Smile and Nod: I, John Marston

Argonnosi

New member
Jul 23, 2010
11
0
0
Couldn't disagree more with this article. The only thing, in fact, that you got right about this game (other than the base description of the events) is that it is not an RPG. Now listen close, 'cause this is important. RPGs aren't about stat advancement, they're about the ability to make choices that define and alter your character, the story, and the world around you. Mind, by that definition the FF games aren't RPGs, but they aren't, so I'm okay with that.

I've been table-top role-playing for some 12 years now, and as I am able to get more consistent access to my preferred hobby and gaming style, the more I have come to despise these games that claim to be an RPG or have RPG elements. The only element that actually matters is choice! All we get with the FF, GTA, and RDR is a chance to watch a movie with some game-play elements thrown in to make sure that you are still paying attention.

Now that I'm done with that little rant: 1) You can't stand around on a moving train and shoot stuff, and 2) if a posse is gathered to run you down, you're not going to jail to spend time, you're going to be lynched, shot down, or taken to a jail where, later, you will be hung right and proper. Very much game over. So, you want to talk about suspension of disbelief being broken, just as much will be broken here as in GTA4. More, in fact, because the world, otherwise, does feel very "real," so every time something that just shouldn't happen does, it becomes all the more jarring.

Also, Zero Punctuation is right. This is a bad game. In fact, all of the GTA games tend to be, but this one even more so. As a game, RDR is actually two games. First and foremost, you have the missions and the story, which has a very distinctive tone and characterization. Then you have the free-roaming game, where you can go anywhere, do anything, and kill anybody (so long as it isn't anything that will alter the story, 'cause your not allowed to do that).

The problem with this is that what you do in free-roam often is completely at odds with what you do in the missions, especially if any sense of tension is being created by the plot, and then you go off and kill buffalos for three hours. And, time just stands still? Mind, this, and similar complaints, aren't just aimed at RDR individually. They are a problem that is endemic to most games that attempt to create a "non-linear" or "open" world. A game where you are stuck on the rails, going from level 1 to level x, where you beat the final boss, may not have the openness of the other games, but it doesn't have any pretense to options that don't exist, and it does have the advantage of consistency.
 

KEM10

New member
Oct 22, 2008
725
0
0
Yvl9921 said:
KEM10 said:
I enjoyed the GTA IV tie in, they are narratives that are set in stone and you can only tweak them. The problem with your definition of "Role Playing" (or the industry's) is that because they have a designed beginning and end with certain chapters in between that you must hit, all of the Final Fantasy games are not role playing games.

To be completely honest, the only true role playing game would be The Sims since you can go on your adventure into the world and save the girl while killing the bad guy, or you could paint a picture instead and head off to work tomorrow.
That's the problem with Russ' definition - he's defining simulators, not RPGs. RPGs have always required stats and stat growth, usually in the form of level ups. It's not a complicated definition, people just get thrown off because they've apparently never heard of Dungeons and Dragons, or haven't connected it to the genre of today.
I actually enjoy the new idea. I have played a few (read way too many) tabletops and the main thing I enjoyed about them was the ability to shape your character to your liking and make her unique. Bioware does a great job with this, but my Cloud and your Cloud will be the exact same except for, maybe, some different abilities or equipment.
 

carpathic

New member
Oct 5, 2009
1,287
0
0
I sometimes wonder if it is the freedom that is so attractive in Sandbox games. I mean, in the west we live in repressive societies. Safe, but oppressive, and I sometimes think that we long for the freedom offered by these games.
 

Grahfb

New member
Jan 26, 2010
1
0
0
Am I the only one that thought the ending to RDR left a lot to be desired? Here I am, having played the entire game as John Marston, an awesome bad ass, then I'm forced into the role of his incredibly annoying son, who takes revenge for his father by shooting an old man in the face. An old man who has already lived out his life, for all intents and purposes, and probably would have died in a month anyway. I don't consider that a very satisfying ending to the story at all.
 

mjc0961

YOU'RE a pie chart.
Nov 30, 2009
3,847
0
0
Very good read, and I really have to agree. John was a pretty good character in a pretty good game. Like many others commenting, I tried to be as noble as possible as well: there was one part where I spend so long messing around trying to get my lasso to work so I could hogtie and capture a guy, that an NPC I was with ended up shooting that guy just as I realized the game was forcing me to execute him and was beginning to draw my pistol.

However, all that about how great John is really makes the part after the story a bit disappointing for me.
Jack is pretty much a blank slate. I guess that is a bit of a help with the whole deal about John's character, and being able to run off and go after whatever you still need to do (such as the hogtying a woman and leaving her to be run over by a train) without worrying about John, but for me... I just don't give a shit about Jack.

Or maybe I'm just annoyed with his somewhat grating voice and stupid phrases. Stop yelling at the horse to "work ya damn nag" every minute, and nobody cares that your pa knew Landon Rickets.

But again, very nice read. It made me appreciate the way the game ends a bit more.
 

Kilgorn

New member
Jul 1, 2009
92
0
0
This article is exactly what i was thinking the entire time i played the game, that it was so immersive because it was believable, thanks to the setting. The story was so well told that you wanted to add your personal decisions to John Marston's profile, and perhaps take away some of John's personality for your own profile in real life.

Also, I got 100% because I had to continue John's legacy with Jack.
 

TheBluesader

New member
Mar 9, 2008
1,003
0
0
Russ Pitts said:
Smile and Nod: I, John Marston

A profound RPG experience isn't just possible in Red Dead Redemption, it's unavoidable.

Read Full Article
I think an important thing to keep in mind about RDR is how often you can die. Especially after you do terrible, terrible things. Sure, your stats remain unchanged by your death. But when you die, you respawn at the last save point - many times BEFORE you did the terrible things you did to get achievements or just to have some nasty fun. While this is a standard aspect of games, it also has an interesting impact on the story. Sure, John kidnapped a woman, let a train explode her, and then killed half a dozen people trying to get away with it. But then he got killed.

But oh wait, no he didn't! Because suddenly he's back to the point BEFORE he acted like a sociopath. Now you can certainly go back and do the same terrible things again, and avoid getting killed. But why would you? You've already gone through that. It doesn't matter that John himself no longer has those memories. Only you do, and they're your problem.

This almost makes the game an "all possible worlds" simulator. You can go out and see what will happen if John is terrible. But then you can get John killed, he goes back in time a few minutes, and now he's not terrible again.

I guess this doesn't do anything for people who think the narrative and gameplay are morally inconsistent. But if you pay attention only to the "real" John - the John as he keeps respawning - both aspects can be completely consistent.

As long as you don't make John a terrible person and survive it, at any rate.
 

Nostalgia Ripoff

New member
Sep 2, 2009
521
0
0
When I played RDR, I had John be a noble man who shot to kill only when he had to. Even in duels I just aimed for the opponents shooting hand. And when he died, it had an impact. I did all that work for that bastard, Edgar Ross, and he took it all away. It made it much more satisfying when
Jack shot Ross. I also had him so pissed that he killed his family too. I mean, Ross took his family, he's out for revenge. Granted, it didn't impact the end of that side quest, but it helped portray the Jack I wanted.
After John died I tried to make Jack out as a psychotic, driven towards crime because of his parents' death. After all, Jack is a different person from John.
 

Wickedaffix

New member
Sep 14, 2008
9
0
0
Yvl9921 said:
That's the problem with Russ' definition - he's defining simulators, not RPGs. RPGs have always required stats and stat growth, usually in the form of level ups. It's not a complicated definition, people just get thrown off because they've apparently never heard of Dungeons and Dragons, or haven't connected it to the genre of today.
It's really hard to argue Simulators vs RPGs.

I really don't believe RPGs are based around stat growth, even if you went as far as pen and paper rpg. Your experience playing the game doesn't revolve around how hard your mace die roll is nor any form of RPG imo but around the character itself.

And I believe that's his interpretation as well, And as such I agree with him. The Game was more linear then most Free-roam or modern RPGs(i.e Mass Effect) leaving less of an option of personal character development. Which made the "role playing" experience more defined if you will. Compared to Mass Effect that allowed much more personalization I just felt like I was playing a story as I made it up, well as playing RDR I had a defined character with clear characteristics, goals, ideology. So I felt much more in character the way I played it.

but of course, each his own
 

wulfy42

New member
Jan 29, 2009
771
0
0
First I want to say that the article was excellently written and enjoyable to read.

I'm a bit conflicted by RDR though and don't totally agree with many of Russ's points. I didn't feel a sense of realism at all throughout many parts of the game. I for instance decided to go crazy early on and shoot the heck out of tons of people, grabbing money as they came to collect my bounty etc. I had a blast killing em heh but the cost to get rid of my bounty was insane. I did a mission though and as part of it I got a free pass that cleared my name *poof* like that.

That just didn't seem realistic to me. I mean I killed tons of people with plenty of witnesses, robbed banks, shot tons of law enforcement and suddenly nobody is after me anymore because of a pardon? If that happened in the old west I'm sure there would still be plenty of people waiting to shoot you in the back pardon or not.

Then there was game mechanic issues. Riding a horse into a river = instant death. Yes, the horse won't let your run off a cliff, but it's happy to jump right into a river and drown when leaving town!! Sadly when it was night and raining I could not always see where the river/bridge was and that happened more then once while chasing someone.

I think what Russ is describing is a story that really pulled him in, but that isn't really a roleplaying experience. The game does a good job of making you feel like you are John and making you identify with him (to a point) but it does not really like you DEFINE him. Russ mentioned you could add flair, shoot birds etc. Thats all true but none of it impacted the events of the game. You could control your fame etc...which is probably the largest roleplaying part of the game. Sadly you could not upgrade equipment much and there was little to no change in how the character played through the game no matter what you did.

Finally while it's understandable the combat was just super unrealistic. Take the river ride to Mexico.....I mean there is no freaking way that would ever play out that way lol. John kills thousands like Russ says but honestly it's even more unrealistic then GTA in my opinion.

Some of the equipment like the bandana etc let you mitigate the penalty you get from actions you commit and other things allowed you to manipulate the system and get away with just about anything you wanted. As a sandbox game I think RDR was fairly sucessful. I think the story was superior to most other sandbox games but that only really works once. Multiplayer is enjoyable but has its flaws. I think it's worth owning, and a decent over all game, but it is not one of my favorites or even probably in my top 100 games list at this point. I'm glad Russ enjoyed it and I envy his great writing style, but I think it is just a semi-decent sandbox game with a above average story.
 

DJDarque

Words
Aug 24, 2009
1,776
0
0
subtlefuge said:
Yvl9921 said:
KEM10 said:
I enjoyed the GTA IV tie in, they are narratives that are set in stone and you can only tweak them. The problem with your definition of "Role Playing" (or the industry's) is that because they have a designed beginning and end with certain chapters in between that you must hit, all of the Final Fantasy games are not role playing games.

To be completely honest, the only true role playing game would be The Sims since you can go on your adventure into the world and save the girl while killing the bad guy, or you could paint a picture instead and head off to work tomorrow.
That's the problem with Russ' definition - he's defining simulators, not RPGs. RPGs have always required stats and stat growth, usually in the form of level ups. It's not a complicated definition, people just get thrown off because they've apparently never heard of Dungeons and Dragons, or haven't connected it to the genre of today.
Your own definition is also only half true. If RPGs required stat growth, then Legend of Zelda would not be considered an RPG. While you may personally believe that, you would have a hard time convincing very many people.
Personally, I think the "definitions" of an RPG and a simulator are kind of backwards. An RPG always requiring stats to me sounds more like a simulator. I mean with that you're basically comparing one set of stats to another and seeing which one comes out on top; pinning numbers against numbers, that's what simulators do. Compare one set of data to other sets of similar data to determine the most likely outcomes.

Also, I think the definition of a RPG involves literally what the name itself implies: role-playing. You are stepping into this characters shoes and playing their role in the game's story. I think any game that has you playing as someone you are not and has you doing things you wouldn't normally be able to do, or ever be able to do, could on some level be considered a role-playing game.

I'm not saying the two have to be mutually exclusive and in the majority of the cases they aren't. Almost all of what people would consider to be a RPG also include elements of simulation, just as some simulators include elements of role-playing. RDR may be considered a sand-box or an open world game, but if the people who played it felt like they were a part of this character (myself included), then by all means it is also an RPG.

You might not agree with me, but I just thought I'd put my two cents in on the matter. I also thought RDR was a very profound experience.

Squaseghost said:
I shed a multitude of manly tears through all of the end sequences of RDR.
Agreed.
 

The_ModeRazor

New member
Jul 29, 2009
2,837
0
0
Nice article.
I just wish they released the game on the PC :( .
Let's hope they'll port it... and better than GTA IV (same engine, they probably learnt from last time).
 

Corpse XxX

New member
Jan 19, 2009
1,635
0
0
Generic_Dave said:
I have to wholehearted agree. As a role to play, Marston was one of the first characters that guided my actions, rather that the game guiding my actions. I constantly found myself trying my best to do what that dang cowboy would do.

I found myself grudgingly fighting for the Mexican army, even though I despised them. And I found Liza's story-line heartbreaking and was deeply affected by how it ended. I would say it was the first time I genuinely cared about a character's life. For me, NPCs are normally just targets.

It kind of forces you to play a role in an extremely subversive manner. Even little things like the character fobbing off the hookers because he has a wife at home. The nobility and determination of the character drags you into his role, while very much glossing over the fact that you can only play the pre-defined role. The bars are there, they are just well hidden.

When compared to something like [Prototype] that encouraged you to kill anything that moves, innocent or otherwise (those weapons were NOT designed with an eye to reducing collateral damage) but then tries to paint its character as a noble and torn wronged man.

Of all the games I've play I'd think only Bioshock was as engrossing and immersive an experience.
Well said, i wholeheartedly agree..

I was really sad when John died at the end, why did the stupid flocker have to run out of the barn into a hail of bulletts?? What was he thinking? I could have easily killed them in normal matters if he had decided to stay in the barn..

Was real annoying to play as his son afterwards, Jack, with his puny little voice.. You cant be gangstah when sounding like that..
It kinda made me not want to play the game after this cause it was not the character i had come to know and care bout..
 
Mar 30, 2010
3,785
0
0
Very good article, highlighting exactly why I like Red Dead Redemption. On my playthrough of it, my John Marston was as noble as the day is long, who never succumbed to the life he had left behind. But my Jack Marston is everything his father didn't want him to be, an out of control maniac, a rabid cur the law has yet to put down. In a bizarre sense, this makes the ending of the game even more poignant, as all of my John's hard work and self-restraint is completely (and tragically) undone by a now vengeful and hate-filled son. My John's legacy to the world is exactly the legacy he fought for so long to avoid, and I can't help but think that's the way it should be.
 

Jaqen Hghar

New member
Feb 11, 2009
630
0
0
The only thing I disagree with this article, is what is written about his family. I felt that John and Jack had a good relationship. A more real father-son relationship than what I have seen in other games. John and Abigail also loved each other, quite clearly. Which made it all so much sadder at the end. This is the best game I have played in a long long time, and I don't think any game have stirred such emotions. I feel sorry for those who do not play it, because they are missing out on a classic on par with the good old western movies.
 

Celtic_Kerr

New member
May 21, 2010
2,166
0
0
Amazing article. Very deep, profound, and indepth in many different ways. The ending actually broke my heart a little bit to watch. I played the game twice, once as an absolute saint, where I never shot and killed a civilian or did anything wrong, and the other time when I had gotten the $500,000 bounty almost right off the bat.

They both simply felt natural, and on the second playthrough, I dreaded finishing because I knew the end of the game was coming, along with the inevitable tragedy.