So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.

SinisterDeath

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MrGalactus said:
So yeah,
http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column-post/will-chronicle-star-michael-b-jordan-be-human-torch-fantastic-four-88881
Michael B Jordan is considering being The Human Torch in the Fantastic Four reboot. Frankly, I think there's no problem here at all. A role, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to do with the look of the character, but how well the actor can capture or interpret the character, but the comic book community is complaining all over the internet. Seriously, check the comments. It's not good stuff.

What does the Escapist make of this? Do you guys care about the race of a character in an adaptation?
To me, this depends on.. how much are they going to retcon everything? Johny Storm is Susan Storm's Brother... ergo, if he is black, thus she should be to. If they show her in it, as a white girl, than... how are they going to play the brother/sister thing? (pretty sure in the comics, they had the same parents to...)

That said.

What would people think, if they Rebooted the movie Shaft, with a white man playing shaft?
Or a Chinese guy, playing Al'Capone in a Mobster movie?
 

Somnambulistic

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SinisterDeath said:
MrGalactus said:
So yeah,
http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column-post/will-chronicle-star-michael-b-jordan-be-human-torch-fantastic-four-88881
Michael B Jordan is considering being The Human Torch in the Fantastic Four reboot. Frankly, I think there's no problem here at all. A role, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to do with the look of the character, but how well the actor can capture or interpret the character, but the comic book community is complaining all over the internet. Seriously, check the comments. It's not good stuff.

What does the Escapist make of this? Do you guys care about the race of a character in an adaptation?
To me, this depends on.. how much are they going to retcon everything? Johny Storm is Susan Storm's Brother... ergo, if he is black, thus she should be to. If they show her in it, as a white girl, than... how are they going to play the brother/sister thing? (pretty sure in the comics, they had the same parents to...)

That said.

What would people think, if they Rebooted the movie Shaft, with a white man playing shaft?
Or a Chinese guy, playing Al'Capone in a Mobster movie?
I think a point that's being missed is that a lot of these characters that are being turned black are from comics that originated in a time where there weren't many black people in media. There still aren't many. See Moviebob's vids "Skin Deep" etc.

I don't agree with the examples of Shaft or Al Capone at all just because they are of a specific race or time period/culture that's actually really important to their characters.

Shaft, is a black detective. He's all about blaxploitation and if you take that away he's got no point. Unless you wanted to make the the rest of Shaft's world black and have Shaft be a white guy. Then maybe that would work. But otherwise, not really.

Al Capone is all about his time period and was born to Italian immigrants. Change his race and you'll have to change how he grew up, how people treated him when he walked down the street or even when he tried to get a drink. It wouldn't make sense.

I think people miss the point a lot about some characters and why they are what they are. In comics this is more true than anywhere else. White is the default, and it's not a bad thing, but when someone is a different race it's usually for a reason to give them different values, a different look or culture or upbringing, etc. Their different race is usually a selling point for the character.

With a white character, it's usually everything else that's the selling point. Hawkeye, isn't necessarily limited by his race unless of course you specify that he's Irish, same with many of the X-men, Hawkman/Woman, or even the Flash (though he is iconic as a white guy).

Characters that would have a harder time turning into another race believably would be the larger mainstays, like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, whose back stories are pretty concrete which kind of effects how well it can be pulled off if you change their skin color, imo.

Sure you can turn Supes' black, but how would you do it and do it well?

ETA and OT: It wouldn't bother me if Johnny was black. If they wanted to they could make him Adopted. Them being blood siblings wasn't really a big point was it? Part of the fun of changes is enjoying the new stuff that comes with it.
 

2012 Wont Happen

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I don't have any problem with a black member of the Fantastic Four, or really any problem with that member being Johnny Storm. It just wouldn't be the best character to make black from a logical perspective.

Johnny Storm is a rash and generally pretty violent character who fits all too well into the stereotypes racists apply to black people. In addition, he has a sister in the group. Granted, they could also cast a black actress as his sister or explain that one had been adopted to get around that, but if they don't do one of those things it wouldn't make sense.

It would make more sense to cast a black actor as Reed Richards. From a standpoint of re-envisioning comics written in a more racist time, it would make more sense as Richards is a highly intellectual character. From a standpoint of plot consistency, as the majority of big name actors and actresses in Hollywood are white, it would be easier to cast a black man in the role of Richards.

All of that being said, Michael B. Jordan is bad ass and I highly encourage any filmmaker considering him for any role to put him in it.
 

SinisterDeath

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2012 Wont Happen said:
I don't have any problem with a black member of the Fantastic Four, or really any problem with that member being Johnny Storm. It just wouldn't be the best character to make black from a logical perspective.

Johnny Storm is a rash and generally pretty violent character who fits all too well into the stereotypes racists apply to black people. In addition, he has a sister in the group. Granted, they could also cast a black actress as his sister or explain that one had been adopted to get around that, but if they don't do one of those things it wouldn't make sense.

It would make more sense to cast a black actor as Reed Richards. From a standpoint of re-envisioning comics written in a more racist time, it would make more sense as Richards is a highly intellectual character. From a standpoint of plot consistency, as the majority of big name actors and actresses in Hollywood are white, it would be easier to cast a black man in the role of Richards.

All of that being said, Michael B. Jordan is bad ass and I highly encourage any filmmaker considering him for any role to put him in it.
See I mostly disagree with Johny being black, if his sister isn't black to. Making him Adopted, could be a fix. But generally they've always been a brother-sister team, From essentially a 'rich' family. (and yes, the rich family could have adopted Johny) And while I'm not against a multi-diversity family at all. (and if walmarts any guide, neither is the general population!) Those that read the comics, might get pissed if they make them not siblings. That's half of their rivalry right there.

As to the quote;
Now see, that I can agree with.
The comment about the stereotypical issues with having him play Johny, versus having a black actor play Richards? A guy who is an intelligent, scientist role model of a figure. (Though I could imagine the jokes about his super power o_O)

Side note.
This guy should play Reed Richards.


Seriously, ever nerd in the world would see the movie if he was Reed Richards. lol
 

vid87

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8-Bit_Jack said:
vid87 said:
Mr Fantastic - Genius, a bit oblivious, has trouble relating to others and taking emotional cues.

Johnny Storm - "Hot-head," energetic, never takes things seriously, reckless.

The Thing - Grumpy (especially about his transformation), acts tough but can be vulnerable.

Invisible Woman - .........


What exactly IS her "established" character? From what I understand, she's gone through so many personality changes, a lot of times mainly reflecting the dominant trends of women stereotypes:

50's - Meek, useless, goes by "Girl" instead of "Woman."

60's-70's - Recognizes past character, becomes far more independent, scornful.

Present (at least from what I've gathered from Tv / film versions) - Takes charge, no nonsense, babysitter to her adult(?) brother, frustrated with Reed's emotional disconnect.

I don't want to turn this into a gender issue, but would you say that latter one is what we "officially" recognize as her character, or is that the writer's way making as sure as they can that they don't revert to a more offensive character like the former? Could she maybe stand to gain a few more qualities to round out her personality? Could ALL of them use some rounding out? I'm curious.
You realize that you're just making my point, right? About Sue Storm, I mean. Her whole character is "and also, the woman!"
I kind've thought when you said "established character" that there was something more to work with than that. I need to mention that I'm a comics novice at best and don't have a lot of knowledge about a lot of characters, even recent comic events. What I had listed is what I've heard mostly through the grapevine and limited experience with comics and other media so I thought I may have been missing something that you or someone else could elaborate on.

So, yeah, I agree with your point. And we could extend that to other female characters for that matter, at least those who aren't X-Men or She-Hulk. For example, does Wasp have any notable characteristics outside her relationship (troubled or otherwise) with Pym? Does Ms (now Captain I believe?) Marvel have a defined personality outside her bought with alcoholism?

Springboarding again before this turns off-topic (which I apologize since I seem like I've been steering it that way), I think this line of thinking applies to black characters too in that there's not much dimentionalization outside of their race - like, maybe for Black Panther, but not for Luke Cage. As I said before, maybe making Johnny black could prove to be a good thing in terms of making his personality have more meaning other than "he's just a goof."
 

mrseriousguy

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SinisterDeath said:
2012 Wont Happen said:
I don't have any problem with a black member of the Fantastic Four, or really any problem with that member being Johnny Storm. It just wouldn't be the best character to make black from a logical perspective.

Johnny Storm is a rash and generally pretty violent character who fits all too well into the stereotypes racists apply to black people. In addition, he has a sister in the group. Granted, they could also cast a black actress as his sister or explain that one had been adopted to get around that, but if they don't do one of those things it wouldn't make sense.

It would make more sense to cast a black actor as Reed Richards. From a standpoint of re-envisioning comics written in a more racist time, it would make more sense as Richards is a highly intellectual character. From a standpoint of plot consistency, as the majority of big name actors and actresses in Hollywood are white, it would be easier to cast a black man in the role of Richards.

All of that being said, Michael B. Jordan is bad ass and I highly encourage any filmmaker considering him for any role to put him in it.
See I mostly disagree with Johny being black, if his sister isn't black to. Making him Adopted, could be a fix. But generally they've always been a brother-sister team, From essentially a 'rich' family. (and yes, the rich family could have adopted Johny) And while I'm not against a multi-diversity family at all. (and if walmarts any guide, neither is the general population!) Those that read the comics, might get pissed if they make them not siblings. That's half of their rivalry right there.

As to the quote;
Now see, that I can agree with.
The comment about the stereotypical issues with having him play Johny, versus having a black actor play Richards? A guy who is an intelligent, scientist role model of a figure. (Though I could imagine the jokes about his super power o_O)

Side note.
This guy should play Reed Richards.


Seriously, ever nerd in the world would see the movie if he was Reed Richards. lol

Neil Degrasse Tyson as Reed would be an improvement. At least he'll get the science and terms Right. I have no problem with Black Johnny and/or Sue it adds layers on the character which originally was stated above. And lets be Honest here if Stan Lee isn't bitching about this characters changing colors or adding different dimensions. Why should complain?
 

Taurus Vis

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Idris Elba played Heimdallr awesome in Thor. I see no problem. I also liked Michael Duncan as Kingpin in Daredevil. He was probably the only good part of that movie.
 

R.Nevermore

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I say we get Peter Dinklage to play the next James Bond. I mean... He's a dwarf... But it's only one little feature. Ad it's not as if anyone ever mentions Bond's lack of dwarfism right? It's not exactly defining to his character.

Look... While I don't care at all about fantastic four, I do care about bond. And I think it would be dumb to make the next bond black. Does that make me racist? I have a preexisting image in my head of what Bond should look like. Daniel Craig pushed it, but he was able to. He played the part better than any other since Sean Connery. The changes to bond's image here were subtle, but could be overcome by fine acting. Certain changes would be too massive, and would shatter my perception of bond in a most unwelcome way. It wouldn't be bond, even if he played the part well... I could never accept him. I mean, I have no doubt that Peter Dinklage could play a fantastic James Bond... But I still wouldn't accept him in that role

If we really want a suave, womanizing secret agent, and we want him to be black, lets have a new IP altogether.

Better yet, I'd like to see an IP with Peter Dinklage playing a badass action role where his dwarfism isn't a central defining part of his character. It's there, and it's mentioned, but it isn't defining.
 

EyeReaper

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i don't really care, as the fantastic four aren't that great in my opinion, but I can see why people could get mad at this without being racist. What's so bad about sticking to the source material? that's what an adaption should do.
Think about it like this, what if they did this in the hobbit? what if they made gandalf black and turned bilbo baggins into a woman? gender differences should be just as irrelevant as race differences right?
 

gwilym101

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I'm not fussed about a black actor getting a role but aren't the human torch and the invisible woman brother and sister? That seems like a really important bit of lore to just scrap for film.

Are they going to make her black as well?
 

darlarosa

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I don't care either way so long as he's good and they make it consistent 'ala Sue is black too or something to explain.

But does the world need a Fantastic Four movie...I know they have their fans, but they are....to me....so boring...

-edit-
On the Bond thing....Didn't Skyfall basically clarify that there are numerous "James Bonds/007" agents...so any discomfort over his appearance is pretty irrelevant or dumb because having a "image" of Bond in your head means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
 

Brad Shepard

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Jesus Christ why? Why does every single freaking discussion nowdays have to end in racism or sexism or whatever?! God im getting sick of it. Look, Get it though your heads why these people would be upset, He is white in the books, every single one of them, THATS why people are upset, comic fans want there heros to stay the same, hell, Did you see the rage about Superior spiderman? Mind you i got pissed at that too, but yea, that not the point of this post, i dont care because i dont care about F4, but hell, dont call people racist for no god damn reason, or worse yet, the wrong reason, if they start screaming the N word or something, yea, call them Racist, i will join you in that, but for crying out loud people, this should not be a 16 page topic over something so little as this, how about the guy from destrutoid that got fired for exposing a scam but the people in it called sexism (transism?) because the person doing the scam was Trans and got all butthurt that they used the wrong pronoun or whatnot. But i feel like im pissing into the wind sometimes, the last time i posted a rant like this I got so much shit because i did not like the ME3 ending or something, but whatever, im going back to my video games.

EDIT: Ok, i had to laugh that i ranted about this being 16 pages then my post making it 17.
 
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Isn't it more important whether or not the actor actually fits the role?

Casting isn't about skin colour necessarily, but skin colour is part of someone's appearance and appearance can often be vital to casting someone in the proper role.

I'm much more concerned as to whether or not he'd actually fit the role of Johnny Storm.
 

MoD1212

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Some_weirdGuy said:
So, genuine question:

If they were instead considering a female actor for the human touch, would complainers be considered sexist?

and to current supporters, would you continue to support this ((and would you continue to use the same kind of justification: 'is the gender really an important part of the human tourches character? What does it matter which chromosomes they have?')
What about current non-supporters, would you continue to argue it's demerits based on their previous depictions not being female?
Different situation completely, Johnny Storms defining characteristics is that he is Sue's younger brother and is arrogant, a trickster, and a playboy. Making him a black guy changes none of this while making him female would completely change his/her and Sues' relationship
 

MoD1212

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defskyoen said:
For that matter, how would people react if any of the following characters would be cast as "white" in some next movie?
Bumblebee, Cyborg, John Stewart (Gren Lantern), Steel, Bishop, Black Panther, Storm, War Machine
Or what if they decided to "transform" some of their most iconic characters like Superman or Batman into black transexuals?
It depends, to certain characters, their race is central to their back story and origin. Storm for example could never be white because of the fact that prof X found her in Kenya being praised as a goddess by the locals. Even tho her father was an American, her living in Africa is a huge part of her that would have to change if you made her white.
Black Panther even more so since he is the ruler of a African nation that's never been conquered thru out history and would not have any white citizens period.

War Machine on the other hand could be changed since I don't know of any aspect of his character that relies on him being black. It would just be a bad move since Tony is white and that would just get rid of the only black character instead of adding one like the Johnny Storm move would.

Bruce Wayne couldn't be black because the Waynes are an old family that helped build Gotham and a black family would not have been in a position to do that. And black or whatever guy/girl/transsexual taking over the batman mantle could be ok if handle correctly.

In Johnny case nothing about him relies on him being white, the most important part is that he is Sue's brother and that he's reckless, and black man can be both with out breaking his character