I'm surprised Yahtzee didn't bring up Deus Ex: Invisible War, with the most bizarre and unnecessary gender split ever.
Yahtzee this sounds like an MRA rant against "the draught" I'd expect better from youVault101 said:upon a second reading this isn't quite as agreeable as I thought it was
[quote/]Specifically I don't agree that video games are misogynistic just because there are certain tropes they tend to fall back on a lot. It is true that there are an awful lot of game stories where the protagonist is male and the female character exists either to be rescued or to die and give the protagonist motivation. We'll call that the hero-damsel narrative. I don't think that hero-damsel enforces misogyny. After all, the protagonist, the male, is the one who has it worst. He's the one who has to put himself at pain, and even die, over and over again, in an endless cycle of torment, for the benefit of the women.
When is that not the case? All protagonists of AAA games are created to appeal to a perceived market.Ronack said:Though, we should complain when that grizzled, thirty year old man is there simply to appeal to a market.
Right but what are they morally obligated to reinforce or echo? Our world and demands for validation. Thats our job as people of this era. Just like it was Id Software's inclination to reflect all the "aliens", heavy metal, and HR geiger and cultural nihilist interests that were in their hearts to give us DOOM. Nobody's going to on a cultural level say 'SURE! Thats perfectly okay.' Only open minds and early adopters, or viewers looking for something to be angered at WANT to feel offended. They couldnt send an open letter and expect somebody to make that game. They took initiative to build that vision, the rest of the industry didnt agree with at the time. Some of us care, some only want the gameplay to be solid. All these considerations have to be balanced in the communication value of a game. I expect the news and documentaries or stuff based on a true story to get the story and atmosphere straight. A leisurely play engine while certainly can improve itself to open up to more people is a social contract of whatever somebody wants to express and whos willing to bite. Not a national anchor with the full burden and weight of reflecting special interests. I know its rough but thats how it is. Id rather semi to non serious fiction overlap too greatly with the responsibilities of journalism and authoritative speech to speak the truth to modern society.Opellulo said:The question is wrong put.
The core of the matter isn't choosing your avatar's gender, but how gender differences are portrayed; even sandbox or female lead games fall deep into lazy stereotype territory. While it's true that you can gender-swap Lara, no amount of scenes from "The Descent" or repetitions of "You can do it, Lara" can override the characterization of Sam: annoying, powerless damsel in distress that works as goal to reach for most of the game. Even Mass Effect does a very poor job in characterizing genders: it makes EVERY female character a "princess" (a character whole main conflict is tied to her fatherly figure) heck even most of the male characters fall in the same pattern; the whole Mass Effect World seems based on daddy issues... And using the same trick again and again isn't to me a sign of good writing, or a good example of videogame maturity.
Lazy storytelling is a problem because it reiterates false ideas and creates dangerous associations: take for example every modern military shooter; where the fun of playing squirt guns is delivered in the same package of much more troublesome themes like militarism, jingoism and "war on everyone who isn't us".
Videogames have still a long road to do until they can reach cultural maturity, too bad they are already a major cultural force so the things can get very messy very quickly...
I would just like to add that even in the case of a simple indie game using sprites gender swapping is not a trivial thing. Most indie game developers are working on a shoe string budget. They have to be really clever about how they spend that budget. Creating an extra 30 protagonist sprites for a male version of the main character means they lose 30 sprites from the rest of their game. That might be 10 enemies or 2 boss fights that the developer is losing.Aaron Sylvester said:But how does one make a female's gender specifically relevant to a game in the fps/action/adventure/rpg/etc genres that dominate the industry?Rebel_Raven said:Like Yahtzee says, there's almost no games out there where being a woman is relevant. Males get treated better than that.
Mother rescuing her children? But if you threw that idea at a publisher they'd just convert it to father rescuing his children since male protagonists sell better and make for slightly more convincing men-of-action.
Because designing, coding and animating an extra gender isn't free and effortless. "Why not just have optional stuff catering to EVERYONE?" is a very easy question to ask when you're not the one having to create all that. At that rate people will start asking every game two have multiple genders and at least 4 races (of all those genders) because it's apparently just so easy. Where does it end?Rebel_Raven said:But if there's no point in the gender one way, or the other, then why not have both genders be available? Make your work a bit more welcoming in exchange for it being shallow? Of course its optional, but expecting people to like it when you only pick one gender when the plot doesn't call for gender, is not going to go well.
Sure if we're talking about an indie game using basic sprites/models then having tons of inclusive options isn't an issue, but the cost skyrockets if we're talking about AAA games using current/next-gen graphics. I mean when looking at something like The Witcher, a female option would involve cost/effort that I can't even begin to imagine. When you're sitting there as a dev for the 100th hour animating the woman's cheekbones (or something) you begin to wonder "exactly how many people are even going to play as her? Is this worth it?". If a dev doesn't ask that question, the publisher certainly will.
After Mass Effect had only something like ~18% playing as female Shepherd I think Bioware had to stay pretty damn determined to keep offering full-fledged female options. But not every dev is Bioware, not every dev has a corporate monster like EA backing them. They either have to create something that sells or shoot their own profits in the foot.
I don't fault you for wanting more female protagonists/options, it's perfectly understandable. But you'll having to keep putting up with this for a very long time to come
Meh, not really. Being "partially witcher" is something like being "partially pregnant" If brutal, but still very limited physical training applied to a kid could suddenly get such kid anywhere near that, said world would be full of half-witchers. Those guys in the Kaer Morhen were not miracle makers and it''s not like they had a lot of time anyway. Whatever happens post-Thanedd could be simply attributed to an advantage *anyone* could be getting with any proper combat training. This is a world dominated by dirty peasants and unskilled vagrants after all. I mean, it *should* be attributed to that or "consistency" of the author would have to be challenged Or we can simply explain everything with "omfg powers" - but then witcher-y part gets even less relevant.XDSkyFreak said:Actualy there is ONE case of a female witcher. Well, a partial female witcher. She has the training of a witcher, but she could not go through the mutations. Her name is Cirilla Fiona Elen Riannon (Ciri for short), and she is going to be the crux of the story in witcher 3 due to her connection with both Geralt, Yennefer and the Wild Hunt (hell she even shows up in the trailer), as well as her unique nature in the witcher universe.
That 18% is gimped by BW's own admission they only took XBgold and PS+ member numbers those who had the free versions, no internet, or played on PC didn't get counted for their playthroughs.Aaron Sylvester said:After Mass Effect had only something like ~18% playing as female Shepherd I think Bioware had to stay pretty damn determined to keep offering full-fledged female options. But not every dev is Bioware, not every dev has a corporate monster like EA backing them. They either have to create something that sells or shoot their own profits in the foot.
Agreed. Although I will say that a notable % of those people playing femshep were doing it not because of "wooo empowered female!" but because they would rather be staring at a female ass/figure than a male ass/figure in a 3rd person shooter they were playing for 20+ hours. I know that was certainly my reason for always picking femshep.white_wolf said:That 18% is gimped by BW's own admission they only took XBgold and PS+ member numbers those who had the free versions, no internet, or played on PC didn't get counted for their playthroughs.Aaron Sylvester said:After Mass Effect had only something like ~18% playing as female Shepherd I think Bioware had to stay pretty damn determined to keep offering full-fledged female options. But not every dev is Bioware, not every dev has a corporate monster like EA backing them. They either have to create something that sells or shoot their own profits in the foot.
Some more interesting numbers to the whole Mass Effect 3 where that % is from: players customized their Sheps alot 80% customized Fshep while only 42% customized Mshep. And from the BSN open to all players of the 5512 responders 27% always played as Fshep compared to 22% who always played as Mshep, and 25% usually play as Fshep but have played Mshep atleast once compared to the identical number for the reverse. BW devs have been quoted as saying Fshep being added was worth it and GS emplyees have been quoted as being able to sell ME easier to female customers when Fshep was on the cover. Fans constantly sight Fshep's VA as more popular then Mshep's
I loved some of the mods they did for shep giving her glowing eyes or unique hair we begged BW to implement some of those with DLCs but nope. I played fshep because I foundout by accident in ME I could be her and thought, " Awesome! A woman space marine!" then she blew me away with her performance and I love just being her her attitude and not caring about how society views her for her looks or job choice really is spectacular.Aaron Sylvester said:Agreed. Although I will say that a notable % of those people playing femshep were doing it because if they're going to play an RPG for 20+ hours they'd rather be staring at a female ass than a male one, since ME has always been a 3rd person shooter. I know that was certainly my reason for always picking femshep (besides the slightly better VA).white_wolf said:That 18% is gimped by BW's own admission they only took XBgold and PS+ member numbers those who had the free versions, no internet, or played on PC didn't get counted for their playthroughs.Aaron Sylvester said:After Mass Effect had only something like ~18% playing as female Shepherd I think Bioware had to stay pretty damn determined to keep offering full-fledged female options. But not every dev is Bioware, not every dev has a corporate monster like EA backing them. They either have to create something that sells or shoot their own profits in the foot.
Some more interesting numbers to the whole Mass Effect 3 where that % is from: players customized their Sheps alot 80% customized Fshep while only 42% customized Mshep. And from the BSN open to all players of the 5512 responders 27% always played as Fshep compared to 22% who always played as Mshep, and 25% usually play as Fshep but have played Mshep atleast once compared to the identical number for the reverse. BW devs have been quoted as saying Fshep being added was worth it and GS emplyees have been quoted as being able to sell ME easier to female customers when Fshep was on the cover. Fans constantly sight Fshep's VA as more popular then Mshep's
It's also why the sheer amount of MODDING options available for femshep were like 10x more than male shep, entire sites dedicated thmselves to face mods + hairstyles to make the hottest femshep possible.
I call it Skyrim syndrome
Uh, which system are we talking about that's responsible for men being killed and kicked out of their homes? Was that addressed?slo said:No. Just no. [snipped facts about murder, suicide, and homelessness]Rutskarn said:Unfortunately--and I refuse to ignore this part--the system as it is constructed hurts women a fuck of a lot more than it hurts men.
Forgive me any possible ignorance of the lore of The Witcher, but aside from the specific fact of him being a Witcher (Something only possible with males for reasons I'm sure are well explained somewhere), exactly what parts of those games or Geralt's personality are male exclusive?Thanatos2k said:Geralt could not have the same personality as a female, or it simply wouldn't fit. The relationships with other characters and the relationship dynamics and motivations wouldn't be the same, unless you're going the Dragon Age 2 route and making every character inexplicably bisexual. Come to think of it, use Dragon Age 2 as another example.
Hm. Okay.slo said:I believe we are talking about the current social system, that Rutskarn called "patriarchy" in his post a couple of lines above the quote.
Eh. Depends how you measure "hurt," which is a wasted conversation if there ever was one since the standard is entirely subjective. You seem to think death is the worst hurt anyone can suffer (my apologies if I misunderstand you), whereas I think death is the end of all hurts and the lifetime of hurt a person has to endure is the greater pain. I don't say that to try to change your mind or anything, but just to illustrate how much this discussion relies on individual perspective.slo said:The numbers don't exactly show that women are hurt more by it, or that it benefits men in general.