SJW Jim Sterling says Link has to be female and that violent video games promote rape culture.

Saelune

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Samtemdo8 said:
Saelune said:
If people want a female protagonist in a Zelda game...why not Zelda? Id much rather a game where Link gets captured instead of Zelda for whatever reason, and Zelda has to be the hero, instead of making a female Link.

I would rather make new good female heroes then just genderbending male ones.
Exactly. It would be like Super Princess Peach.
Would certainly be interesting. Using a rapier instead of a broadsword, maybe learning new spells instead of finding items. Zelda has certainly been portrayed as capable many times, such as Windwaker and Ocarina of Time.
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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Saelune said:
If people want a female protagonist in a Zelda game...why not Zelda? Id much rather a game where Link gets captured instead of Zelda for whatever reason, and Zelda has to be the hero, instead of making a female Link.

I would rather make new good female heroes then just genderbending male ones.
My lobby is for gender neutral link. I mean they already look that way, so just take the plunge and make it official.
 

Saelune

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nomotog said:
Saelune said:
If people want a female protagonist in a Zelda game...why not Zelda? Id much rather a game where Link gets captured instead of Zelda for whatever reason, and Zelda has to be the hero, instead of making a female Link.

I would rather make new good female heroes then just genderbending male ones.
My lobby is for gender neutral link. I mean they already look that way, so just take the plunge and make it official.
Alright, heres my nerd theory.
So, each Link is a seemingly unrelated random incarnation. Zelda on the otherhand seems to be hereditary. I don't know if every first daughter is named Zelda, or if some random royal queen is like "I had a vison...Zelda", but it seems every Zelda is related. Ganon is the same guy every game. These are all facts. Now, for the theory, what if Link does infact get in on that Zelda booty? What if each Link throws his genetic two cents into the royal family line whenever he pops up? Kinda need him to be male then. Just a theory though, but whatever.

I still think its better to make new characters than modify established ones, even ones like Link who have a "different person" loophole that could accommodate such change.
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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Saelune said:
nomotog said:
Saelune said:
If people want a female protagonist in a Zelda game...why not Zelda? Id much rather a game where Link gets captured instead of Zelda for whatever reason, and Zelda has to be the hero, instead of making a female Link.

I would rather make new good female heroes then just genderbending male ones.
My lobby is for gender neutral link. I mean they already look that way, so just take the plunge and make it official.
Alright, heres my nerd theory.
So, each Link is a seemingly unrelated random incarnation. Zelda on the otherhand seems to be hereditary. I don't know if every first daughter is named Zelda, or if some random royal queen is like "I had a vison...Zelda", but it seems every Zelda is related. Ganon is the same guy every game. These are all facts. Now, for the theory, what if Link does infact get in on that Zelda booty? What if each Link throws his genetic two cents into the royal family line whenever he pops up? Kinda need him to be male then. Just a theory though, but whatever.

I still think its better to make new characters than modify established ones, even ones like Link who have a "different person" loophole that could accommodate such change.
Your theory... is nuts. It's also a mad reason to make link male.
 

Saelune

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nomotog said:
Saelune said:
nomotog said:
Saelune said:
If people want a female protagonist in a Zelda game...why not Zelda? Id much rather a game where Link gets captured instead of Zelda for whatever reason, and Zelda has to be the hero, instead of making a female Link.

I would rather make new good female heroes then just genderbending male ones.
My lobby is for gender neutral link. I mean they already look that way, so just take the plunge and make it official.
Alright, heres my nerd theory.
So, each Link is a seemingly unrelated random incarnation. Zelda on the otherhand seems to be hereditary. I don't know if every first daughter is named Zelda, or if some random royal queen is like "I had a vison...Zelda", but it seems every Zelda is related. Ganon is the same guy every game. These are all facts. Now, for the theory, what if Link does infact get in on that Zelda booty? What if each Link throws his genetic two cents into the royal family line whenever he pops up? Kinda need him to be male then. Just a theory though, but whatever.

I still think its better to make new characters than modify established ones, even ones like Link who have a "different person" loophole that could accommodate such change.
Your theory... is nuts. It's also a mad reason to make link male.
I said it was a theory didn't I? The Zelda timeline is nuts too after all. And I think the reasons to make Link a female are a bit nuts too.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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MysticSlayer said:
Whether Link is male or female is decided on the whim of the writers, and it can be changed at the whim of the writers.
Retconning is one of the cheapest things you can do as a writer. "All of that stuff from before? Doesn't count".
 

MysticSlayer

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Samtemdo8 said:
The thing is why are we having this discussion with Link of all people? Why Link?
Can you think of another human or human-like Nintendo protagonist who gets a semi-regular release schedule, is not a particularly well-defined character, and actually changes from game-to-game? Even if you could, none of them would even come close to the popularity of Link.

Besides, it's not even like Link is a name that exists beyond discussion. You can, and many people do, name him whatever they want. It's just that, if you give him a girl's name, it will mess with the writing (regarding pronouns). You could let us choose the gender, and all it would take is changing the model a little and replacing "he" with "she" throughout the writing.

I have never seen anyone asking for a female Mario. You know why because he is now firmly established as a male character.
Well, people have imagined Mario as a female:


Beyond that, a few reasons:

1. Mario (presumably) doesn't change from game to game. The Mario in Galaxy is the same one as the Mario in Sunshine. The Link in one game is very often clearly not the same as the Link in another.

2. Mario actually exists in his world as Mario. Link can exist in my world as Zelda, the young...boy?...that saves the princess of Hyrule who has the same name as...him? It's the legend of Zelda rescues Zelda!

3. No one cares about Mario's story. Many people do become attached to Zelda's story...the Zelda games, not the Zelda that rescues Zelda...

Link has now been imbedded in everyone's psyche as a male character, he is made to be male, he will remain male.
Only if Nintendo keeps him male. Otherwise, we'll be having the adventure of Link, the young farm girl that decides to take up a sword to rescue Hyrule.

Saelune said:
If people want a female protagonist in a Zelda game...why not Zelda? Id much rather a game where Link gets captured instead of Zelda for whatever reason, and Zelda has to be the hero, instead of making a female Link.
It was proposed like 3-4 years ago, and we had the same "damn those SJWs" discussion that we're having now over Link's gender.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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MysticSlayer said:
Samtemdo8 said:
The thing is why are we having this discussion with Link of all people? Why Link?
Can you think of another human or human-like Nintendo protagonist who gets a semi-regular release schedule, is not a particularly well-defined character, and actually changes from game-to-game? Even if you could, none of them would even come close to the popularity of Link.

Besides, it's not even like Link is a name that exists beyond discussion. You can, and many people do, name him whatever they want. It's just that, if you give him a girl's name, it will mess with the writing (regarding pronouns). You could let us choose the gender, and all it would take is changing the model a little and replacing "he" with "she" throughout the writing.

I have never seen anyone asking for a female Mario. You know why because he is now firmly established as a male character.
Well, people have imagined Mario as a female:


Beyond that, a few reasons:

1. Mario (presumably) doesn't change from game to game. The Mario in Galaxy is the same one as the Mario in Sunshine. The Link in one game is very often clearly not the same as the Link in another.

2. Mario actually exists in his world as Mario. Link can exist in my world as Zelda, the young...boy?...that saves the princess of Hyrule who has the same name as...him? It's the legend of Zelda rescues Zelda!

3. No one cares about Mario's story. Many people do become attached to Zelda's story...the Zelda games, not the Zelda that rescues Zelda...

Link has now been imbedded in everyone's psyche as a male character, he is made to be male, he will remain male.
Only if Nintendo keeps him male. Otherwise, we'll be having the adventure of Link, the young farm girl that decides to take up a sword to rescue Hyrule.

Saelune said:
If people want a female protagonist in a Zelda game...why not Zelda? Id much rather a game where Link gets captured instead of Zelda for whatever reason, and Zelda has to be the hero, instead of making a female Link.
It was proposed like 3-4 years ago, and we had the same "damn those SJWs" discussion that we're having now over Link's gender.
Did people had that discussion when they made Super Princess Peach?
 

Kingjackl

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Samtemdo8 said:
MysticSlayer said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Link is male. Case close.
He's male because someone in the 1980s decided to make him male. If someone decided to make Link female in a future game, then Link would be female in that game regardless of whether or not you say "Link is male. Case closed." It's not like Link is some real-life person who absolutely insists he's a male. Whether Link is male or female is decided on the whim of the writers, and it can be changed at the whim of the writers.
The thing is why are we having this discussion with Link of all people? Why Link?

I have never seen anyone asking for a female Mario. You know why because he is now firmly established as a male character.

Link has now been imbedded in everyone's psyche as a male character, he is made to be male, he will remain male.
There are two very good reasons we're having this discussion about Link and not Mario. One is because of the rumours last year when we saw the teaser and the art style made him look even more "feminine" than usual. Two, and most importantly is that while Mario is a single established character, there are multiple incarnations of Link, which means you could theoretically do it without retconning anything. Just say "this version of Link is female" and Bob's your aunt.

No one is calling for a female Mario, but in the past couple of years there has been interest in the idea of a female Doctor Who, or a black James Bond. That's because like Link, these are characters that are established as having multiple versions of them. The fact that they've always been white males is because that was the standard. But times are changing, people are starting to ask "well why not?" and the success of Star Wars and Fury Road shows that there's reasonable business sense in taking the plunge.
 

Saelune

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MysticSlayer said:
Saelune said:
If people want a female protagonist in a Zelda game...why not Zelda? Id much rather a game where Link gets captured instead of Zelda for whatever reason, and Zelda has to be the hero, instead of making a female Link.
It was proposed like 3-4 years ago, and we had the same "damn those SJWs" discussion that we're having now over Link's gender.
I think the discussion in this topic currently is pretty fair minded. I don't think everyone wanting a female Link is an SJW extremist. I'm sure some are just people who want to fantasies about Link and not feel weird about it, and some just don't care about character consistency like say, I do.
 

MysticSlayer

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Johnny Novgorod said:
MysticSlayer said:
Whether Link is male or female is decided on the whim of the writers, and it can be changed at the whim of the writers.
Retconning is one of the cheapest things you can do as a writer. "All of that stuff from before? Doesn't count".
Most Zelda games already start over with a new protagonist, new background, new Zelda, etc. and barely recognize the events of a previous one, provided they're recognized at all. It's not like Link magically got retconned while taking a break between Death Mountain and the Zora's Domain.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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MysticSlayer said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
MysticSlayer said:
Whether Link is male or female is decided on the whim of the writers, and it can be changed at the whim of the writers.
Retconning is one of the cheapest things you can do as a writer. "All of that stuff from before? Doesn't count".
Most Zelda games already start over with a new protagonist, new background, new Zelda, etc. and barely recognize the events of a previous one, provided they're recognized at all. It's not like Link magically got retconned while taking a break between Death Mountain and the Zora's Domain.
If there is no continuity (though there is between some entries) then why not just make a new character?
 

MysticSlayer

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Saelune said:
MysticSlayer said:
Saelune said:
If people want a female protagonist in a Zelda game...why not Zelda? Id much rather a game where Link gets captured instead of Zelda for whatever reason, and Zelda has to be the hero, instead of making a female Link.
It was proposed like 3-4 years ago, and we had the same "damn those SJWs" discussion that we're having now over Link's gender.
I think the discussion in this topic currently is pretty fair minded. I don't think everyone wanting a female Link is an SJW extremist. I'm sure some are just people who want to fantasies about Link and not feel weird about it, and some just don't care about character consistency like say, I do.
Sorry, I was talking "now" in the general sense, not necessarily this thread. I've found that often when this discussion gets brought up, people get angry about an "SJW agenda". Which, to be fair, many people do want Link to be female for diversity purposes, but that still doesn't stop the similarity between changing Link's gender and have the adventure of Zelda who saved Prince Link.

Personally, I'd be happy with a "choose your gender" option at the start of the game. We already choose Link's name at the start of many of the games, so it isn't like anything about male Link is that well-defined to begin with.
 

Fappy

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While clever, please try not to make misleading thread titles. It can cause more trouble than it's worth.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Kingjackl said:
Samtemdo8 said:
MysticSlayer said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Link is male. Case close.
He's male because someone in the 1980s decided to make him male. If someone decided to make Link female in a future game, then Link would be female in that game regardless of whether or not you say "Link is male. Case closed." It's not like Link is some real-life person who absolutely insists he's a male. Whether Link is male or female is decided on the whim of the writers, and it can be changed at the whim of the writers.
The thing is why are we having this discussion with Link of all people? Why Link?

I have never seen anyone asking for a female Mario. You know why because he is now firmly established as a male character.

Link has now been imbedded in everyone's psyche as a male character, he is made to be male, he will remain male.
There are two very good reasons we're having this discussion about Link and not Mario. One is because of the rumours last year when we saw the teaser and the art style made him look even more "feminine" than usual. Two, and most importantly is that while Mario is a single established character, there are multiple incarnations of Link, which means you could theoretically do it without retconning anything. Just say "this version of Link is female" and Bob's your aunt.

No one is calling for a female Mario, but in the past couple of years there has been interest in the idea of a female Doctor Who, or a black James Bond. That's because like Link, these are characters that are established as having multiple versions of them. The fact that they've always been white males is because that was the standard. But times are changing, people are starting to ask "well why not?" and the success of Star Wars and Fury Road shows that there's reasonable business sense in taking the plunge.
I question that because I am pretty certain Paper Mario is not the same as Mario in the Mario and Luigi RPG.

Also my issue with the idea of a black James Bond or a Female Link is that how can they present the concept of Link and Bond Female/Black without reducing to just being a preachy message about race and gender struggles? Because I dread that they say making Bond black has the risk of having a story about Black Bond going through the struggles that black people face with racism and all that and to that is just increadibly preachy and racist in itself because to me it implies all Black people's experiance is one of struggle and entropy.

I mean everyone hates those kinds of stories I mean it everyone hates the movie Crash because of it.
 

MysticSlayer

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Before I begin, sorry for mixing up how I respond.

Samtemdo8 said:
Did people had that discussion when they made Super Princess Peach?
Not to my knowledge. I do, however, remember some people criticizing how the game treated Peach.

Regardless, that doesn't mean the discussion about Zelda as the protagonist didn't happen.

Johnny Novgorod said:
If there is no continuity (though there is between some entries) then why not just make a new character?
Technically, we already get a new character in many of the games. It's just that he happens to look like the other ones. Whether or not his name is the same is up to the player. I don't see how changing the gender, whether or not it is something the player chooses, is any different.
 

Saelune

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MysticSlayer said:
Saelune said:
MysticSlayer said:
Saelune said:
If people want a female protagonist in a Zelda game...why not Zelda? Id much rather a game where Link gets captured instead of Zelda for whatever reason, and Zelda has to be the hero, instead of making a female Link.
It was proposed like 3-4 years ago, and we had the same "damn those SJWs" discussion that we're having now over Link's gender.
I think the discussion in this topic currently is pretty fair minded. I don't think everyone wanting a female Link is an SJW extremist. I'm sure some are just people who want to fantasies about Link and not feel weird about it, and some just don't care about character consistency like say, I do.
Sorry, I was talking "now" in the general sense, not necessarily this thread. I've found that often when this discussion gets brought up, people get angry about an "SJW agenda". Which, to be fair, many people do want Link to be female for diversity purposes, but that still doesn't stop the similarity between changing Link's gender and have the adventure of Zelda who saved Prince Link.

Personally, I'd be happy with a "choose your gender" option at the start of the game. We already choose Link's name at the start of many of the games, so it isn't like anything about male Link is that well-defined to begin with.
Well, that is also why I don't like SJW extremists either, cause it has made genuine discussion on such things more difficult. I guess a choose gender choice would be a decent middle ground, though I would always pick male, but I also always name him Link, since that's the canon for me. (My mom likes to make names like "my balls" though...) Though if Nintendo ever wants to make a non-Zelda adventure game with character creation, Id be up for that. I already love the freedom in Animal Crossing: New Leaf to be a male character but dress as a girl with a "female" hairstyle.
 

WeepingAngels

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Eric the Orange said:
chrissx2 said:
He has no problem with Link not being a girl. He just finds the explenation why Link can't be a girl quite stupid.


Eh, i just read the rest of your post >. <
hehe. yeah that's why I made the inflammatory title. Too try and get people to respond without reading the post. for double irony.
Are misleading titles against the rules?
 

anthony87

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MysticSlayer said:
Whether Link is male or female is decided on the whim of the writers, and it can be changed at the whim of the writers.
And it should be left to the whim of the writers, rather than the people writing articles, making videos and complaining on forums about it.
 

Saltyk

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Meh. I tend to agree with about 90% of what Jim says. I don't feel these videos were any different. While there are certainly people I disagree with more, some he may even like, I tend to find him reasonable in his arguments.

Saelune said:
If people want a female protagonist in a Zelda game...why not Zelda? Id much rather a game where Link gets captured instead of Zelda for whatever reason, and Zelda has to be the hero, instead of making a female Link.

I would rather make new good female heroes then just genderbending male ones.
There's an easy explanation for it, too. Ganon has learned from his own cycle of reincarnation (or whatever) that Link always stops him in the end. So, he opted to stop that by catching Link and Zelda at the same time. Zelda got away through luck and ends up learning to fight, fend for herself, and saves the day.

I think I just came up with a more original Zelda story than Nintendo ever has.