Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[makano]

Is it so much of a crime to like big breasts now?

Did anyone actually say or imply it was?


I was trying to be funny there but it fell flat.

On a more on topic point how come you say there are only cardboard women in games i seem to remember Alyx Vance is a very developed female in the half life games she takes on 6 vs 1 cops with stun sticks invents the gravity gun and kills a shit load of alien scum then you have Gordon Freeman hes silent MIT grad who got lucky with a crowbar.

In fact the game's i play are full of bad ass women(but then again feminists dismiss that as male power fantasy).

So i pose a challenge you all to make a female character that en tales what you want then i also challenge you to make a male character that's not a a twilight wet dream or brown hair soldier number 54 then put them in a setting that fits a game universe.

Then again this is the internet no one will step up to the plate they would rather ***** about it than fix it.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Ah. I have no idea what that nmber means short of a reasonable guess at howm any games per year at best let you play as a woman. <.<

It's not -games- in and of themselves that offend me on a game by game basis. I don't think I've seen a game that really offended me. I'm half asian, and laughed at playing the old Shadow Warrior.
Bayonetta, DoA and it's non core games, rumble roses, and Dragon's Crown don't offend me.
It's the fact that games, as a group, largely rely on oversexualized women, or at least sexy women. I'm not seeing a huge variety among them, I'm not seeing a lot of agency, and I'm definitely not seeing them very often. That's what bothers me.

Honestly, if the women saw games that included them, and interested them, and maybe had the women of the game reasonably dressed, not pointing their butts at the player on box art, or excessively/unnecessarily in game, women would come. It doesn't even have to be solely aimed at women, it just needs to be pretty inclusive. Treat them as gamers, and let them get pandered to some, especially on consoles to help get their feet wet, and you'll grow the product.

Even playing as I do, I'm hard pressed to pick up just any game these days. I mean I love gaming, but if I'm going to play an underwritten character, it's going to be a woman. <.<
I'm glad that this year felt more inclusive than years before.
I mean I can play as a guy if the game and character grabs my interest, but my bar's pretty high lately.

I grew up gaming, honestly. From the NES to PS3. I'm more tolerant to games catering more towards guys than anything, and getting little to nothing of bones thrown my way year after year in the past. Others might not be more forgiving, and those people should be considered.

Yea, you might think again about why females are not included in games in some instances. It's not a new thing. Even Final Fight got riped up. Anyway Activision included female characters in multiplayer and they are not having a field day.

I think you are seeing a lot of things but not really what I see. Few games, outside MMOs, rely on sexy female to sell themselves. And even in MMOs they are used as a cream on a cupcake, not cupcake itself. Nor do I see over sexualized girls on game covers (actually I want to see more females on them when females are important part of the game). Those days are behind us, covers no longer sell games the way they used to.

But, again, women are as numerous as men in gaming, and largest demographics group in gaming is actually female. But they don't play on PS3, or any console. They are not interested in CoD, or Street Fighter, or Uncharted which has some of best female characters in gaming to date or Bayonetta which is greatest female empowerment statement in gaming history or even something cute and innocent like Giana Sisters Twisted Dream. They play different games and those games get geared towards female demographics.

To say again, I know what it's like to be messed up in gaming world. My nationality is, outside 4X games, either War Criminal or Terrorist. But you don't see me going around complaining. I'm not target demographic so I'm out of luck.

Oh, I know it's not a new thing. I've watched the rise and fall of female characters, the evenlope pushing of the sexualization grow and grow, and such.

Few games rely on sexualization? In the long run, sure, since few games have women. But even Tomb Raider's Lara Croft was based off a model, and she's a lil' noisy when breathing.
Remember Me? Just look at the cover.
I'm not saying that they can't exist but I figure they hold up as examples.

I gotta say it flat out, female NPCs likely don't mean anything to women who're interested in gaming.
Bayonetta is extremely polarizing between the sex positive and sex negative sorts, and it's not hard to see why.

CoD has very few female characters but once word spreads women are being included, they're in.

Women do play street fighter, and I've heard of some in SF tournaments on a more pro level.

As much as Giana Sisters stand as a decent game where the female protagionists are done fairly well, I gotta ask, how well known is that game beyond intense gamers who pay attention to gaming? The women who're turned off by the way gaming's gone aren't hanging out at the windows waiting, they need their attention grabbed.

So, your nationality is getting painted badly. Why not complain about it? You certainly are allowed to.
You can't say "Something like that's hapening to me, so stop complaining" and expect it to work. Having a thick skin only goes so far. Decades of trying to put up with my pet peeves have worn my skin away, and I'm really tolerant. Again, imagine the women who aren't as tolerant because it's the first impression?
As much as a nationality can get painted as the bad guy, I can't think of it being consistently, and heavily done for a long time. Sure, kinda often, but I don't think it in stacks up vs women getting sexualized. And it's way easier to pretend the soldier you're playing as comes from your nationality, imo, than pretending a guy is a woman.
That's not to say I don't have empathy for you, here. I'm not going to outright say "suck it up" so much as try and point out that where you stand isn't as close to where women stand as you think.
I can see where you're coming from, and I wouldn't mind it much at all if you elaborated.

 

[Divine Miss Bee]

until there is no longer such a question as "does feminism belong in (thing)?" the answer will be YES.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Yes.
I've even created a perfect game so everyone will be satisfied.
You play a half-black, half-asian, lesbian, jewish-born-but-identifies-as-muslim, overweight, transsexual, genderfluent, gender-queer, deaf-blind-mute, demi-sexual, otherkin transwoman in a wheelchair, and your goal is to smash the patriarchy.

Alternatively

Every character is a shapeless, grey, homogenous, featureless blob without a voice or dialogue, doing absolutely nothing that could be construed as gender-specific behavior.

There, now everyone should be happy.

I know you're probably joking, or something, but why heap all the first example's qualities onto one character? Spread them out, randomize, and go for variety. Gaming in general will probably be better off for the variety, wouldn't it?

Example 2? why not? i'unno, sounds pretty new to me. Or atleast out of the norm. Sounds like variety! Huzzah!

Gish?
That's actual a game called "Gish"

But I count on you to find something bad about it

There's actually a game about the second example called Gish? *looks it up.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_(video_game)

Nah, gender seems to be clearly implied in the game.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

This question came up couple weeks ago in a blog. It detailed one guy's experience playing an online multiplayer game. He performed a violent action against a male avatar that he has done hundreds of times before. A female voice, who was playing that particular male avatar, accused him of being sexist for doing that to her. If that wasn't enough of a buzzkill, half an hour later, she tracked him down in the game and continue to berate him.

I'm for women equality. There are serious issues around the world where that kind of passion and dedication is needed. When you take up an issue in gaming, and claim that you are doing so because you are a feminist. You are devaluing what feminism is about.

What it's actually about is faux rage. Being self-righteously upset about a non-issue. So, you can release whatever anger and stress you've dealt with that day on somebody anonymous online. Yeah, doing that is fun and addictive. Yet, it really does negative impact.

So, isn't about enough time to call B.S. on anyone who try to make a mountain over a molehill about sexism. When you take the time and breakdown their argument about videogames. It really comes down to lazy writing in general. Not some evil patriarchy trying to keep the women down by having Princess Peach getting kidnapped in every game.

One woman uses sexism claim for personal revenge -> All sexism arguments are crap.

Well if that wasn't an impressively executed non-sequitur, I don't know what is.

 

[runic knight]

-snip-

Sorry, would you rather I change it to "pointlessly complain/defend"? I am using the term in the most common way it is at the present, that of pointless or unjustified complaining or nagging. And I mean that towards both sides, not one in particular. Given I am talking about the flame wars that go on in the comment sections of those articles themselves, I think it fits well enough. To those that may take offense to the word choice, please understand the point I am trying to make...? Not sure how else it may have not been conductive to a conversation if not implications of one side being in the right or the "bad word" aspect of the word "*****".

 

[carnex]

Oh, I know it's not a new thing. I've watched the rise and fall of female characters, the evenlope pushing of the sexualization grow and grow, and such.

Few games rely on sexualization? In the long run, sure, since few games have women. But even Tomb Raider's Lara Croft was based off a model, and she's a lil' noisy when breathing.
Remember Me? Just look at the cover.
I'm not saying that they can't exist but I figure they hold up as examples.

I gotta say it flat out, female NPCs likely don't mean anything to women who're interested in gaming.
Bayonetta is extremely polarizing between the sex positive and sex negative sorts, and it's not hard to see why.

CoD has very few female characters but once word spreads women are being included, they're in.

Women do play street fighter, and I've heard of some in SF tournaments on a more pro level.

As much as Giana Sisters stand as a decent game where the female protagionists are done fairly well, I gotta ask, how well known is that game beyond intense gamers who pay attention to gaming? The women who're turned off by the way gaming's gone aren't hanging out at the windows waiting, they need their attention grabbed.

So, your nationality is getting painted badly. Why not complain about it? You certainly are allowed to.
You can't say "Something like that's hapening to me, so stop complaining" and expect it to work. Having a thick skin only goes so far. Decades of trying to put up with my pet peeves have worn my skin away, and I'm really tolerant. Again, imagine the women who aren't as tolerant because it's the first impression?
As much as a nationality can get painted as the bad guy, I can't think of it being consistently, and heavily done for a long time. Sure, kinda often, but I don't think it in stacks up vs women getting sexualized. And it's way easier to pretend the soldier you're playing as comes from your nationality, imo, than pretending a guy is a woman.
That's not to say I don't have empathy for you, here. I'm not going to outright say "suck it up" so much as try and point out that where you stand isn't as close to where women stand as you think.
I can see where you're coming from, and I wouldn't mind it much at all if you elaborated.

As I said, I'm a minority of customers. There isn't more gender neutral genre among "hardcore" games then 1on1 fighing games to my knoledge. But still females are very small percentage of player base. There are gender neutral shooters like Borderlands but, again, they are very small percenage of players. I undersatnd how market works and I understand that demanfing some things i equall to bashing head against the wall. Simply I'm out of luck. If you are small minority in some genre, you are out of luck too. That's how the maket rules. People here somethimes make mods for PC games to include us but thats about as far as it goes.

And everything in big budget gaming is geared towards profit. Who spends more money that anyone on big budget games and gaming accesoiries? Males 18-31. And that's target demographics for those games. Who spends most money on facebook/smarphone games with microtransactions? Females late twenties-early thirties. So they gearthose games more towards that demographics.

That is not to say that threre are no exceptions, but majority gos after the most abundant source of money. Since mainstream goes after most profitable genres and demographics, to get something else you should look at indie market. There is a ton of gender neutral and even some female specific stuff that is not Dinner Dash 452.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Oh, I know it's not a new thing. I've watched the rise and fall of female characters, the evenlope pushing of the sexualization grow and grow, and such.

Few games rely on sexualization? In the long run, sure, since few games have women. But even Tomb Raider's Lara Croft was based off a model, and she's a lil' noisy when breathing.
Remember Me? Just look at the cover.
I'm not saying that they can't exist but I figure they hold up as examples.

I gotta say it flat out, female NPCs likely don't mean anything to women who're interested in gaming.
Bayonetta is extremely polarizing between the sex positive and sex negative sorts, and it's not hard to see why.

CoD has very few female characters but once word spreads women are being included, they're in.

Women do play street fighter, and I've heard of some in SF tournaments on a more pro level.

As much as Giana Sisters stand as a decent game where the female protagionists are done fairly well, I gotta ask, how well known is that game beyond intense gamers who pay attention to gaming? The women who're turned off by the way gaming's gone aren't hanging out at the windows waiting, they need their attention grabbed.

So, your nationality is getting painted badly. Why not complain about it? You certainly are allowed to.
You can't say "Something like that's hapening to me, so stop complaining" and expect it to work. Having a thick skin only goes so far. Decades of trying to put up with my pet peeves have worn my skin away, and I'm really tolerant. Again, imagine the women who aren't as tolerant because it's the first impression?
As much as a nationality can get painted as the bad guy, I can't think of it being consistently, and heavily done for a long time. Sure, kinda often, but I don't think it in stacks up vs women getting sexualized. And it's way easier to pretend the soldier you're playing as comes from your nationality, imo, than pretending a guy is a woman.
That's not to say I don't have empathy for you, here. I'm not going to outright say "suck it up" so much as try and point out that where you stand isn't as close to where women stand as you think.
I can see where you're coming from, and I wouldn't mind it much at all if you elaborated.

As I said, I'm a minority of customers. There isn't more gender neutral genre among "hardcore" games then 1on1 fighing games to my knoledge. But still females are very small percentage of player base. There are gender neutral shooters like Borderlands but, again, they are very small percenage of players. I undersatnd how market works and I understand that demanfing some things i equall to bashing head against the wall. Simply I'm out of luck. If you are small minority in some genre, you are out of luck too. That's how the maket rules. People here somethimes make mods for PC games to include us but thats about as far as it goes.

And everything in big budget gaming is geared towards profit. Who spends more money that anyone on big budget games and gaming accesoiries? Males 18-31. And that's target demographics for those games. Who spends most money on facebook/smarphone games with microtransactions? Females late twenties-early thirties. So they gearthose games more towards that demographics.

That is not to say that threre are no exceptions, but majority gos after the most abundant source of money. Since mainstream goes after most profitable genres and demographics, to get something else you should look at indie market. There is a ton of gender neutral and even some female specific stuff that is not Dinner Dash 452.

I dunno, a nationality as a minority? You've likely millions of men and women who'll rally with you to have a better image in the world.

Borderlands is extremely compeditive for a co-op game. Open a chest, see -1- really good piece of loot... then argue over who gets it, or one just submits until they're at a point whre they aren't useful anymore and the person that's carrying them as they got all the good loot will get mad about it, and, well, it gets ugly. Believe me.
In the base games of the series women are in the usual archetypes of questionable use as Siren goes from rogue to medic. And they're still a minority.
Mechromancer kinda has my interest in borderlands 2, but the loot issues still turn me off.
I don't know how appealing it is to women. You can find women playing borderlands on youtube, but for me? I'm a team player with little ego, yet I wanna be useful. Borderlands seems like an ill fit unless I solo, and if I do, then... I'm really missing out on the beauty of co-op.

As for fighting games, I say they're far more gender neutral than a lot of games. They have decent amounts of women in a variety of styles, and personality, though I'm not sure how big of a part most playin the grand scheme of the game's story, but that's generally overlookable.

The problem with your "they aim for profit" argument is the game industry is dieing. Slowly bleeding out, but bleeding out none the less.
There's a lack of diversity in approaches, and a lack of variety.
The way things are with the industry are slowly changing, but if they'll change fast enough is the question.

The indie market isn't always the answer. My laptop is weak. My android tablet is really unreliable and needs replacing. Indie gaming outside of consoles, and even on consoles is a bit rough for me. I imagine there's a lot of women who are even less willing/able than I am to invest in the indie market, or even sift through the thousands of "meh" games in Steam to find a game they like.
It's not about me, entirely, here. I'm looking out for others as best I can. I care about the industry and all I can do is not demand, but suggest what could be done. Maybe someone with clout in the industry'll notice me? I dunno. At the worst, it's me venting about something I'm passionate about.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

As much as Giana Sisters stand as a decent game where the female protagionists are done fairly well, I gotta ask, how well known is that game beyond intense gamers who pay attention to gaming? The women who're turned off by the way gaming's gone aren't hanging out at the windows waiting, they need their attention grabbed.

I know it's bad form to just take a snippet out of your comment but this kind of bugs me... and honestly I'm having a hard time putting into words why because it seems so obvious. You're saying it's the fault of the game makers that the customers aren't looking for the game they're selling? If the person isn't even paying attention to gaming then I have to ask, why do we care about what they think? If the person is too lazy to actually turn on their freaking computer, get on the internet and do a google search of "games with female protagonists" then that's their fault, not the person that made the product.

 

[white_wolf]

Gaming doesn't need feminisum's girl power/ empowerment trope where they simply give the fem lead all male characteristics like their stoc, they kick ass no matter if its a brick wall or a 1000lb robot they're punching, see Vanquez or Kill Bill, not quite man with boobs but it could go worse if too much feminisum is thrown in where the fem lead is so empowered her male supporting characters could be made to be weak unable to function without her or made to be idiots incapable of doing anything she doesn't tell them to do. Its one thing to have the men fallowing orders its another to spell out their jobs to them like they're children.

What Gaming DOES NEED however are COMPELLING female characters that are multidimensional, non sex toy, women who have either internal or external strength, have personalities that are great, motives and goals that are logical, they need to be rememberable as in not carbon copies of one another unique personalities. When women say they want better representation most mean they want fem leads and fems in other roles that are portrayed as people not toys for boys or moonlighting dominatrices (or were on their way to that job when they decided to call in sick and help the lead in his journey) as or tools no more then your aid kit that have their uses then need to go on the shelf.

I think this is why the industry is hesitant to make fem leads more then rare because if they bumped that number up to often then each woman lead would have to be unique, individualistic, her own person with her own goals, maybe a love interest, and be relateable on an emotional level Nillin is a good start here. However being the game industry itself shows a high president for carbon copy heroes that don't require much effort save make his cataylist for shooting everybody more bloody horrific then the last hit games lead this shows on average is they don't like to try to make compelling male heros let alone have to do it for women. The industry would have to try to make great heroes or at least ones that can related to more people and trying means time, larger game development times, maybe less realistic graphics, and less money in the short term. In the long term however that means more players of both sexes and new blood players joining up.

A reason I think having more compelling fem leads or games that market with their fem audience in mind but have leads be made male would be a bonus you get more depth in the characters, more realistic portrayals of both sexes so men crying sexism for current games can play these and not feel like thats a huge thing for them either, we get deeper characters both lead and supporting, games can be more innovative with themes and issues and plot types. These games could make whole new standards for story, protagonists, and general character depth. Women back in the 70's loved the games for their fun and fun can be inclusive not exclusive.

 

[carnex]

the fact that you consider Bayonetta the 'Greatest Female Empowerment of all time' speaks volumes of this) and your last little paragraph here is a 'Well my demographic is portrayed negatively but you don't see ME complaining' which is just... well, a dumb and apathetic thing to say. So I must ask before I pursue this any further - do you really, genuinely give a single fuck about this issue, or are you just here because people keep responding to you?

1) Well, once you understand what it means to own one's own sexuality you'll understad why Bayonetta is exactly that and why that chatacterer never became sex symbol in gaming world even if she flirts every single seconf of on screen time.

2) You must know which battles to fight to win the war. You don't go slamming the head against the wall. In financially driven market, like high budget gaming, unless you are reasonably big market your voice does not count.

And you must understand that just becouse you feel offended you are not entitled to change what you don't like. Just becouse you dont like something doesen't taht there aren't others who do. And where there is a market, someone is going to provide the product.

Not having something is not the answer, having opsite too is. You don't have any right to tell me what I should enjoy and what I should not. Not in a million years. Likewise I don't try to tell you what to like, it's your own taste ond opinion.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

As much as Giana Sisters stand as a decent game where the female protagionists are done fairly well, I gotta ask, how well known is that game beyond intense gamers who pay attention to gaming? The women who're turned off by the way gaming's gone aren't hanging out at the windows waiting, they need their attention grabbed.

I know it's bad form to just take a snippet out of your comment but this kind of bugs me... and honestly I'm having a hard time putting into words why because it seems so obvious. You're saying it's the fault of the game makers that the customers aren't looking for the game they're selling? If the person isn't even paying attention to gaming then I have to ask, why do we care about what they think? If the person is too lazy to actually turn on their freaking computer, get on the internet and do a google search of "games with female protagonists" then that's their fault, not the person that made the product.

It's fine as long as you have the context, I guess. ^^

No, it's not their fault that people aren't looking for the games they're selling. But if their games are hard to know about then it's not really the consumer's fault either, is it?

Who says a person not looking doesn't care about gaming? You don't always know what you want exists. There might be women who want to game, maybe go a bit beyond casual, but they see games where women do things in bikinis first and foremost. They might delve into indie but see thousands of games with dudes for dudes and played by dudes, and not see Giana Sisters, or something similar. Their computer might not be powerful enough to run those games smoothly.
Why on earth would a person who doesn't feel they're being catered to keep their fingers on the pulse of an industry that continually have bad news?
I'm not gunna say "Giana sisters needs TV commercials" though it'd really help, I bet, but word needs to spread somehow.
It helped that the game got on PSN, though as I know the game from there.

Google turns up decent results, but damn it all, does it not say anything that they gotta GOOGLE it? Who's -trying- to get their attention? Maybe ther are women who don't know they're gamers until they see a game that's desireable? Maybe letting non-consumers know they're included might actually have an impact?!
You gotta look at all the variables and all the angles. You can't just draw the shortest line. Sometimes you gotta connect the dots.

Honestly, when I got fed up with the sea of dude protagonists, I did what you proposed and googled for games, and even trying to keep my eye out for games with women in them, minus indie games as I've said it a thousand times, my laptop's terrible and I prefer consoles, I'm not even remotely satisfied.
My S.O. followed suit and she's largely burned out on games due to the drought.
There's a frustratingly small window of console games that allow a woman to be a non-sexualized woman. Consoles are really simple to get into. It'd be a falsehood to say that a PC is always 100% reliable, or even as reliable as a console.

 

[Redd the Sock]

I really only mention remember Me since it is put out there as "see how sexist the industry is" bits since it did have to fight for a female lead. My response it usually "did you buy it" and if the answer is no, then "it isn't the industry's fault for following the money, it's your for not supporting what you say you want when it gets here, and no excuses about the game sucking, you should have supported a game doing what you wanted." I could probably come up with some other games for the mold, but for now, it fits. The thing is, limited options should push up the sales charts if the demographic is there as, if you're the only female lead in town, you get all the business while males leads split the sales. When excuses get made, credibility of the fanbase gets shot, especially in the digital age where you aren't cut off from anything you want.

Well, no. If someone releases a bad product, you are not obligated to buy that product just because you stumped for one particular element of it. I love tactical turn base combat games and constantly shout for more to be made, but there's a given assumption there that I expect them to maintain a reasonable quality standard. I have a hard time thinking you'd find a single rational human being who would advocate for buying garbage simply because you approved of one thing.

You seem to be conflating "Want female leads" with "Females lead is the ONLY thing they want, everything else is irrelevant". I may want an amazing hot dog, but if you serve it to me in a moldy bun with shit for condiments, I'm going to send it back, and no amount of "YOU ASKED FOR A HOT DOG EAT YOUR HOT DOG" is going to convince me otherwise.

I didn't play remember me, but I don't recall reviews calling it toxicly bad so much as medicore. Less a moldy bun than a day old one. To borrow your first metaphor, you said you wanted a yellow car, but now want to complain you got a pontiac instead of a cadilac.

I don't confuse anything, I just acknowledge that the guys behind these decisions can be as smart as a really dumb box of rocks, and that making excuses as to why you didn't support things you wanted, just leach them to entrench to those that do show up. Just a theory, but this may be how gaming developed into what it is over the last decade and a half: efforts to please females gamers as a core market got met with excuses why the didn't like Parsite Eve, Tomb Raider, Heavenly Sword, or Final Fantasy X-2 to name a few, so they focus on Call of Duty and boobies for the guys and famville clones for the girls as those sold well. This isn't limited to gender issues. I get the same anger from people that want new IPs but only seem to support cloned sequels. In a case by case basis, you may be right, but over time, a pattern of excuses form. You end up coming off no different than the nitpicker I mentioned earlier: I want something, but it isn't quite right so forget it.

And in all honesty, even if it was toxicly bad, given the specific controversy preceding Remember Me's release, that might have been a good time to hold one's nose and put money down in support. Face it, publishers didn't think a female lead would sell, and poor sales will just keep that mindset true in their minds. I know you want to have your cake and eat it too, but sometimes you have to make a choice which is more important, supporting ideas you want more of, or only playing high quality games. Focus on the latter and you just send companies the idea that they don't have to listen to you on gender issues as you'll buy whatever over budgeted AAA title they crap out even if the only female character is a half naked princess to be rescued.

 

[NinjazInside]

Can i say that, this topic is a veritable minefield, yes there needs to be more female protagonists, less sexualisation and other myraid of topics sorted out. But everything is slow to change, and the OP was about how Feminism is abused, well at least that is my interpretation, my response to that is i have yet to meet one person that has done that, though maybe they were screaming with their mic turned off or such. I do well at games like Halo, and people have messaged me before very angry scathing words, and i have myself sent some really ridiculous messages cause i was happy and giggly at the time and they were more just silly things instead of intentional insults. I personally believe that the gaming community has its small portions of scum that keep this preaching of games are for guys, but that is becoming highly redundant, i enjoy playing with my girlfriend and destroying her, she takes it on the chin well, and fights evenly with one of my male friends.

But back on topic, i do not see how Feminism is a good topic to broach anymore, it is just a minefield of opinions and very little fact. I think one of the posts on the first page was some of the stupidest responses i've read, Lazy Writing, and why were these kinds of protector and protected stories created? Because at those times those who could catch and kill the food were in control. And those were the men. So society evolved around Men being the leaders, and that only ended within the last 100-150 years. And for a whole society to change we are going strong, making good head way. But that does not mean we should give up on the history of our cultures, they influenced how we think today, and yes women want to have more power. But that power should be equal, too often i have had arguments with militant feminists on what constitutes a feminist. My argument was i wanted equal rights between genders, sounds like feminism right? isn't that what they want right? that was completely disregarded, I was wrong apparently. Why was i wrong? because i didn't act enough? fair enough, i am passive about it, can't really change much only just turned 18 heading to University to study Physics.

But shouldn't winning hearts and minds be the goal of a movement like feminism? instead of shutting people out because they do not act enough like protest in rallies etc. no those protests/rallies should be there to get the attention of the average person and make them think about it, so when they are asked what their opinion is they have an informed answer, and as an MP in Britain recently showed, they will listen to their constituents, this occured over the issue on whether to intervene in Syria and the vast feelings of a Female MPs Constituents (who she emailed a good few hundred at least or so) were against intervention so despite her own views which she wisely refused to say, she went with her constituents majority view, a triumph of democracy in a small but significant way. But this could happen for feminism a push with enough supporters, not a few radicals that exclude others, could put forth a law that makes it illegal to set pay on gender, and any company found doing so will be punished by an appropriate sentence.

And this equally applies to gaming, enough demand for it and they will make more equally represented games, just do not forget that on the development teams of some of these games there are women as well, helping to shape them.

Rip into my post all you want, I will reply with my answers.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

As much as Giana Sisters stand as a decent game where the female protagionists are done fairly well, I gotta ask, how well known is that game beyond intense gamers who pay attention to gaming? The women who're turned off by the way gaming's gone aren't hanging out at the windows waiting, they need their attention grabbed.

I know it's bad form to just take a snippet out of your comment but this kind of bugs me... and honestly I'm having a hard time putting into words why because it seems so obvious. You're saying it's the fault of the game makers that the customers aren't looking for the game they're selling? If the person isn't even paying attention to gaming then I have to ask, why do we care about what they think? If the person is too lazy to actually turn on their freaking computer, get on the internet and do a google search of "games with female protagonists" then that's their fault, not the person that made the product.

It's fine as long as you have the context, I guess. ^^

No, it's not their fault that people aren't looking for the games they're selling. But if their games are hard to know about then it's not really the consumer's fault either, is it?

Who says a person not looking doesn't care about gaming? You don't always know what you want exists. There might be women who want to game, maybe go a bit beyond casual, but they see games where women do things in bikinis first and foremost. They might delve into indie but see thousands of games with dudes for dudes and played by dudes, and not see Giana Sisters, or something similar. Their computer might not be powerful enough to run those games smoothly.
Why on earth would a person who doesn't feel they're being catered to keep their fingers on the pulse of an industry that continually have bad news?
I'm not gunna say "Giana sisters needs TV commercials" though it'd really help, I bet, but word needs to spread somehow.
It helped that the game got on PSN, though as I know the game from there.

Google turns up decent results, but damn it all, does it not say anything that they gotta GOOGLE it? Who's -trying- to get their attention? Maybe ther are women who don't know they're gamers until they see a game that's desireable? Maybe letting non-consumers know they're included might actually have an impact?!
You gotta look at all the variables and all the angles. You can't just draw the shortest line. Sometimes you gotta connect the dots.

Honestly, when I got fed up with the sea of dude protagonists, I did what you proposed and googled for games, and even trying to keep my eye out for games with women in them, minus indie games as I've said it a thousand times, my laptop's terrible and I prefer consoles, I'm not even remotely satisfied.
My S.O. followed suit and she's largely burned out on games due to the drought.
There's a frustratingly small window of console games that allow a woman to be a non-sexualized woman. Consoles are really simple to get into. It'd be a falsehood to say that a PC is always 100% reliable, or even as reliable as a console.

Ah, I see what you mean now. I've always seen you as one of the better debaters of the other side in this discussion (In all the threads I've seen on it, on this site at least) so I was baffled by what I originally interpreted your comment to be.