So about all of this sexual assault...

Casual Shinji

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Saelune said:
Plus again, bias is a major concern. I know I am trying my hardest to not let bias cloud my judgement though, but its not easy. I mean, nothing of Takei's life suggests he could do such a thing and lie about it...but if he could lie about it, then thats a scary thought.
It's also disconcerning knowing that a lot of the movies, games, shows etc that we love are made by or feature people that have a very ugly side. Some cases it's relatively minor, like Mel Gibson being a bit of a racist nut, and others it involves truly awful shit, like with O.J. Simpson. I know that whenever I watch The Naked Gun now it just feels kinda icky.
 

gigastar

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Laggyteabag said:
...much like with Kevin Spacey, who's career is now in the gutter.
Spacey didnt deny the allegation from Rapp, and he arguably made it worse by coming out as gay as a deflection.

And that was before the extra allegations from his colleagues also working on House of Cards.
 

K12

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Thaluikhain said:
Innocent until proven guilty is a legal thing.
It's also not the only legal standard for proof. Civil courts go by the preponderence of evidence which on a day to day basis is how most people think (obviously weighted by all the various unconscious biases that come with being human).

Sexual crimes and sexual misconduct are especially difficult to claim "innocent until proven guilty" because pretty much anyone (including me) believes that the VAST majority of sexual offences are never reported or never lead to a conviction. Far outweighing the cases where false accusations lead to wrongful punishments, though that does also happen.

I think some people are leaping to guilt right away in recognition of this imbalance. I do sympathise with that attitude and I agree that believing the victims is important for the long term progress on combating "rape culture". However, many abuse victims never come forward largely because they have some affection for their abusers and don't want to get them in lots of trouble. I can't help but think that mass condemnation for lesser actions might be counter-productive.

Louis CK, for example, should not be compared to the likes of Weinstein. Louis was much more creepy than predatory and I believe him when he says he didn't fully appreciate the implicitly coercive nature of what he did at the time and that he's remorseful and would never do something like that nowadays. I hope he takes some time out of the public eye and gets a chance to rebuild his reputation... I do happen to be a massive fan of his so perhaps my bias is clouding my objectivity on this one.

Ultimately, I think a lot of people are going to have make peace with the fact that we're never going to have definitive "proof" either way on some of these cases. Guilty people are likely to avoid jail sentences (perhaps even Weinstein) and possibly some innocent men will have their reputations ruined by false or exaggerated claims. Justice is really hard!
 

Zhukov

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inu-kun said:
Edit: I wonder what will happen if there was an accusation of rape of a male by female, especially by an esteemed actress I'd expect the guy would get crucified.
Already happened, kinda.

A former bodyguard of Mariah Carey accused her of sexual misconduct and harrassment.

It even included a spicy racial angle.

As far as I'm aware no crucifixion was forthcoming, although I haven't been actively following it.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I'm giving George Takei the benefit of a doubt till we get much more info. All the other accused had large numbers of people accusing them. This is just one guy and while if it is true, its horrible, it also fits into a timeline of false accusations starting. If more people come forward then I might give it some additional attention, but till then I'm assuming innocent till proven otherwise.
 

munx13

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Innocent until proven guilty is what so many people are forgetting.


That being said, that didn't stop George for declaring others "guilty" of the same thing, so it's quite sweet seeing him swallow some of his own bitter medicine.
 

Warhound

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Honestly I am not surprised. I kinda saw it coming when he started in on Milo for saying the exact same things he has said in the past.
 

Thaluikhain

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stroopwafel said:
Fact is that false accusations assassinate someone's name and character while the accuser is most often given the benefit of the doubt. That has been true throughout all of history but espescially in the current age of social media witch hunts and regular media's hypocritical herd mentality. Even if proven that the accusations were false the stigma will remain and the damage has been done.
Not true. Trump is PotUS, for example, winning an election after being accused by several woman and also boasting of sexual assault. People have been talking about Weinstein for many years, only now is he feeling any result of it. Arnie still is gets to be in Terminator movies.

Hell, even when there's no doubt about it, it's not always so damaging to a reputation. Polanski admitted to raping a child, fled the US and went on to have a long and distinguished film career. Mike Tyson has star power, the community of Steubenville rallied behind the rapists against the victims etc.

Now, it can happen that a false accusation is taken seriously, but in those cases we tend to see an accuser of much greater social standing than the accused. A respectable middle class white woman accusing lower class black men of rape, for example, playing on racism and classism, she might get away with that.
 

Arnoxthe1

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stroopwafel said:
Even in Christianity if you read Dante's Inferno the worst layer of Hell was actually reserved for liars of a similar stature.
Liars and betrayers, but yeah.

I don't consider Dante's Inferno to be gospel at all of course, but in my religion, the unforgivable sins are basically sins of extreme betrayal, and they're also ultimately what made Lucifer (a Son of the Morning I might add) get cast out of heaven.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Maybe enough powerful people will be irreparably damaged without due process that there will be a change in our laws to make such slandering and ruinous rumors prior to the adjudication of charges illegal and to keep them confidential in the same way people protect the identities of minors who are charged with or are victims of crimes.


That being said, these people are still filthy rich and most of them aren't actually going to jail so I really don't care what happens to such an empty thing as their "reputation" since they can buy people to be nice to them till the day they die. I'm gonna save my sympathy for the thousands of poor kids in third world countries who will die due to starvation today instead.
 

Erttheking

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inu-kun said:
Zhukov said:
inu-kun said:
Edit: I wonder what will happen if there was an accusation of rape of a male by female, especially by an esteemed actress I'd expect the guy would get crucified.
Already happened, kinda.

A former bodyguard of Mariah Carey accused her of sexual misconduct and harrassment.

It even included a spicy racial angle.

As far as I'm aware no crucifixion was forthcoming, although I haven't been actively following it.
Searching about it online it seems to be tightly swept under the rug without any blowback to her career. Which I guess is marginally better than going against the guy but completely hypocritical considering the entire point in all hashtags is going against powerful people making those claims disappear without any damage.
I could've sworn you got on my back for using victims to "push an agenda" not too long ago. Is it ok to do now?
 

Cicada 5

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For those doubting the accusations against Takei, here's an interview he did on Howard Stern where he bragged about grabbing people by the crotch.

https://youtu.be/OLtw9Tpg9Pg
 

WeepingAngels

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undeadsuitor said:
Thaluikhain said:
Also, people are assuming right away that he's guilty, which seems odd. Not that long ago, people were giving Cosby the benefit of 50+ doubts, Takei doesn't even get one...at least from some people. I suspect there are people hostile to Takei using this as an excuse.
You have to remember both Spacey and Takei sexually assaulted men, and is thus 200 times more icky and gross to the common person

as opposed to powerful men taking advantage of women under their thumb which is a tuesday (and pretty much the dream for every working class man forever)
Did you really just accuse every working class male of wanting to take advantage of women?
 

theamazingbean

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Strictly speaking, yes innocent until proven guilty absolutely.

Off topic, liberals promulgated this environment with their "listen and believe" nonsense, it is absolutely hilarious watching it bite liberals in the ass.
 

Burnswell

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Hollywood is full of this sort of gossip which makes you wonder why the heck doesn't it get reported to the police? Or maybe it did?
 

Saelune

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theamazingbean said:
Strictly speaking, yes innocent until proven guilty absolutely.

Off topic, liberals promulgated this environment with their "listen and believe" nonsense, it is absolutely hilarious watching it bite liberals in the ass.
Yeah, how dare liberals actually punish people who do wrong. I mean, we cant all be Fox News and actively promote sexual assault.
 

kitsunefather

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Saelune said:
theamazingbean said:
Strictly speaking, yes innocent until proven guilty absolutely.

Off topic, liberals promulgated this environment with their "listen and believe" nonsense, it is absolutely hilarious watching it bite liberals in the ass.
Yeah, how dare liberals actually punish people who do wrong. I mean, we cant all be Fox News and actively promote sexual assault.
I think, to put it less antagonistically, can you now understand why people were against the "listen and believe" narrative? That a single declaration should not be treated as the sole evidence necessary to presume guilt?