SJW Jim Sterling says Link has to be female and that violent video games promote rape culture.

Feb 26, 2014
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Whatever, the internet will always be the internet. Nothing the ignorant masses say surprise me anymore. I'm less interested in talking about the internet's inability to comprehend what they hear, or in the second video's case their inability to watch the first god damn 30 seconds before they rage, and more interested in the bullshit excuses for why there can't be a female link [It'd "mess with the balance of the Triforce".]. I'd respect them so much more if they just said, "We didn't make Link female because we didn't want to." There. No bullshit. Not saying anything at all would be better than what Aonuma said.

Street Halo said:
As for turning Link into a female, I can't really speak specifically on that with any kind of authority as I'm not a fan of Nintendo's IP's but I don't agree with retconning just for the sake of "muh diversity" when they could just as easily create a new female character and give people a choice to play as a male Link or the new female hero.
Instead of just gender bending Link they could make Zelda a playable character. I think the biggest problem is that they don't want to do it. Which is fine, I guess. They don't have to do it, after all.
 

JohnnyDelRay

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Eric the Orange said:
Silentpony said:
So...you're just kinda' baiting people?

That seems kinda'...pointless. And as someone who has been arguing with Jim Sterling on/off for almost a decade now, I never take anything he says seriously. And yes, I know he didn't actually say anything in the thread title.
No their is an actual topic of debate. It's "why do people post without reading (or watching) the content". The title is to get people to do just that to illustrate the point (and to laugh at them).
That reply is pretty much self-admission to said baiting, regardless of desired conversation....just sayin'.

Johnny Novgorod said:
MysticSlayer said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
MysticSlayer said:
Whether Link is male or female is decided on the whim of the writers, and it can be changed at the whim of the writers.
Retconning is one of the cheapest things you can do as a writer. "All of that stuff from before? Doesn't count".
Most Zelda games already start over with a new protagonist, new background, new Zelda, etc. and barely recognize the events of a previous one, provided they're recognized at all. It's not like Link magically got retconned while taking a break between Death Mountain and the Zora's Domain.
If there is no continuity (though there is between some entries) then why not just make a new character?
This is what I've always thought. If the lore has a character with traits, characteristics, principles, motives and so on you can't just template this over just anyone. It feels cheap and disrespectful to your own work. Plus it shows the character as very shallow. That's why I don't understand why people say "let's make Thor female, make Link female, make Spider-man black and gay" or whatever. They already have back stories, relationships etc that people are familiar with. If you really need another female character, just make another one? Especially when your universe is already so well established over generations like this. And like the other Johnny said, if there's no continuation, it's even easier to just make another character. You can still call it Zelda after all.
 

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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JohnnyDelRay said:
This is what I've always thought. If the lore has a character with traits, characteristics, principles, motives and so on you can't just template this over just anyone. It feels cheap and disrespectful to your own work. Plus it shows the character as very shallow. That's why I don't understand why people say "let's make Thor female, make Link female, make Spider-man black and gay" or whatever. They already have back stories, relationships etc that people are familiar with. If you really need another female character, just make another one? Especially when your universe is already so well established over generations like this. And like the other Johnny said, if there's no continuation, it's even easier to just make another character. You can still call it Zelda after all.
Fem!Thor is a new character. Black!Spider-Man is a new character. Those are really bad examples if you're trying to say that Fem!Link shouldn't be a thing.

So people can accept that reincarnation is a thing, but they can't accept that sometimes said reincarnation might result in gender-swapping?
 

JohnnyDelRay

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shrekfan246 said:
JohnnyDelRay said:
This is what I've always thought. If the lore has a character with traits, characteristics, principles, motives and so on you can't just template this over just anyone. It feels cheap and disrespectful to your own work. Plus it shows the character as very shallow. That's why I don't understand why people say "let's make Thor female, make Link female, make Spider-man black and gay" or whatever. They already have back stories, relationships etc that people are familiar with. If you really need another female character, just make another one? Especially when your universe is already so well established over generations like this. And like the other Johnny said, if there's no continuation, it's even easier to just make another character. You can still call it Zelda after all.
Fem!Thor is a new character. Black!Spider-Man is a new character. Those are really bad examples if you're trying to say that Fem!Link shouldn't be a thing.

So people can accept that reincarnation is a thing, but they can't accept that sometimes said reincarnation might result in gender-swapping?
Ok fair enough, can chalk that one up to my straight ignorance, they're poor examples in that case. I remember Spider Man 2099, he was set in a totally different time and setting and was his own character, and that's fine. What I was really getting at (as non-illustrated by my examples) is that you can't just switch character's genders and personal traits willy-nilly, without taking into account the character and surrounding as a whole. Which just goes to why I don't think Link should be female. I mean, if Peter Parker was suddenly a girl, then what about Mary, Gwen, Felicia etc. But I better be quiet now because I've only played about 2 Zelda games, read a comic on it and otherwise don't know all too much.
 

Street Halo

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Captain Marvelous said:
Instead of just gender bending Link they could make Zelda a playable character. I think the biggest problem is that they don't want to do it. Which is fine, I guess. They don't have to do it, after all.
You're right, it is their IP so it's ultimately up to them but the playable Zelda solution would be easy as pie to implement and would hopefully stop MOST of these arguments. An "everybody wins" solution really isn't that hard, there's no point in being stubborn about it. Of course the unreasonable will still find something to ***** about but fuck those guys, they can wallow in their misery whilst the rest of us keep having fun.
 

shrekfan246

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JohnnyDelRay said:
I've only played about 2 Zelda games, read a comic on it and otherwise don't know all too much.
For the record, as has been mentioned many times in this and pretty much every thread that discusses Link's gender, Link is generally a new character in each new game. There are exceptions, such as Ocarina of Time to Majora's Mask, and Wind Waker to Spirit Tracks/Phantom Hourglass, but Nintendo's official explanation was that Link is not the same Link from game to game.

EDIT: Also, they've turned Peter Parker into a girl before, too. Technically. [http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Jessica_Drew_(Earth-1610)]
 

WeepingAngels

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Street Halo said:
Captain Marvelous said:
Instead of just gender bending Link they could make Zelda a playable character. I think the biggest problem is that they don't want to do it. Which is fine, I guess. They don't have to do it, after all.
You're right, it is their IP so it's ultimately up to them but the playable Zelda solution would be easy as pie to implement and would hopefully stop MOST of these arguments. An "everybody wins" solution really isn't that hard, there's no point in being stubborn about it. Of course the unreasonable will still find something to ***** about but fuck those guys, they can wallow in their misery whilst the rest of us keep having fun.
How about fuck those guys right now, before Nintendo sacrifices the franchise to SJW's who wouldn't fuckin' buy it anyway?
 
Feb 26, 2014
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Street Halo said:
Captain Marvelous said:
Instead of just gender bending Link they could make Zelda a playable character. I think the biggest problem is that they don't want to do it. Which is fine, I guess. They don't have to do it, after all.
You're right, it is their IP so it's ultimately up to them but the playable Zelda solution would be easy as pie to implement and would hopefully stop MOST of these arguments. An "everybody wins" solution really isn't that hard, there's no point in being stubborn about it. Of course the unreasonable will still find something to ***** about but fuck those guys, they can wallow in their misery whilst the rest of us keep having fun.
Oh, but a playable Zelda wont work because, and I quote, "...if we have princess Zelda as the main character who fights, then what is Link going to do?" So, the fans would win if Zelda were made playable, but Nintendo isn't creative enough to make it happen. It sounds easy, but I guess making Zelda playable, or gender swapping Link or both of them, is just far too difficult for them. Either that or they really don't want to make a Zelda or Linkara game.
 

MysticSlayer

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JohnnyDelRay said:
This is what I've always thought. If the lore has a character with traits, characteristics, principles, motives and so on you can't just template this over just anyone. It feels cheap and disrespectful to your own work.
I think you're adding a lot to Link to imply he isn't already a template that gets mostly re-written with a minimal backstory and motivation in each new game.
 

JohnnyDelRay

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shrekfan246 said:
JohnnyDelRay said:
I've only played about 2 Zelda games, read a comic on it and otherwise don't know all too much.
For the record, as has been mentioned many times in this and pretty much every thread that discusses Link's gender, Link is generally a new character in each new game. There are exceptions, such as Ocarina of Time to Majora's Mask, and Wind Waker to Spirit Tracks/Phantom Hourglass, but Nintendo's official explanation was that Link is not the same Link from game to game.

EDIT: Also, they've turned Peter Parker into a girl before, too. Technically. [http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Jessica_Drew_(Earth-1610)]
Yes, I was aware of that, and I'm not going to disagree with someone better informed than me. This is just my opinion, that as much as I've known of Link, and identified with him over the course of nearly 30 years, he's always looked (nearly) the same, and been a lad. Only thing I remember changing is his age.

That doesn't mean to say he can't go through evolutions like all characters do, I'm just saying that it would be a bit weird, for me. I can't imagine Mario a girl either, or Chun Li as a guy, for that matter. And each of them have about as much backstory or dialogue as Link in each game.
 

Vausch

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Samtemdo8 said:
MysticSlayer said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Link is male. Case close.
He's male because someone in the 1980s decided to make him male. If someone decided to make Link female in a future game, then Link would be female in that game regardless of whether or not you say "Link is male. Case closed." It's not like Link is some real-life person who absolutely insists he's a male. Whether Link is male or female is decided on the whim of the writers, and it can be changed at the whim of the writers.
The thing is why are we having this discussion with Link of all people? Why Link?

I have never seen anyone asking for a female Mario. You know why because he is now firmly established as a male character.

Link has now been imbedded in everyone's psyche as a male character, he is made to be male, he will remain male.
The difference between Mario and Link is that Link is not one character. In most games you're looking at a completely different person often with a different life. The Hero of Time Ocarina of Time is not the Legendary Hero of Link to the Past. Same with Zelda. They're reincarnations, each generation being someone new. Link is simply the one who is born with the triforce of courage. All you have to do is make it so a female character along the lines is born as the reincarnate with the triforce of courage, then if you want to keep the ratio of 2 men to a woman you can turn Zelda's reincarnation into a man, make him the prince of Hyrule, and have him be the one imbued with the triforce of wisdom. Simple as that.

I don't care about Link's gender. The reasons that were given as to WHY he can't be female were idiotic.
 

JohnnyDelRay

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MysticSlayer said:
JohnnyDelRay said:
This is what I've always thought. If the lore has a character with traits, characteristics, principles, motives and so on you can't just template this over just anyone. It feels cheap and disrespectful to your own work.
I think you're adding a lot to Link to imply he isn't already a template that gets mostly re-written with a minimal backstory and motivation in each new game.
Yea sorry that part of my post wasn't actually in reference to Link. It was more in response to Johnny's statement about retconning. I agreed at the end with the part that if there's very little continuation, backstory and whatnot, it would be much easier to just make another character altogether within the same franchise/lore.
 

Street Halo

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WeepingAngels said:
How about fuck those guys right now, before Nintendo sacrifices the franchise to SJW's who wouldn't fuckin' buy it anyway?
Already stated I wasn't a fan of any gender bending but creating a female hero or as suggested by Captain Marvelous, making Zelda a playable character shouldn't really upset anyone but the unreasonable. There's an easily obtainable middle ground here but very few want to hear it.
 

Kajin

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I dunno about you guys, but I'd personally enjoy it if Link were a set of fraternal twins. One boy, one girl. They share the Triforce of Courage and go on adventures together. That'd be fun. Maybe if you HAD to pick one character to stick with, you could choose which one to start with. They get to be the hero and the other gets kidnapped or something to get them out of the way.

This way Link still gets to be a dude to appease the weirdos that can't tolerate change and we get an entirely new character to play around with and shamelessly exploit to sell merchandise.

I mean I wouldn't mind it if Link was a guy or a girl. Link is a different person each story and there's literally nothing saying he needs to be a guy each and every time apart from tradition. Ganon is always the same guy and Zelda has her own story reasons for why she's a girl, so they can't change, but from what I understand Link is little more than the physical embodiment of what it takes to be a hero. That could be anyone. Or anything. Case in point the twin idea up above.
 

shrekfan246

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JohnnyDelRay said:
over the course of nearly 30 years, he's always looked (nearly) the same, and been a lad. Only thing I remember changing is his age.
Yes, and this is exactly why people would be excited to have something new for once. After thirty years and a ham-handed attempt at explaining the timeline of the Zelda franchise that winded up tying in a poorly-thought reincarnation plot to explain why Zelda, Ganon, and Link are always the same even though the world is completely different, the best answer they can come up with for not having Zelda be playable is "what would Link do?" and the best answer they can give for "why can't Link be a woman?" is "it would throw off the balance of the Triforce!" (Because everyone knows a woman can't be courageous.)

Wind Waker even directly references the Link of Ocarina of Time as a legend in its backstory, and gives him as the reason for why you dress up in the classic green tunic and hat. EDIT: And Zelda and Ganon don't even star in every game, either.

Also, there are three different "official" timelines for the Zelda franchise anyway, all based around various outcomes in Ocarina of Time. So apparently not only can Link never reincarnate as a lady, that extends across three different universes?
 

Street Halo

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Captain Marvelous said:
Oh, but a playable Zelda wont work because, and I quote, "...if we have princess Zelda as the main character who fights, then what is Link going to do?" So, the fans would win if Zelda were made playable, but Nintendo isn't creative enough to make it happen. It sounds easy, but I guess making Zelda playable, or gender swapping Link or both of them, is just far too difficult for them. Either that or they really don't want to make a Zelda or Linkara game.
Alright, so they won't bend on Zelda being the perpetual kidnap victim (seriously why couldn't both Link and Zelda team up and rescue someone else?) but there's nothing stopping them from adding a female hero. I hear they're giving Link a voice this time around so adding a female lead would mean hiring a voice actress........damnit we're expecting too much aren't we?
 

Something Amyss

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Eric the Orange said:
So apparently some people saw the titles of some of jims latest videos and just assumed that because apparently Jim is a "confirmed SJW" that they didn't even have to watch the video before assuming what he would say and yelling at him about how he is wrong.
(the thread title is sarcasm if that wasn't clear)
This has been basically every "SJW" argument for years. I'm not sure why it's even surprising at this point.

Though you did hook me with the title. I was curious as to where this would go.
 

JohnnyDelRay

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shrekfan246 said:
JohnnyDelRay said:
over the course of nearly 30 years, he's always looked (nearly) the same, and been a lad. Only thing I remember changing is his age.
Yes, and this is exactly why people would be excited to have something new for once. After thirty years and a ham-handed attempt at explaining the timeline of the Zelda franchise that winded up tying in a poorly-thought reincarnation plot to explain why Zelda, Ganon, and Link are always the same even though the world is completely different, the best answer they can come up with for not having Zelda be playable is "what would Link do?" and the best answer they can give for "why can't Link be a woman?" is "it would throw off the balance of the Triforce!" (Because everyone knows a woman can't be courageous.)

Wind Waker even directly references the Link of Ocarina of Time as a legend in its backstory, and gives him as the reason for why you dress up in the classic green tunic and hat.

Also, there are three different "official" timelines for the Zelda franchise anyway, all based around various outcomes in Ocarina of Time. So apparently not only can Link never reincarnate as a lady, that extends across three different universes?
Alright well color me enlightened, if they are really that diverse from each other, then it would make sense. Much like the Spider Man 2099 case. My only argument (well maybe not argument, but explanation on my side) then would be why didn't they do something more different with the character sooner, so as to establish those different universes/timelines a little better. Even something subtle, and I don't mean slight age gap or left-right handedness. From someone more on the outside looking in, it just seems like the same old Link since ever.

That throwing off the balance of the Triforce excuse made me laugh though, surely they could've come up with something better than that. From what little I remember, it can be used by anyone (inc. a princess at one point?) as long as they don't get corrupted by any of the parts.
 

Lunar Templar

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what do you expect?

'people' are in generally to stupid and knee jerk prone to take the time to actually confirm if what they think is being said is really being said.
 

shrekfan246

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JohnnyDelRay said:
shrekfan246 said:
JohnnyDelRay said:
over the course of nearly 30 years, he's always looked (nearly) the same, and been a lad. Only thing I remember changing is his age.
Yes, and this is exactly why people would be excited to have something new for once. After thirty years and a ham-handed attempt at explaining the timeline of the Zelda franchise that winded up tying in a poorly-thought reincarnation plot to explain why Zelda, Ganon, and Link are always the same even though the world is completely different, the best answer they can come up with for not having Zelda be playable is "what would Link do?" and the best answer they can give for "why can't Link be a woman?" is "it would throw off the balance of the Triforce!" (Because everyone knows a woman can't be courageous.)

Wind Waker even directly references the Link of Ocarina of Time as a legend in its backstory, and gives him as the reason for why you dress up in the classic green tunic and hat.

Also, there are three different "official" timelines for the Zelda franchise anyway, all based around various outcomes in Ocarina of Time. So apparently not only can Link never reincarnate as a lady, that extends across three different universes?
Alright well color me enlightened, if they are really that diverse from each other, then it would make sense. Much like the Spider Man 2099 case. My only argument (well maybe not argument, but explanation on my side) then would be why didn't they do something more different with the character sooner, so as to establish those different universes/timelines a little better. Even something subtle, and I don't mean slight age gap or left-right handedness. From someone more on the outside looking in, it just seems like the same old Link since ever.
That's a very good question, and I think it'd be interesting (if potentially a tad sad) to find out Nintendo's answer to that.

Honestly, I really just don't think they'd started thinking it through that much until about a decade ago, if I were to guess. I could be wrong, because there are some particularly older Zelda games I haven't played or seen, but I'm pretty sure that until Wind Waker came out, none of the titles were really directly tied together (again with the exception of Ocarina of Time to Majora's Mask). Wind Waker established that its world was the same world as Ocarina of Time, but hundreds of years after the fact. And then Skyward Sword came out and introduced the whole "reincarnation of the Gods and Goddesses Champions" thing.

There were plenty of fan theories, to be sure, but I don't think Nintendo was really scrambling for any explanations until they realized that they'd strung together all of these wildly different time frames in a very haphazard way.

That throwing off the balance of the Triforce excuse made me laugh though, surely they could've come up with something better than that. From what little I remember, it can be used by anyone (inc. a princess at one point?) as long as they don't get corrupted by any of the parts.
That's kind of a funny bit, too, yeah. The Triforce has been shown and officially described as not discriminating against whoever holds it; that's why Ganon can wield its power in the first place. You have to assemble a piece of it in two different games (the original game because Zelda shattered hers, and Wind Waker because Link's piece shattered when he left Hyrule for the events of Majora's Mask), and it's forcibly taken from Zelda in multiple games.