SJW Jim Sterling says Link has to be female and that violent video games promote rape culture.

Zacharious-khan

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We shall start at the beginning.

Elvis Starburst said:
You clearly didn't listen to what I said in response to your first post. Or you did and chose to ignore it. I'm not talking 'bout his videos (Which have some perfectly valid points). I'm mentioning your thoughts towards the OP, thinking that he was taking these videos seriously and calling Jim Sterling a SJW. The thread was a joke.
Why do you think OP's intentions matter to my original statement? And furthermore why do you think his original intentions should strictly dictate the how the discourse is to continue.
Finally do you believe my original statement to be false?
 

sumanoskae

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People on the internet have the uncanny ability to hold entire conversations with themselves and somehow remain convinced that their conclusions are relevant.
 

Gorrath

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Drathnoxis said:
Gorrath said:
I'd want a bunch of new cast myself but I don't know why fairness would be an issue even if it was just Link. Fairness to whom? Who would be slighted by just having a female Link? I'd be as cool with a female Gannon and/or a male Zelda as I would a female Link since none of their genders/sex matter all that much, especially since each game is usually a re-telling of the tale and may or may not have any solid continuity. It'd be just as fun and valid if you had a female Link with a bunch of new characters and not just a rehash of the other main cast.

Basically, I'm up for anything so long as it's fun/well made. I don't see how any of these factors are essential parts of having a good game, they are variables that can be switched around with no hindrance of having a good time.
Fair to Link, I guess. That he should be the only one to suddenly have a Schrodinger's gender just doesn't seem right to the character. Gender is a major defining trait for humans, to change that is to change who the character is. Suddenly making it possible for there to be a female Link after so long of established character is basically to remove Link as a character in a way. Changing all the established characters would distance it from the main canon, such as it is, it would feel like a spinoff in an alternate dimension.
I don't know that we need to be overly concerned with fairness to people that don't actually exist. If you feel that having a different gender would really fundamentally change the character in a way you don't like, I can't tell you otherwise, personal opinions and subjectivity and all, but I don't feel that way myself.

I will say that I don't believe it removes the character in any way, since Link is most defined by his adventure. He's the silent protagonist sort, where what happens to him/around him is what drives the narrative, not so much his own strong characterization. In that sense, having a female version of Link doesn't do anything to alter his/her experiences of the world. What do we really know about Link as a person other than: Hero of Time, goes on adventures, likes the color green? Is there any other trait that spans all the games that defines Link ? Would any of those things not work if Link was female?

As for the main cannon, I mean, the Legend of Zelda series is already notorious for not having a strong established cannon between the games. People can't even agree what chronology, if any, the games even have or whether all of them even occur in the same dimension so this would be anything but a new problem for the series. If anything, it'd be par for the course.
 

Erttheking

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008Zulu said:
Link is an established male. Unless he has a twin sister also named Link, then the gender swap makes sense. Unless Ganondorf slipped Link a potion to switch his gender... hmm. Maybe Nintendo don't want the Zelda series to be like some poorly written interactive novel?
Yes, each Link SO FAR is an established male. The thing is that each Link is a new character. Hell, it's heavily implied that the Link in Twilight Princess learns sword techniques from the Link from Ocarina of Time. So a new Link that's female could work.

Or at the very least if it couldn't work, Nintendo could come up with a better explanation than the BS one they gave about how apparently the Triforce of Courage is sexist. Doesn't even make sense, the Triforce isn't even IN half of the games.
 

minkus_draconus

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Drathnoxis said:
minkus_draconus said:
I'm for something in between. change genders where it works for the story/character. We have had all kind of fairies in the games so it doe snot matter what you do with them. I don't think the aspects of the triforce are tied to a gender so you can flip as many of them as you want any way. No reason Gannon(dorf) can't be a witch. No reason we cant have a prince with the triforce of wisdom. All the other characters are NPCs and offer a lot of variety anyway.

As for the Ice King's fan-fiction I see no problem with it. Have you watched any of the other episodes with Fiona and Cake?
I can't actually remember if I've seen any of the others. In that first one though, Fiona was a pretty terrible flip of Finn, only resembling him on the most superficial of levels. She has none of Finn's usual agency and pretty much spends the whole episode being led around by Prince Gumball. I really hate her design as well, as it falls into the standard pitfall of sexualized female designs, and is extremely pronounced when compared to the basically shapeless Finn. Her design also doesn't allow for the same free movement as Finn, because where his appendages are basically noodles she has thick, shapely arms and legs.
Right. IMO the differences and things you point out are because we are getting Ice Kings fantasy of these characters. I could be reading too much into it.
 

minkus_draconus

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EbonBehelit said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Also my issue with the idea of a black James Bond or a Female Link is that how can they present the concept of Link and Bond Female/Black without reducing to just being a preachy message about race and gender struggles? Because I dread that they say making Bond black has the risk of having a story about Black Bond going through the struggles that black people face with racism and all that and to that is just increadibly preachy and racist in itself because to me it implies all Black people's experiance is one of struggle and entropy.
Female Bond would be kinda stupid, since a huuuge part of Bond's character dynamic is his inherent 'male-ness'.

Black Bond, on the other hand, would be perfectly fine: Bond is British, and skin color doesn't matter nearly as much in the UK as it does in the US. No discrimination, no 'struggle' depicted on screen. Unless Black Bond travels to the US.
Wasn't one of the CIA guys he worked with in a few of the books black?
I always wondered why that character never made it to the screen.
 

minkus_draconus

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elvor0 said:
minkus_draconus said:
Drathnoxis said:
I notice not many people have interest in responding to Jim's video on violence.

I have a question for the people who want a gender swapped Link: do you want a full gender swap for all the main characters in the game (male Zelda, female Ganon, female Tingle, etc.) or simply a gender swap for Link alone?

I might be able to get behind a full gender swap as long as it's pulled off a bit better than that terrible Adventure Time episode. Just swapping Link doesn't really seem fair to me.
I'm for something in between. change genders where it works for the story/character. We have had all kind of fairies in the games so it doe snot matter what you do with them. I don't think the aspects of the triforce are tied to a gender so you can flip as many of them as you want any way. No reason Gannon(dorf) can't be a witch. No reason we cant have a prince with the triforce of wisdom. All the other characters are NPCs and offer a lot of variety anyway.
As a spin off or non cannon entry it would have to be, but you'd have to gender flip everyone for it to work, no half measures or picking and choosing. Ganon is always the same Ganon and thus has no room for being gender flipped on his own, unless you gender flip the Gerudo race to be one that is entirely male instead, as Ganon is King of the Gerudo by virtue of being the current man born once every 100 years. If you just gender flipped Ganon, someone else would have to have been king, and then Ganon would've been unlikely to have gotten hold of the triforce in the first place.

Zelda herself is a constant reincarnation of the goddess Hylia, thus fixing her sex quite solidly and potentially character to some extent.

I think at this point it's quite established that reincarnation in the Zelda universe is a lot less fluid than in other media or even the real world, as I think it's safe to assume that if characters get reincarnated as the same sex every time over many, many games, then that aspect doesn't change. Although Link is one character that can "somewhat" break the rules:

In the WW timeline the character you play as isn't actually part of the reincarnation cycle, and is instead tested in order to become The Hero and the take on the mantle of a /new/ cycle of reincarnation. Essentially if the reincarnation of Link is broken then there's room to do whatever you want so long as the character is courageous. Zelda I don't think has this wiggle room, being the literal reincarnation of a goddess.

So while Link is totally able to be switched under specific circumstances, I think it's /easier/ to just gender flip everyone and call it non canon, as a lonesome Female Link has quite large implications for which ever timeline she exists in. Or make it possible to choose Links gender (thus making it that all previous incarnations were female for that player).
Growing up with exposure to a lot of religions, gods and goddesses tend to play fast and loose with gender and reproduction. I take a much less gender fixed view of them. I think there is a lot about the culture, religion and environment we are raised with and how that forms our views on these things. Clearly this also informs our views of the various factors in this discussion.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
The thing is that each Link is a new character.
It's like they took the James Bond fan theory, and made a game around it :)

Companies coming up with utter BS reasons for characters in games is always hilarious. MGS5's Quiet still makes me smile. Ubisoft is still the funniest though. So we have Nintendo's ingame reason why Link is always male (however confusing it may be), I wonder if they themselves just don't like the idea of a female hero.
 

SweetShark

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The only Zelda game I played is Link to the Past and don't even finished it...
So my question is obvious one: The developers indeed said all Zelda games are connected or it is just a theory of fans?
 

Erttheking

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SweetShark said:
The only Zelda game I played is Link to the Past and don't even finished it...
So my question is obvious one: The developers indeed said all Zelda games are connected or it is just a theory of fans?
There's an official timeline to the games, although apparently they had to make it fracture in three different ways at Ocarina of Time to make it work.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--1fFdm3x---/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/18j0yyebco7eqjpg.jpg
 

SweetShark

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erttheking said:
SweetShark said:
The only Zelda game I played is Link to the Past and don't even finished it...
So my question is obvious one: The developers indeed said all Zelda games are connected or it is just a theory of fans?
There's an official timeline to the games, although apparently they had to make it fracture in three different ways at Ocarina of Time to make it work.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--1fFdm3x---/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/18j0yyebco7eqjpg.jpg
This is the official then.
So how the heck the developers decided is was wise to put three different timelines?
Why I have the feeling the developers just created this Timeline just to please the fans.
Except of course magicaly the new game is the results of the three timelines I see in the picture.
It is possible or I am telling bullsh*ts right now?
 

Erttheking

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SweetShark said:
Bit of both. There have been hints of games being connected before, Wind Waker had pictures of the Sages from Ocarina and talked about a previous Hero of Time and Twilight Princess had a mentor that was implied to a previous Link, but there was never much of an overarching plot between ALL games.

It's just the games have been all over the place, kind of like Mario, and unlike Metroid they weren't always set in the same "Universe." The only constant were Link Zelda and Ganon (And Ganon doesn't even show up sometimes, we've had other bosses like Nightmare, Majora and Vaati), the Triforce and Link's equipment.
 

Disco Biscuit

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erttheking said:
SweetShark said:
Bit of both. There have been hints of games being connected before, Wind Waker had pictures of the Sages from Ocarina and talked about a previous Hero of Time and Twilight Princess had a mentor that was implied to a previous Link, but there was never much of an overarching plot between ALL games.

It's just the games have been all over the place, kind of like Mario, and unlike Metroid they weren't always set in the same "Universe." The only constant were Link Zelda and Ganon (And Ganon doesn't even show up sometimes, we've had other bosses like Nightmare, Majora and Vaati), the Triforce and Link's equipment.
Or to put it another way, Zelda as a property is a mess of retconning and head-canon. To be accurate though, and to explain it the way Nintendo has (roughly) "They are a cast of players, and we're constantly casting them in new plays."
 

elvor0

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minkus_draconus said:
elvor0 said:
minkus_draconus said:
Drathnoxis said:
I notice not many people have interest in responding to Jim's video on violence.

I have a question for the people who want a gender swapped Link: do you want a full gender swap for all the main characters in the game (male Zelda, female Ganon, female Tingle, etc.) or simply a gender swap for Link alone?

I might be able to get behind a full gender swap as long as it's pulled off a bit better than that terrible Adventure Time episode. Just swapping Link doesn't really seem fair to me.
I'm for something in between. change genders where it works for the story/character. We have had all kind of fairies in the games so it doe snot matter what you do with them. I don't think the aspects of the triforce are tied to a gender so you can flip as many of them as you want any way. No reason Gannon(dorf) can't be a witch. No reason we cant have a prince with the triforce of wisdom. All the other characters are NPCs and offer a lot of variety anyway.
As a spin off or non cannon entry it would have to be, but you'd have to gender flip everyone for it to work, no half measures or picking and choosing. Ganon is always the same Ganon and thus has no room for being gender flipped on his own, unless you gender flip the Gerudo race to be one that is entirely male instead, as Ganon is King of the Gerudo by virtue of being the current man born once every 100 years. If you just gender flipped Ganon, someone else would have to have been king, and then Ganon would've been unlikely to have gotten hold of the triforce in the first place.

Zelda herself is a constant reincarnation of the goddess Hylia, thus fixing her sex quite solidly and potentially character to some extent.

I think at this point it's quite established that reincarnation in the Zelda universe is a lot less fluid than in other media or even the real world, as I think it's safe to assume that if characters get reincarnated as the same sex every time over many, many games, then that aspect doesn't change. Although Link is one character that can "somewhat" break the rules:

In the WW timeline the character you play as isn't actually part of the reincarnation cycle, and is instead tested in order to become The Hero and the take on the mantle of a /new/ cycle of reincarnation. Essentially if the reincarnation of Link is broken then there's room to do whatever you want so long as the character is courageous. Zelda I don't think has this wiggle room, being the literal reincarnation of a goddess.

So while Link is totally able to be switched under specific circumstances, I think it's /easier/ to just gender flip everyone and call it non canon, as a lonesome Female Link has quite large implications for which ever timeline she exists in. Or make it possible to choose Links gender (thus making it that all previous incarnations were female for that player).
Growing up with exposure to a lot of religions, gods and goddesses tend to play fast and loose with gender and reproduction.
But they're not the gods and goddesses of the Zelda Universe. So whatever those religions gods and goddesses get up to means nothing. You can't apply the mythology of those religions to the mythology of the game, unless they take direct influence or pantheonic details, which I don't /think/ Zelda does. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If Link and Zelda have been reincarnated almost 30 times as Male and Female, it shows that the Goddesses of the Zelda universe obviously /don't/ play fast and loose with sex and reproduction. Yeah okay that's purposefully been done by the designers because Link and Zelda are core tropes of the game, but that still doesn't mean the mythology of real world gods have relevance or prescient.

minkus_draconus said:
I take a much less gender fixed view of them. I think there is a lot about the culture, religion and environment we are raised with and how that forms our views on these things. Clearly this also informs our views of the various factors in this discussion.
I obviously don't mind if they are gender flipped, so I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here, I'm just explaining why it would have to be non canon if you gender flipped everyone, or that gender flipping just Link could be done but would need explaining at some point in the time line what happened the previous male reincarnation cycle. Or why Zelda or Ganondorf cannot be flipping on their own using in universe logic. Having the option to choose Links sex is an easy option though because you can easily reconcile it with the explanation all other incarnations of Link within that cycle are the same sex as the one you pick and requires no in universe explanation.

I'm not arguing /against/ gender flipping anyone, I'm explaining the situations in which they could work or make sense in universe.
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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Has link been male in every game? They almost always look androgynous, but I think they end up being called male in at least a few of the games.
 

Proto Taco

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*shrugs* Link's polygons were so androgynous on the N64 that whenever I played Ocarina or Majora I always just imagined Link was a butch out to save her Princess.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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From what I've been reading, Link functions similarly to the Avatar in that they are reborn every so often. So how about both doing the genderswap but have Link be a bit taken aback as to why this time a female form has been chosen. Treat it as a story hook.
 

Strazdas

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Well as a fan of Jim Sterling, i never saw any outrage regarding those videos. So im not sure what you are on about in the OP. I have skipped the violence one because i did assume what he was going to speak about, know i would disagree so i decided to just go on with my day and watch another youtuber instead. Thats about the extent of my "outrate" about that video though. Ill be back next week and continue watching his stuff because when he deals with actual gaming industry hes pretty good at it. Its just his political stuff that seems to be badly done.
 

Joccaren

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Kingjackl said:
Samtemdo8 said:
No one is calling for a female Mario, but in the past couple of years there has been interest in the idea of a female Doctor Who, or a black James Bond. That's because like Link, these are characters that are established as having multiple versions of them. The fact that they've always been white males is because that was the standard. But times are changing, people are starting to ask "well why not?" and the success of Star Wars and Fury Road shows that there's reasonable business sense in taking the plunge.
To be fair, Doctor Who has handled this very well, however. They didn't just see "Oh look we could do a female and pander to that audeince, lets make the Doctor a female Ginger this time! Its possible! Lets do it!".

They went with an old male - basically saying we ain't pandering to anyone, we're going back closer to our roots. Then, they began to show other Timelords gender flipping to properly introduce the idea to the lore. When we see the Master swap into Missy, it makes much more sense that the Doctor can change into a female, and should they choose to change the doctor to a female next series, there'll likely be less backlash than there originally would have been because they'd have done the setup work in the lore, and prepared the brand for the arrival of a female doctor. Had they thrown it in without any real discussion, or preparation in the series, you can bet some fans would be like "WTF? That's possible? How? Why? I mean I guess it was never said to be impossible, it was never said to be possible either. Damn pandering to these new age tumblr fangirls with their young male actors and now a female lead, this show's gone downhill". They understood that reaction, and took the exact opposite path; disappoint the young tumblr fangirls, show that you're trying to respect the franchise rather than just pander to a growing audience with young men and new content, but then start to pave the way for the show to update to the new times.

The same sort of thing ideally should be done with Zelda. Link, Zelda, and Ganon are just the reincarnations of 3 ancient spirits; one goddess, one demon, one hero. If one of them can change gender, the rest should be able to too. You could swap them all around and throw out some reason and have a game showing that this is now a thing that can happen, and the heroes, thanks to weird magic reasons explained in this game where everyone ended up gender bent because weird magic reasons, are able to choose their gender each incarnation. Zelda happens to always choose female, Ganon happens to always choose male, and Link is up to the player to choose.
In this way, you set up the series to introduce the idea of gender swapping in the future. You create a lore precedent and reason for it happening, and why it hasn't happened before. Next game when players can choose Link's gender, you can say "Oh, that's because of what happened in magical bullshittery game", rather than "Well... I guess it was never obliquely stated as impossible, even though the precedent implied otherwise".
It'd also destroy arguments of pandering if you swapped everyone. It just turns into a funny game with a quirky premise, and it could be seen equally as a joke shot against those saying Link has to be able to be female, or as the game creators actually saying yes now they can be female. And its equal in this game; No lets just change link to make the "SJWs" online more happy, but lets change everyone and make a fun game around that idea. Females are males, males are females, we have Gerudo who are exclusively male now, Zelda is Zelden, Ganon's witch mothers are her fathers. Familiar tropes - like the farming sisters - are farming brothers. Since everyone has changed its harder to pin it as some kind of affirmative action, which makes it harder for people to be upset at it doing so, while openning the way for future games to address the criticisms some have.

The current method people almost demand of "Make Link female next game"? Would just lead to resentment from a lot of people who don't really have a problem with Link being female as such, more with messing with an established character, as well as those who dislike the idea of him being female, as well as those who dislike the pandering to tumblr-teenage-girls that is perceived to be happening more, and a bunch of other groups besides. And Breath of the Wind was never going to be a game like that either. Its the first Zelda game on a console that hasn't sold according to expectations. They're going to try and piss off as few people as possible and turn it into a system seller.