Should one not write a story if it's offensive or plays upon sexist themes?

MeatMachine

Dr. Stan Gray
May 31, 2011
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Originality is difficult, since most creators are inspired by previous creators of similar interests. Running with similarities is fine, so long as you are good enough and innovative enough to make something distinguished.

As for criticism... listen to the thoughtful stuff, and ignore the rest. It doesn't matter how good you are or what talent you try to share, you WILL get lots of people who will try to shit all over you.

I've been writing for a while, and I can tell you firsthand that when you first start getting vehemently negative criticism, it can be discouraging - stay determined, and you will find a crowd if you have the skills.
 

Sigmund Av Volsung

Hella noided
Dec 11, 2009
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No, so long as you handle the themes properly and you write well no one will care. The line between 'confrontational' and 'offensive' works is a fine line to tread, but it's a risk worth taking if you truly want to tell your story.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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Aug 22, 2010
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DudeistBelieve said:
This one relates to me, because I'm a writer. And like all writers, I'm a pusshole. I'm fearing the day I finish my novel I've been working on since January on the world only for it to get shit on.

I bring this topic up because I saw something on Amazon that, for a moment, has shaken my confidence a bit. An E-book on Amazon, just as summary.

Andy Carter was happy. He had a solid job. He ran 5Ks for charity. He was living a nice, safe Midwestern existence. And then his wife left him for a handsome paramedic down the street.

We?re All Damaged begins after Andy has lost his job, ruined his best friend?s wedding, and moved to New York City, where he lives in a tiny apartment with an angry cat named Jeter that isn?t technically his. But before long he needs to go back to Omaha to say good-bye to his dying grandfather.

Back home, Andy is confronted with his past, which includes his ex, his ex?s new boyfriend, his right-wing talk-radio-host mother, his parents? crumbling marriage, and his still-angry best friend.

As if these old problems weren?t enough, Andy encounters an entirely new complication: Daisy. She has fifteen tattoos, no job, and her own difficult past. But she claims she is the only person who can help Andy be happy again, if only she weren?t hiding a huge secret that will mess things up even more. Andy Carter needs a second chance at life, and Daisy?and the person Daisy pushes Andy to become?may be his last chance to set things right.
Now, fair enough I think we've all seen this type of story before. It appears to be part of the manic pixie dream girl genre, 'cept here homeboy is like an adult. If I was looking for something to read, I'd pick it up, not expecting anything special. So I jump down to the negative reviews, and this is the one...

"Quirky girl helps man discover himself and come alive!" Which is a plot that's been done to death, really, and is sexist as all get-out toward both women and men. Ultimately it's a particular kind of male wish fulfillment, and if that's what you want to read, fine, but you can get an endless diet of it in pop culture without having to read this book.
Look I'll go as far as saying it is sexist, but does that mean the book shouldn't exist or even be read?

I suppose what I'm really asking here is, should an artist just create the art they want to make or should they be standing there asking, Does the world really need my voice too?
Trust me dude, nothing you create will be as hackneyed or cliche as the stupid sci-fi story I wrote (in the most charitable use of the word) for an assignment. I re-read it a year ago and outside of one or two core items I have never felt so ashamed of something I created. It was crap, crap of the highest order.

Also outside of a few died in the wool fuck-paste eaters I doubt any author writes anything that is maliciously bigoted. Usually it's just ignorance or a lack of frame of reference, so if there is one piece of advice I can give regarding artistic creation it is to meet people: coppers, crooks, deviants, straight arrows, heterosexuals, homosexuals, trainspotters, power lifters etc and hear their stories. We've all got one, even if each one won't be he Illiad. Perhaps the world doesn't need your voice, but maybe a bunch of confused and bored folks in North Carolina do.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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Aug 22, 2010
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LegendaryGamer0 said:
DudeistBelieve said:
I suppose what I'm really asking here is, should an artist just create the art they want to make or should they be standing there asking, Does the world really need my voice too?
I'm just going to probably repeat what's been said but in a worse way here.
Make exactly what you want, how YOU want it as you'd read it as it is YOUR story. The world doesn't have a need of anyone else's voice but they speak theirs, so you should as well because nothing makes yours less worthy of being out in the wild and you want to speak a story. Think about how many others have thought the same thing and could have ended up never releasing their stories out of fear. Many a library would be empty.

Unless you're writing solely to make money, in which case throw all that out the window and make a gay vampire BDSM novel. But you're not doing that so, have fun writing!
Well no one should do that since it would just be giving Sunstone the Twilight treatment :p
 

mduncan50

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Apr 7, 2009
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DudeistBelieve said:
This one relates to me, because I'm a writer. And like all writers, I'm a pusshole. I'm fearing the day I finish my novel I've been working on since January on the world only for it to get shit on.

I bring this topic up because I saw something on Amazon that, for a moment, has shaken my confidence a bit. An E-book on Amazon, just as summary.

Andy Carter was happy. He had a solid job. He ran 5Ks for charity. He was living a nice, safe Midwestern existence. And then his wife left him for a handsome paramedic down the street.

We?re All Damaged begins after Andy has lost his job, ruined his best friend?s wedding, and moved to New York City, where he lives in a tiny apartment with an angry cat named Jeter that isn?t technically his. But before long he needs to go back to Omaha to say good-bye to his dying grandfather.

Back home, Andy is confronted with his past, which includes his ex, his ex?s new boyfriend, his right-wing talk-radio-host mother, his parents? crumbling marriage, and his still-angry best friend.

As if these old problems weren?t enough, Andy encounters an entirely new complication: Daisy. She has fifteen tattoos, no job, and her own difficult past. But she claims she is the only person who can help Andy be happy again, if only she weren?t hiding a huge secret that will mess things up even more. Andy Carter needs a second chance at life, and Daisy?and the person Daisy pushes Andy to become?may be his last chance to set things right.
Now, fair enough I think we've all seen this type of story before. It appears to be part of the manic pixie dream girl genre, 'cept here homeboy is like an adult. If I was looking for something to read, I'd pick it up, not expecting anything special. So I jump down to the negative reviews, and this is the one...

"Quirky girl helps man discover himself and come alive!" Which is a plot that's been done to death, really, and is sexist as all get-out toward both women and men. Ultimately it's a particular kind of male wish fulfillment, and if that's what you want to read, fine, but you can get an endless diet of it in pop culture without having to read this book.
Look I'll go as far as saying it is sexist, but does that mean the book shouldn't exist or even be read?

I suppose what I'm really asking here is, should an artist just create the art they want to make or should they be standing there asking, Does the world really need my voice too?
Everyone has the right to tell whatever story they want to tell, and unless it is something which is advocating hate and violence towards a group, I don't think it should be blocked in any way. However, if you're going to write something that is sexist, racist, homophobic, or whatever, then you can't be hurt and surprised by people pointing out that fact. It doesn't mean it shouldn't exist, or that it may not have some sort of merit beyond the offense, however it will obviously limit the amount of people that will be interested in reading it.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
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I don't see why not? That odd episode or two about inequality between men or women gets trotted out at least every season in various Star Treks. There is a difference between writing about social issues and advocating for or against a social issue. It's what I like to call the 'Roark effect'. Most people can understand the difference.

Art by definition is its criticism. That's what makes it truth, whether in its depictions or its objection. If you just want to write mindless pap I'm sure you can slap together a few trope-y inhumans, throw in a regular human, play on aspects of insecure fragility of the human condition and the genuinely banal nature of our mundane existence, and pretend like it's a novel rather than a professionally written fanfic.

Congratulations ... you've successfully tapped into the mindset of the 99% of us who desire something more but are typically so divorced from our own salvation. To be fair, you're still providing a service to others for doing so. Just don't expect to be treated like the second coming of Kafka.
 

kenu12345

Seeker of Ancient Knowledge
Aug 3, 2011
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I think you are being too worried man. You have to put out your work. You can't be scared to offend someone. Heck some of the best books out there could be considered offensive to certain aspects of society cause they critici ed them. Its what made some Mark Twain books great and why I find it funny that some want to scrub things out of those books
 

JohnnyDelRay

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Jul 29, 2010
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There's a lot of crap out there in media which I wish didn't exist, and even more stuff that exists that is widely accepted and loved that I think we just have way too much of. It's the constant balance and counter-balance of people who do what their heart tells them, keep doing that and become successful, OR sell out or burn out. Every now and then you get someone who breaks the boundaries and is acknowledged and respected.

This goes for almost any creators - musicians, artists, writers, you name it. They have as much right to produce it as you do to ignore it.

Everybody is going to be offended by something, that doesn't give it the right to exist or not. You can't be for free speech but telling people they're not allowed to say something because you disagree with it. Now having said all that, if you're anxious about your work being rejected en masse, do yourself a favor and prepare for the worst. I mean that in the best way.

Here's why: If you do it because you love it and want to release it to give yourself and your creativity some validation, then just go for it, come what may. If you are doing it because you want those great reviews and a bigger paycheck, well you need to reassess what you're doing and think of how things are received these days. You want to be popular on a tried and tested formula? Ain't nothing wrong with that. There's a reason for a new CoD and Ass Creed game every year. You want to try and test the boundaries, write from the heart no matter what and see what comes out the other end? Best of luck to you!

Just remember, things are going to appear to get hard no matter how much you love what you're doing, merely from the fact that you're doing it to put bread on the table.
 

senordesol

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Oct 12, 2009
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Going to join the chorus here, but yes: write what you care about.

The question isn't 'does the world need my voice too', it's 'am I saying anything worth hearing'.

Shock people. Disturb people. And if someone has a problem with it, tell them to read something else.

I'm an author myself, so I know the sort of self-doubt you're experiencing all too well. But I'll say this: people will respect you WAY more if you've put more effort in making your work good than inoffensive.

Good luck, hit me up when you publish.
 

StormShaun

The Basement has been unleashed!
Feb 1, 2009
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Ah, my writing comrade.
I agree with most here, write what you want to write.

I don't want to throw out the obvious, but just look at the most notable erotic fiction book of the 21st century (yes, I'm also saddened that it has such a title), Fifty Shades of Gray. I'm surprised people weren't offended at some of the characters and relationships... although to be fair, I was more offended at the writing quality.

Anyway, back on topic. Do your idea, and don't forget, when you get published, they'll read through your material, and if anything if too offensive (if you ask me, that's a high bar to reach, heck, one of my ideas involve animal people, and destroying their moonbase. I can imagine that would annoy some community) they would probably start to negotiate and help you. So don't worry, such an issue isn't your problem.

Good luck!
 

K12

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Dec 28, 2012
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The funny thing is that the negative quoted in the OP, while scathing, does support the view that the book deserves to exist/ be written... just that it's a tired plot that a fair few people think consider to have dodgy implications.

There's still room to make a decent story out of this trope and a good version that deconstructed some of the typically disliked elements would be probably be very welcome.

I'm going to go against the general consensus slightly by saying that considering potential criticisms of your work while writing it can be worthwhile and help you to look more deeply into the themes or your story HOWEVER trying to make your work bullet-proof is impossible and trying to do that will just make your writing feel toothless and dull.
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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I was going to come in here saying that "A Modest Proposal" only works BECAUSE it was offensive, but the actual OP isn't even that deep.

Ah well, negative reviews come and go.
 

Erttheking

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senordesol said:
tell them to read something else.
No. Never do this. This is a counter-argument that basically says "I don't care what you think and nothing will ever change my mind," and it's constantly used to deflect all criticism. I've been writing for over half a decade and I swore I would never use this argument, because the point of a good author, one that grows and evolves, is that they listen to criticism. Listen to it, evaluate it, and then see if you can grow from it. Don't take all of it as the gospel, but don't shut it out either.
 

senordesol

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erttheking said:
senordesol said:
tell them to read something else.
No. Never do this. This is a counter-argument that basically says "I don't care what you think and nothing will ever change my mind," and it's constantly used to deflect all criticism. I've been writing for over half a decade and I swore I would never use this argument, because the point of a good author, one that grows and evolves, is that they listen to criticism. Listen to it, evaluate it, and then see if you can grow from it. Don't take all of it as the gospel, but don't shut it out either.
I would almost agree if all criticism was created equal. There's a difference between criticism of technique and criticism of the message. The OP is concerned about criticism of message, and THAT's when you tell people to 'F' off.

The author should be concerned about whether his message is effectively conveyed, not whether his message offends. By all means, critique away on whether the use of dialogue or motivation was consistent with the story at hand. But the instant you start complaining about how 'Harry Potter teaches kids that witchcraft is fine' (an argument that actually came up in my Christian School); that's NOT criticism; that's complaining.
 

freaper

snuggere mongool
Apr 3, 2010
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Recusant said:
If all you're looking for is commercial success, then... well, then I don't know what to tell you; I'm not a writer, but from what I've seen, commercial success is often less of a predictable science and more of some weird pseudo-pheromonal thing between the writer and the audience. But from an artistic standpoint? That's a different matter.
If you want to be a commercially successful writer you simply start churning out romance novels or YA fantasy literature. That shit is generic and formulaic as fuck but people will read the crap out of it if they like your brand (as my library can confirm).
 

The Enquirer

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As a writer, I'm working on a comic series partly set in the 40s. Me and my co-writer are going to address racism and sexism, and at times, it'll be pretty raw. Racism and sexism are things that exist and not addressing that if it fits into the story is almost as bad as the acts themselves. Aside from that racism and sexism are characteristics that can give your characters realistic, albeit unlikeable characteristics.

In short, do it right and you can give your audience reasons to hate a character or become invested in their development.
 

Bocaj2000

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Sep 10, 2008
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Two words... Nabokov's "Lolita"

/tread

But yeah, your voice is valuable even if it's not PC. If it's good, then fuck what they think based on superficial reasons.
 

Callate

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If we are to believe that we are capable of sorting good information from bad, of forming opinions and attitudes based on reasoned consideration of the alternatives and ideas that are lain before us, there is no idea that should be entirely exempt from contemplation. Even if only to say, "Yeah, that's a bad idea" and then put it aside.

Authors must to a degree be a product of the society that produced them. But second-guessing oneself, trying to fit the mold of others' expectations is poisonous to the creative process and to speaking clearly and honestly.

Write what speaks to you and let it stand. It's better to write something you care about that others think is inappropriate or cliched than to allow yourself to be a mediocre echo of someone else's point of view.
 

someguy1231

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Apr 3, 2015
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erttheking said:
Listen to it, evaluate it, and then see if you can grow from it. Don't take all of it as the gospel, but don't shut it out either.
Well, that's the rub, isn't it? How do you "evaluate" it? How do you figure out if you can "grow" from it? How do you decide which is "gospel" and which can be "shut out"? The answers to those questions will be different for pretty much everyone.