WiiFit is like writing the defining fiction of a generation and deciding to keep your hot streak going by designing vacuum cleaners. The man is a joke.

And him not personally having a hand in each and every Mario game is irrelevant. It's his supposedly treasured IP and he has never lifted a finger to see that there might be some degree of quality control. Dude cannot keep up. It's gotten so bad he's shaking his fist out the window now, grumbling about how everyone is doing it wrong.
Sorry buddy, it doesn't work that way. You don't get to complain he hasn't made any new IPs and then act as though the ones he did make don't count and are a joke just because you weren't the target audience. Nintendogs and Wii Fit might not appeal to you, but they appealed to plenty of other people and that's perfectly valid.
Dismiss Nintendogs all you want but that "joke" sold 6 million copies by 2006 and won 10 awards. For reference, that's double the original (good) Crysis' 3 million copies. That's just past Gears of War's 5.88 million. Wii Fit has sold over 18.22 million copies. That's more than Call of Duty 4's 15.3 million. Read that again--Wii Fit sold more copies than the original Modern Warfare. But of course, none of that counts because reasons.

Now to pre-emptively address one of the inevitable arguments, obviously it's possible for something to be bad and still make money--Transformers being a good example. But this isn't a discussion about good/bad, it was about new IPs and originality.

Interestingly enough, both those games sort of prove his point about the sameyness. A game about raising dogs and a game about doing exercise that outsold...a scifi shooter where you play as a soldier, a scifi shooter where you play as another soldier, and a modern shooter where you play as...a soldier.
 

Harry Mason

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Rozalia1 said:
Harry Mason said:
The man is a joke.
That is IGC at its worst levels. Yeah a main eventer with a long line of title wins, and 5 star matches is a joke... makes sense.
The man is one of the all time greats, now I know you might like some jobber that never got anywhere and blame the top dogs for "keeping the limelight away" from said Jobber (where all this seems to come from)... but that isn't true. If those jobbers were any good they would have grabbed those brass rings and drawn money, they didn't so the guys on top stayed on top.

That isn't to say you can't enjoy those jobbers though. I mean there are loads of jobbers I like, they aren't famous but are still well respected by me.
Dude, no disrespect, but I didn't understand half of that. Does that mean I'm old? Am I old now?

xaszatm said:
Harry Mason said:
Uh, D&D perhaps? I'm pretty sure that's just D&D.

And I would never disagree that his games are fun. Mariokart is the fucking best. I play every Zelda game that comes out. But he wasn't accusing people of making un-fun games, he was accusing people of being derivative. And that's no longer a valid critique of him to make.
Exactly where in the 1st Edition of D&D do you get items that give you power ups? You get spells and crap when you level up, but I don't recall getting items that could do shit. You got equipment or gold. Try again.
Power Grip = Spider Climb
Thermal Positioner = Truesight
Seeker Missiles = Magic Missiles
Gravity Boost = Jump Spell

All upgrades you can earn by traveling through a dungeon and leveling up or accruing magic items enchanted with them. AD&D introduced powerful magic items that could enhance a dungeon run. In 1981. A half a decade before the first Metroid.

Metriod is fun, but original? Nope.

xaszatm said:
...So, I just want to be clear here. You are saying Miyamoto is a joke of a director/publisher/producer because, in the last 13 years, the only new IP he created are terrible in your opinion. Well, do you think Tim Schaffer is a joke? No? Why not? After Brutal Legend, he's done nothing but Kinnect tie-ins until he finally did Broken Age. His current project is a godamn remake of Grim Fandago! And yet you praise him like he's the second son! My god, I LOVE Tim Schaffer but you're putting him on way to high of a pedestal if you think that he's this creative master who has been in this slump since the ambitious Brutal Legend until Broken Age.
Here's a list of games that Tim Schafer's studio, and to some degree in each, Tim Schafer himself, has been involved in since Brutal Legend (which came out in 2009, by the way, which is hardly comparable to Miyamoto's 13 year new IP drought):

Stacking
Iron Brigade
Costume Quest
Sesame Street: Once Upon a Monster
Double Fine Happy Action Theater
Middle Manager of Justice
Kinect Party
The Cave
Dropchord
Autonomous
Broken Age
Hack 'n' Slash
Massive Chalice
Costume Quest 2
Spacebase DF-9

That's 3 entirely new IPs every year since Brutal Legend came out, and that's just the stuff I can remember off the top of my head. Double Fine also has one twentieth of the staff and one quintillinth of the financial resources that Miyamoto has at his disposal, and they manage to star in multiple documentaries and have webcomics running at the same time.

xaszatm said:
Also Miyamoto is a joke because he doesn't offer "quality control" to Mario games. Please inform me, which Mario game is terrible again? Is it Mario Kart? Any of the Mario Sports Titles? Just because YOU don't like his games doesn't mean he is creatively bankrupt! Tim Schaffer didn't offer quality control to the Monkey Island Titles, the Star Wars titles (HEY, his name is on one of them, using the way you are placing Miyamoto to blame for every Nintendo game, Tim Schaffer MUST be responsible for every bad Star Wars game), any Kinnect game not made by him, and every adventure game EVER made. Tim Schaffer is CLEARLY at fault here. In case you haven't guessed yet. I'm dripping with sarcasm here.
Well, Miyamoto actually does have a fair bit of pull at Nintendo, where as the Lucas Arts IPs were guarded by a collection of raving madmen. When his IPs started being controlled by other people, Schafer jumped ship and formed his own company. That's because he cares about his creations, not adding another coat of gold to his Mario shaped mansion. So, your sarcastic comparison is pretty weak.

Also, I grabbed Schafer as a random example (granted, one I love). Pretty much any modern indie dev, and some of the AAA ones, makes Miyamoto, and by extension Nintendo, look like fucking jokes. I'm not placing Schafer on a pedestal, I'm just placing Miyamoto where he belongs: A once creative mind turned into a faceless moneymaking drone, devoid of any ability to take risks or continue to create, only to help an out-of-touch company come up with new ways to make money off of the elderly.
 

xaszatm

That Voice in Your Head
Sep 4, 2010
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Harry Mason said:
xaszatm said:
Harry Mason said:
Uh, D&D perhaps? I'm pretty sure that's just D&D.

And I would never disagree that his games are fun. Mariokart is the fucking best. I play every Zelda game that comes out. But he wasn't accusing people of making un-fun games, he was accusing people of being derivative. And that's no longer a valid critique of him to make.
Exactly where in the 1st Edition of D&D do you get items that give you power ups? You get spells and crap when you level up, but I don't recall getting items that could do shit. You got equipment or gold. Try again.
Power Grip = Spider Climb
Thermal Positioner = Truesight
Seeker Missiles = Magic Missiles
Gravity Boost = Jump Spell

All upgrades you can earn by traveling through a dungeon and leveling up or accruing magic items enchanted with them. AD&D introduced powerful magic items that could enhance a dungeon run. In 1981. A half a decade before the first Metroid.

Metriod is fun, but original? Nope.
Those aren't equipment. Those are level up bonuses. If we want to use such a grand simplifying of ideas in order to make these games seem less original, then NO game has ever been original. NONE. And don't try and be cute and bring up Tim Schaffer again because he's definitely not original of we are using your definition.

xaszatm said:
...So, I just want to be clear here. You are saying Miyamoto is a joke of a director/publisher/producer because, in the last 13 years, the only new IP he created are terrible in your opinion. Well, do you think Tim Schaffer is a joke? No? Why not? After Brutal Legend, he's done nothing but Kinnect tie-ins until he finally did Broken Age. His current project is a godamn remake of Grim Fandago! And yet you praise him like he's the second son! My god, I LOVE Tim Schaffer but you're putting him on way to high of a pedestal if you think that he's this creative master who has been in this slump since the ambitious Brutal Legend until Broken Age.
Here's a list of games that Tim Schafer's studio, and to some degree in each, Tim Schafer himself, has been involved in since Brutal Legend (which came out in 2009, by the way, which is hardly comparable to Miyamoto's 13 year new IP drought):

Stacking
Iron Brigade
Costume Quest
Sesame Street: Once Upon a Monster
Double Fine Happy Action Theater
Middle Manager of Justice
Kinect Party
The Cave
Dropchord
Autonomous
Broken Age
Hack 'n' Slash
Massive Chalice
Costume Quest 2
Spacebase DF-9

That's 3 entirely new IPs every year since Brutal Legend came out, and that's just the stuff I can remember off the top of my head. Double Fine also has one twentieth of the staff and one quintillinth of the financial resources that Miyamoto has at his disposal, and they manage to star in multiple documentaries and have webcomics running at the same time.
...and these are better than Nintendogs and Wii Fit how? No, I want to know! You said that Miyamoto was a joke because he made Nintendogs and Wii Fit. And...Kinect Party and Sesame Street: Once Upon a Monster is better? At least Nintendogs and Wii Fit are actually workable games and not a buggy mess! And even their new IP is, going by your pathetic definition of a good game, are automatically NOT good games. Dropchord is a music based game, it must automatically be just as stupid as Nitnendogs, right? No? Oh, so you are showing favoritism because of a company.

And how is Miyamoto's output any indication of Nintendo's output? Are we going to ignore the new IP's that Nintendo has just because Miyamoto isn't behind the damn chair? Just how important do you think Miyamoto is anyways? Actually, you answer that below, so let's see just how ignorant you truly are in the workings of a company.

xaszatm said:
Also Miyamoto is a joke because he doesn't offer "quality control" to Mario games. Please inform me, which Mario game is terrible again? Is it Mario Kart? Any of the Mario Sports Titles? Just because YOU don't like his games doesn't mean he is creatively bankrupt! Tim Schaffer didn't offer quality control to the Monkey Island Titles, the Star Wars titles (HEY, his name is on one of them, using the way you are placing Miyamoto to blame for every Nintendo game, Tim Schaffer MUST be responsible for every bad Star Wars game), any Kinnect game not made by him, and every adventure game EVER made. Tim Schaffer is CLEARLY at fault here. In case you haven't guessed yet. I'm dripping with sarcasm here.
Well, Miyamoto actually does have a fair bit of pull at Nintendo, where as the Lucas Arts IPs were guarded by a collection of raving madmen. When his IPs started being controlled by other people, Schafer jumped ship and formed his own company. That's because he cares about his creations, not adding another coat of gold to his Mario shaped mansion. So, your sarcastic comparison is pretty weak.

Also, I grabbed Schafer as a random example (granted, one I love). Pretty much any modern indie dev, and some of the AAA ones, makes Miyamoto, and by extension Nintendo, look like fucking jokes. I'm not placing Schafer on a pedestal, I'm just placing Miyamoto where he belongs: A once creative mind turned into a faceless moneymaking drone, devoid of any ability to take risks or continue to create, only to help an out-of-touch company come up with new ways to make money off of the elderly.
I think you are confusing Nintendo and Miyamoto. Now, I'm sure you think you know all about Nintendo politics with you saying Miyamoto controls Nintendo, But...I can't even continue with a straight face, YOU ARE A JOKE IF YOU THINK THIS! Miyamoto is not the head of Nintendo, Iwata is. Miyamoto takes on a supervisor role and has some push, but Iwata, and especially the tyrant Gunpei Yokoi until his death had WAY more pull than Miyamoto ever had. Iwata is, in fact, more influential than Miyamoto as Iwata still helps with coding and technical details.

In fact let's dissect each piece of insult you used in great detail, shall we?

A once creative mind turned faceless moneymaking drone: Because Nintendogs is more creatively bankrupt than Kinnect Party, amirite? Let's forget that Nintendogs is an EXCELLENT game. Let's just pretend that it's a bad game so you can strut around on your high horse saying how creatively bankrupt a guy is. Because you clearly know what is superior, right?

Devoid of any ability to take risks or continue to create: So...Nintendogs isn't taking a risk? Wii Fit isn't taking a risk? Project Guard and Project Giant Robot isn't taking a risk? NONE of those games play like traditional games. Those, BY DEFAULT, have inherent risk to them. What the living hell is risky to you? A adventure-style visual novel like Broken Age? Oh, for sure THAT'S truly stretching the limits of Tim Schaffer's creative ability. Oh, what's that? He's created creative project as well? Well, no shit, but we're using your "you make one game I see as creatively bankrupt (never mind if it actually is or not), and you are forever a drone" logic here so no, Tim Schaffer...and any developer for that matter, is a mindless hack drone that only produces the safest content possible.

Out-of-Touch company come up with new ways to make money of the elderly: Ah, and here we get to the root of the problem. First off, the Wii was Iwata's idea, not Miyamoto's, but let's pretend that's not true so you can continue your hate campaign against the guy. Secondly, THE WII WAS SUCCESSFUL WITHOUT THE SUPPORT OF THE HARDCORE CROWD. GET. OVER. YOUR. SELF. I get it. You're mad. You thought Nintendo shouldn't have won. The tried to be creative AND took a risk vying for an audience that wan't yourself. You HATED it, and like everyone else, want Nintendo to suffer. Since, they still haven't suffered yet (there's WAY too much money in the bank for Nintendo to be too worried about the Wii U's failure), you are being petty and trying to rewrite history to suite your narrow-minded views on how a video game company works.

So let's see you try and weasel your way out of this.
 

Harry Mason

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xaszatm said:
Out-of-Touch company come up with new ways to make money of the elderly: Ah, and here we get to the root of the problem. First off, the Wii was Iwata's idea, not Miyamoto's, but let's pretend that's not true so you can continue your hate campaign against the guy.
Uh, dude, I don't hate Miyamoto. My hatred is reserved for Libertarians and people who are rude to waiters. I don't ANYTHING Miyamoto. I just thought his comment about the games industry being uncreative was hypocritical, because he is not a very creative member of the games industry.

xaszatm said:
Secondly, THE WII WAS SUCCESSFUL WITHOUT THE SUPPORT OF THE HARDCORE CROWD. GET. OVER. YOUR. SELF. I get it. You're mad. You thought Nintendo shouldn't have won. The tried to be creative AND took a risk vying for an audience that wan't yourself. You HATED it, and like everyone else, want Nintendo to suffer.
I love the Nintendo Wii. I still boot it up to play Twilight Princess or No More Heros sometimes. I also own a GameCube, which I love, and a SNES, which I also love. I like Super Smash Bros. I like Mario Party. And I'll say this in all caps, because that is a thing we are apparently doing now, YOU ARE PROJECTING. All I have been saying is that Miyamoto and Nintendo have no right to be throwing stones in the creativity department.

xaszatm said:
Since, they still haven't suffered yet (there's WAY too much money in the bank for Nintendo to be too worried about the Wii U's failure), you are being petty and trying to rewrite history to suite your narrow-minded views on how a video game company works.

So let's see you try and weasel your way out of this.
Man, I have heard people talk about the frothing, white hot rage of Nintendo fans, but I didn't believe it, because up until now every Nintendo fan I've known has been a really level-headed, self-aware person. I said that Miyamoto isn't creative, and you get all the way to me wanting Nintendo to suffer for the failure of the Wii U? Am I even a necessary party in this argument?

How many times do you have to furiously accuse me of being angry before you realize the irony of what you're doing? I'm not angry, dude. I have a headache, I've had a long day at work, I miss my parents, I'm nervous about the reception of Obama's new Immigration executive order, and I'm looking forward to that look my girlfriend gives me when I walk into our house... I have a LOT of emotions, but angry at a mostly irrelevant videogame developer and some random person screaming at me about them? Not one of them.

On a side note, I enjoyed the hate mail you sent me over PM. I am, however, sad that you haven't responded to me yet.
 

NerAnima

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And so, this Nintendo thread has devolved into what it almost always devolves into; arguing, yelling, and pointless pissing contests. I already know that it would be too much to ask for politely talking out our differences in a thread such as this, but a girl's/boy's/penguin's gonna hope.

And Miyamoto's right, people are saying that "Call of Duty at least changes the story". No, they don't, not in anyway; the story, since World at War, has been 'America is under attack, now save it.' But this thread is about Nintendo, and how they're sinking/how they're the greatest damn company.

You start to get tired of it, after a while.

And Mr. Mason,

Harry Mason said:
xaszatm said:
snip

xaszatm said:
snip snip

xaszatm said:
snippity snip
Man, I have heard people talk about the frothing, white hot rage of Nintendo fans, but I didn't believe it, because up until now every Nintendo fan I've known has been a really level-headed, self-aware person. I said that Miyamoto isn't creative, and you get all the way to me wanting Nintendo to suffer for the failure of the Wii U? Am I even a necessary party in this argument?

snipped off
I think that he's not a frothing Nintendo fanboy, simply someone who is tired, just as you were at the time of posting, and you were both being about as yielding as a brick wall. I might be playing Devil's Advocate, but w/e, just accept that he believes that Miyamoto is just as/more creative than Schafer.

Just one Nintendo thread without all the hatred we usually reserve for the SS; is that too much to ask?
 

Azure23

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loa said:
Razhem said:
To those people crying about console exclusives. You do know that's the only thing that differentiates the consoles for real at the end of the day and doesn't make the industry become an outright monopoly, right? I mean, the moment we go that route, consoles can die in a bonfier and we can all just use gaming rigs, because if the console market still exists, and everybody gets the same games, well, one will obviously be top dog because at the end of the day, one will have the better online service/specs, and the rest doesn't matter, kind of kills the industry with a single stroke.

Since I only have a 3DS and my PC to my name, a world where everything is in PC, period, would be wonderful for me and maybe it's the next natural step, but if you people like the whole "game console thing" that single choice pretty much warrants the end of the concept of a console since why the hell would any company bother to develop one if there is nothing to differentiate it outside of raw power and online service?
Yeah.
Doesn't look too good for consoles if the justification for their existence is some anti-consumer tactic.
They only exist as a sense of tradition and with the ps4 and that xbox thing, we might just finally see some bubbles pop.
Look I hate how capitalism gone awry can prey on the consumer as much as the next guy, hell, probably more. But the videogame industry is one place where healthy competition is very much needed. Homogenization of the industry (admittedly along with several other contributing factors) nearly killed it in the 80's, go look at the history, there have been incredibly interesting papers and even documentaries produced about the video game market crash of 83'.

Besides talented developers have been preying on corporate greed to get amazing games made that otherwise wouldn't get made at all. Bloodborne (and Demons' Souls) are good examples of this. Fromsoft was already a modestly respected third party developer for Sony thanks to their Armored Core series, when they brought up the ambitious new Souls IP, Sony agreed to fund it and help with development (with the talented Sony Japan studio). It turned out to be a hit, Fromsoft was able to produce a sequal and find a new publisher that helped it go multiplatform. Then they later approached Sony for more help, and with a slew of recent hit games, were granted tons of funding and once more the talents of the Sony Japan studio. Now we have Bloodborne coming in a few months. Admittedly this is a slightly different situation considering that by their own admission From isn't great at multiplatform development, but we shouldn't demonize that. They should develop on whatever platform they want to.

Sorry this got a bit rambly. My point is that third party developers shouldn't only have one choice when creating games, a monopoly isn't good for anyone, not for the content creators, not for the consumers. And I understand that every game needing to be multiplatform wouldn't be a monopoly per se, but I honestly believe that the homogenization of hardware this could bring about would result in one.

Edit: oh look I found an interesting post worth responding to and neatly sidestepped a white hot cauldron of fanboy debate all at the same time, sweet.
 

KazeAizen

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Halla Burrica said:
I still find it hard to understand the criticism Nintendo gets for "remaking the same games over and over". What, their franchises has reoccuring characters, names, themes and gameplay elements? Welcome to every game franchise ever that's lasted more than 2 years. Give me one main series Metal Gear Solid game that isn't about some guy called Snake, has themes about war and politics and which gameplay mainly revolves aroud sneaking and infiltating with options for different approaches. Give me one Hitman game that doesn't have you play as Agent 47 and has gameplay that mainly involves you assassinating people and gives you different ways of doing so. Give me one Megaman game where you don't play as a human-like robot stopping an evil madman from taking over the world defeating his robot minions along the way and gaining new powers when you defeat them. Or a God of War game where you don't play as Kratos, brutally tearing through any obstacle standing in your way with hack and slash gameplay. Or just one motherfucking Half-Life game that doesn't have you play as Gordon Freeman (blue shift and opposing force were expansion packs), do jumping and physics puzzles, gives you an increasingly wide arsenal of weapons and has enviromental storytelling.


The thing about franchises is that they can have these recurring things, because they are franchises, without using these kinds of elements again and again they wouldn't be able to call themselves that. So really, what is Nintendo's big sin here? I honestly want to know, because it's nearly impossible to get anything out of these criticisms that have NOTHING that back them up. I'm not even really sure if they have anything backing them up, or if they're just regurgitating what Yathzee said because "that's what the cool kids do".
I think its because they've been making games for so long. Longer than almost anyone else and that they keep on coming out with a new game in their biggest franchises every other year or so. The funny part is when very very very few of them actually suck.
 

Harry Mason

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NerAnima said:
Harry Mason said:
ONE MILLION SNIPS!
I think that he's not a frothing Nintendo fanboy, simply someone who is tired, just as you were at the time of posting, and you were both being about as yielding as a brick wall. I might be playing Devil's Advocate, but w/e, just accept that he believes that Miyamoto is just as/more creative than Schafer.

Just one Nintendo thread without all the hatred we usually reserve for the SS; is that too much to ask?
Well, then I must be young and naive after all! Or maybe this is just my first time commenting on a Nintendo thread. I am still not angry, and I don't have an issue with Nintendo. I wouldn't buy their products if I had an issue with them. I was just criticizing what I thought was a hypocritical comment, and it seems I tapped into a mountain of boiling nerd. And then Mount Nerd erupted.

Maybe there are an army of people vying to destroy Nintendo with their hurtful internet words, and Nintendo fans are just reacting appropriately to years of abuse. But I'll tell you this much, when I post something critical about, say, Sony, the reaction is much more "Mmmkay pumpkin *pat pat*" and much less "WHY ARE YOU TEARING MY LIFE APART?!"

I mean, that person I was arguing with sent me a personal message to tell me I had personally made her relapse into some sort of illness. Because I said I didn't think Miyamoto was creative. I just... What...
 

Evonisia

Your sinner, in secret
Jun 24, 2013
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CaitSeith said:
chozo_hybrid said:
CaitSeith said:
Did you try ZombiU?
He's talking about Nintendo, and that's not a Nintendo game. It's Ubisoft, so I'm not sure it relates to what LightKnight was talking about. It definitely was not a heavy hitter.
Oops! I blew it completely, didn't I? Still, there is no reason to not recommend ZombiU ;)
Well, unless somebody gets a gimped copy of the game which forces them to play the last hour and a half over and over, that would be torturous :)
 

NerAnima

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Harry Mason said:
NerAnima said:
Harry Mason said:
ONE MILLION SNIPS!
All too Snippity...
Well, then I must be young and naive after all! Or maybe this is just my first time commenting on a Nintendo thread. I am still not angry, and I don't have an issue with Nintendo. I wouldn't buy their products if I had an issue with them. I was just criticizing what I thought was a hypocritical comment, and it seems I tapped into a mountain of boiling nerd. And then Mount Nerd erupted.

Maybe there are an army of people vying to destroy Nintendo with their hurtful internet words, and Nintendo fans are just reacting appropriately to years of abuse. But I'll tell you this much, when I post something critical about, say, Sony, the reaction is much more "Mmmkay pumpkin *pat pat*" and much less "WHY ARE YOU TEARING MY LIFE APART?!"

I mean, that person I was arguing with sent me a personal message to tell me I had personally made her relapse into some sort of illness. Because I said I didn't think Miyamoto was creative. I just... What...
This may be your first time in a Nintendo thread, but look at the people in this thread alone; claiming that Nintendo is going bankrupt, then willfully ignoring any and all evidence that it is clearly not the case.

You don't have an issue with Nintendo, good, I'm glad to hear that, but there are some who will use any thread about Nintendo to get on the soapbox and start claiming the end of the company, usually in the same tone one would have declared the end of the world before 2012. In this cluster-f*ck, it may become difficult to differentiate one with a legitimate complaint from someone who just doesn't like Nintendo.

I think that the thing with Sony is that most people haven't taken as many shots in its direction; although the pumpkin bit sounds more condescending, which would be more annoying than the rage, at least to me.

I don't know what to tell you about the illness bit, it's possible to have happened, but for something like that to have happened over this...

I like Miyamoto, I like Schafer, they're both really creative artists, both of whom have flaws, just as their companies do, and Miyamoto is getting pretty old, so he does need to let others have creative control. I think you're a nice person, so let's agree that they're both good at what they do (make creative games) and enjoy the rest of our day. If not, oh well, I'm going to go buy Omega Ruby because that's the one Pokemon game I've been legitimately looking forward to since 2010.

Yes, I have a love affair with the Hoenn region, no, I'm not shamed about it in the slightest. >.>