So about all of this sexual assault...

Thaluikhain

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Vanilla ISIS said:
It's going to stop once one of these accused rich and powerful people hires a great lawyer, sues the accuser and wins.
Possibly, but some rape victims can be very determined in going after their attackers.

Rose McGowan has been after Weinstein for years. Apparently he hired security companies run by ex-Mossad agents to harass her and that didn't work.

A lot of victims will likely be frightened back into silence, yeah, but only takes a few who speak out to get the ball rolling.
 

Trunkage

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Here Comes Tomorrow said:
erttheking said:
theamazingbean said:
Strictly speaking, yes innocent until proven guilty absolutely.

Off topic, liberals promulgated this environment with their "listen and believe" nonsense, it is absolutely hilarious watching it bite liberals in the ass.
Bite in the ass? How? I'm not a tribalistic at all costs type who votes for presidents who talk about grabbing people in the pussy. I care more about making sure sexual assault isn't a consequence free crime than making my side look good, thank you very much.

If Takei did this, and I hope he didn't, it shouldn't be swept under the rug.
Because if he denies it (which he has) it makes him a hypocrite and ruins his credibility as any sort of advocate for sexual abuse movements.
I'd agree this ruins his advocacy. But denying isn't hypocracy yet (as he isn't guitly yet.) The whole 'listen and believe' thing doesn't negate a person's right to defend themselves as some pundits might make you think. It's that a story should be listened to and checked for validity before being dismissed.
 

thepyrethatburns

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To the OP: Stuff happens. I imagine that, until it affected a media personality that you liked, you didn't care. You may have even gleefully joined in on the bashing of the accused.
 

Quellist

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People love outrage, scandal and a reason to hate on someone, especially if that someone embodies or espouses a belief they don't share.

Basically Slipknot put it best People=Shit
 

bastardofmelbourne

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kitsunefather said:
I think, to put it less antagonistically, can you now understand why people were against the "listen and believe" narrative? That a single declaration should not be treated as the sole evidence necessary to presume guilt?
I don't think anyone ever advocated actually treating one accusation as the sole evidence necessary to establish guilt. It was more about not dismissing these kinds of allegations out of hand.

Sexual assault allegations against celebrities are uncomfortable for fans of those celebrities. They want to believe that their idols are decent people. Even if they don't acknowledge it consciously, they're thinking of reasons to not believe an allegation before they even hear the details.

The correct response is not to assume that all allegations are true. It is to give all allegations the same weight. People will readily accept allegations against people they don't like, but jump through hoops to find ways to exculpate the people they do. The point is to break out of that mold and stop letting your opinion of a celebrity's public image cloud your judgment. Give the allegations the same credit you would if the participants were complete strangers. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance]
 

Callate

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It's a pretty @#$%ed up situation all the way around.

On one hand, there's no lack of evidence that people who have been victims of sexual abuse have had a terrible time of it in the U.S. for a long, long time. (I'm not saying it's been sunshine and rainbows elsewhere, mind you, just that I don't have the frame of reference.) Colleges, churches, and other entrenched bureaucracies have been exposed covering up allegations of sexual abuse. Trials exposed victims to the tender mercies of mass publicity while defenders simultaneously sought to reveal anything that might be taken as weakness of judgement or character, smearing victims while re-opening often traumatic wounds. The simple fact of the matter is that when an abuser is known to the victim (as is usually the case), suddenly everyone in both peoples' social circles is going to be looking at them in a different light- and with the status quo being something many want to staunchly defend, many in that social circle are going to want to believe that it couldn't be true, that it's exaggerated, that the accusations are being made up.

On the other hand, a false accusation- and there have been some- can utterly ruin someone's life, even if it never goes to trial. The Atlantic did a multi-part piece about the fallout of the "51% belief in guilt" standard on college campuses, and some of the stories are utterly horrifying. "Victims" coached to believe that inconclusive or vague memories were signs of assault; counselors trained to wrongly interpret such signs as proof. People who were thrown out of college or denied scholarships because of accusations even the alleged victims themselves vehemently denied.

There's a not-at-all-quiet trend to believe that accusations of sexual abuse don't deserve the "innocent until proven guilty" standard, and in the meantime, the damage that can be done to someone by an accusation can make an actual legal accusation and the consequences seem positively gentle by comparison. Losing a career or a business you've spent decades making, a reputation you've worked hard to earn, your future because you can no longer attend classes- to pretend these are trivial matters is to approach the matter in a willful and arrogant ignorance.

It is unfortunate that we cannot seem to find a middle ground on these matters- we either treat every accusation as not merely valid but sacrosanct in the name of protecting the victim, or we treat victims with more cruelty and intense scrutiny than the person who may have actually committed a terrible crime.

No one wants to be the person who "coddles rapists". But we've gone so far the other way as to render going through the actual legal process in some cases irrelevant and unnecessary- the accusation alone is enough to ensure the accused will be punished.

And yet if the accused is guilty, how can we expect the victim to keep going to classes when their attacker will be present? How can we hesitate if there's a pattern of abuse that will continue in inaction?

If we were better people, we could protect someone who might be a victim and watch over someone who might be an assailant without preemptively passing judgment in the process. But we're not, and I don't think we're going to become so any time soon.
 

CheetoDust_v1legacy

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Here Comes Tomorrow said:
, Louis CKs career is basically over.
I doubt it. The man was able to self finance a TV show out of pocket and sell it through his own website. He sells all his specials and albums through his own website and he sells tickets to his show through his website. His career will probably take a hit but as long as there's people to buy his stuff he's big enough that he doesn't need a middle man to sell it through.

Besides, as a comedian he makes jokes about rape and how much better white people have it. The extremes on both sides have decided he's the worst long ago because he's a beta cuck SJW rape apologist racist.
 

Thaluikhain

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Callate said:
No one wants to be the person who "coddles rapists".
A lot of people don't seem to mind. Again, Trump was accused of sexual assault and became PotUS, Polanski never denied raping a kid and went on to have a long career, the community of Steubenville etc.

In any case, it's not just a matter of leaning towards punish the guilty or leaning towards protect the innocent, there is also a massive lack of interest and resistance to getting anything done. In the US, for example, most rape kits aren't tested, people collect the samples, and put them into storage and throw them out when they need the room for something else. Private charities are having to try and collect the slack, because the authorities don't seem to care.
 

Callate

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Thaluikhain said:
A lot of people don't seem to mind. Again, Trump was accused of sexual assault and became PotUS, Polanski never denied raping a kid and went on to have a long career, the community of Steubenville etc.

In any case, it's not just a matter of leaning towards punish the guilty or leaning towards protect the innocent, there is also a massive lack of interest and resistance to getting anything done. In the US, for example, most rape kits aren't tested, people collect the samples, and put them into storage and throw them out when they need the room for something else. Private charities are having to try and collect the slack, because the authorities don't seem to care.
It's never easier not to care than when money is at stake. Staff, lab testing, and storage are all money that instead could go to things that make many people feel safer- officers on patrol, military-style hardware.

"Safer" until it's you or your family member who needs a rape kit, anyway.

I totally agree that it's ridiculous and cruel that private charities should need to do such a thing. And it's one more thing that prevents victims from coming forward with formal, legal complaints, which shouldn't be the case.
 

NiGHTSJOD

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If Taekei comes out as straight, would that help? :p

Saelune said:
theamazingbean said:
Saelune said:
Speaking of, I would have more faith in our judicial system if it did not protect murderous racist cops and if our government did not have a sex offender leading it.
You do realize neither of those is actually true, right? Liberal talking points != reality.
If you want to deny facts, thats on you.
I am not a Trump fan but can you provide me with information on the law he has broken/the crime he committed that warrants Trump being put in jail (as another user above said)? Sure, he's a moron/jock/sleazeball/whatever but being those is not a crime. If he has actually commited sexual assault, the justice system will pass the only judgement that should matter. Not you, not me, not the mob - only the law. Otherwise, there would be nothing but chaos.

As for the police part of your statement, you are insinuating that all cops (or at least a good proportion of them) are racists. This is something you cannot say without providing evidence that this is the case (and I dont mean some pie chart someone has knocked up - I mean figures and convictions of such).

undeadsuitor said:
Is "office boss with a slutty secretary that sucks at office work but is great at sucking dick" not a boilerplate office fantasy?

I'm not accusing every man on the planet of rape, but I am saying that a large number of sexual fantasies involve the other person in a subordinate position to themselves
That's a flawed argument. You could argue the polar opposite with the teacher/student fantasy (a fantasy every bit as common as the one you have given an example of). Or the nurse/patient fantasy too. Both tend to be female teacher/nurse
 

Saelune

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NiGHTSJOD said:
If Taekei comes out as straight, would that help? :p

Saelune said:
theamazingbean said:
Saelune said:
Speaking of, I would have more faith in our judicial system if it did not protect murderous racist cops and if our government did not have a sex offender leading it.
You do realize neither of those is actually true, right? Liberal talking points != reality.
If you want to deny facts, thats on you.
I am not a Trump fan but can you provide me with information on the law he has broken/the crime he committed that warrants Trump being put in jail (as another user above said)? Sure, he's a moron/jock/sleazeball/whatever but being those is not a crime. If he has actually commited sexual assault, the justice system will pass the only judgement that should matter. Not you, not me, not the mob - only the law. Otherwise, there would be nothing but chaos.

As for the police part of your statement, you are insinuating that all cops (or at least a good proportion of them) are racists. This is something you cannot say without providing evidence that this is the case (and I dont mean some pie chart someone has knocked up - I mean figures and convictions of such).

undeadsuitor said:
Is "office boss with a slutty secretary that sucks at office work but is great at sucking dick" not a boilerplate office fantasy?

I'm not accusing every man on the planet of rape, but I am saying that a large number of sexual fantasies involve the other person in a subordinate position to themselves
That's a flawed argument. You could argue the polar opposite with the teacher/student fantasy (a fantasy every bit as common as the one you have given an example of). Or the nurse/patient fantasy too.
Ah yes "What law has he broken" argument, because all laws are always just right? Robotic thinking. Being a racist murderous bigot should be a crime, unfortunately it apparently isnt, case in point, the police.

And I believe the police would use the term 'accomplice'. Dont have to rob the bank yourself, but being the getaway driver still makes you guilty of robbing a bank. Any and all cops who knowingly stay silent or defend their racist fellows are just as guilty.

Trump should be tried on treason if nothing else though, if that would suit your stiff ideas on moral law. Anyone who thinks Trump didnt collude with Russia...is no one. Its just a matter of who will admit it.
 

NiGHTSJOD

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Saelune said:
Ah yes "What law has he broken" argument, because all laws are always just right? Robotic thinking. Being a racist murderous bigot should be a crime, unfortunately it apparently isnt, case in point, the police.

And I believe the police would use the term 'accomplice'. Dont have to rob the bank yourself, but being the getaway driver still makes you guilty of robbing a bank. Any and all cops who knowingly stay silent or defend their racist fellows are just as guilty.

Trump should be tried on treason if nothing else though, if that would suit your stiff ideas on moral law. Anyone who thinks Trump didnt collude with Russia...is no one. Its just a matter of who will admit it.
FWIW, I do think Russia probably had some sort of involvement too. But we don't know it
 

Thaluikhain

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NiGHTSJOD said:
If he has actually commited sexual assault, the justice system will pass the only judgement that should matter.
Assuming that the justice system works as intended. The vast majority of sexual assaults aren't punished.

(Oh, and that's implying that the justice system is intended to work in a moral way to begin with, but in the specific general instances of "sexual assault should lead to punishment" that is, at least nominally, the case so isn't an issue here.)

NiGHTSJOD said:
As for the police part of your statement, you are insinuating that all cops (or at least a good proportion of them) are racists. This is something you cannot say without providing evidence that this is the case (and I dont mean some pie chart someone has knocked up - I mean figures and convictions of such).
Or that the unspecified number of police who are murderous and racist are protected, which does rather seem to be the case. Now, of course, this requires lots of police to not do anything about the problem, but you could argue that's due to fear of reprisals rather than sympathy to racists.
 

Erttheking

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NiGHTSJOD said:
As for the police part of your statement, you are insinuating that all cops (or at least a good proportion of them) are racists. This is something you cannot say without providing evidence that this is the case (and I dont mean some pie chart someone has knocked up - I mean figures and convictions of such).
You do know that the Blue Wall of Silence is a thing, right? Cops are expected to protect their own, even if their own are scumbags.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence

Tribalism. Ain't it great?

And we seriously can't act like there isn't a police problem in the United States. Not after the "I wasn't aiming for the black man lying on the ground with his hands in the air, I was aiming at the autistic man with a toy" incident, where a police office shot three shots at a black man lying on the ground with his hands up and an autistic man sitting on the ground with a toy, and the police union DEFENDED him when charges came up. The cop was responding to reports of a suicidal man for fuck's sake.
 

Cold Shiny

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Saelune said:
Honestly, this has all been bothering me alot cause well, look, I want good to prevail. I want those who did wrong, especially against others to not just get away with it. I dont want to discourage people speaking out when they are wronged...

But people are terrible in all sorts of ways. I hate every knowingly false accuser, cause they are ruining innocent people, both innocent people they accuse, and the credibility of real victims who do speak out.

I also acknowledge the bias. Its easy to believe that a person you dont like did something bad. Alot harder to believe or accept someone you like doing wrong. I know I really want to believe that Takei is innocent, that Spacey is innocent, but if they arent, they shouldnt get to go unpunished.

I just wished we lived in a just society. We dont. Even if Takei is guilty, I think it is wrong to have him get punished but not someone like Trump.

Another issue is where is the line of forgiveness? I mean, some acts are unforgivable, but what about lesser wrongful acts? What if someone does own up and apologize? When does it count? When does it not?

People are prone to bandwagoning. To throwing others under the bus. Even if Takei is guilty, how many who 'knew' really just hate gay people? Or just hate Takei and want to add fuel to a fire?

Even Cosby, I am sure many of his accusers are liars and know it, and that hurts the credibility of those not lying, who dared to speak out.

We honestly need to be open-minded but cautiously skeptical. We need to try to really consider what we know, what we dont know, and why we think or want to think what we do.

I hope every guilty person gets fairly punished, be it rapists, assaulters, or false accusers. I want the innocent to come out ok, be it victims of sexual assault or rape, or victims of false accusations. But who knows anymore?
Just for context, I almost never agree with Saelune, but I agree with everything said right here. Everyone is flying off in one direction or another when the reality is that the answer is more a combination of all the outcomes. I guarantee some of these people are lying, and I also guarantee some of them are 100% telling the truth.
 

Dazzle Novak

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http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/11/16/report-sylvester-stallone-accused/

And another one...

According to a Las Vegas police report, Stallone took her into a bedroom, where they had sex, while De Luca waited in the bathroom. Stallone then asked the victim if she had ever had a threesome, the report states. De Luca then entered the bedroom and the victim was forced into giving both men oral sex, the report reads. De Luca also had vaginal sex with her, the victim told police.

Don't have heroes, kids.
 

maninahat

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I had this same argument recently. As the first response says, innocence until proven guilty is for the courts, whilst I, as a bystander, am quite capable of coming to the conclusion that if a bunch of people claim a particular someone's assaulted them, he probably did assault them. I don't get to punish the guy, because I defer that authority to the courts and police, but I am capable of having an opinion. Now Takei , I thought, was one of the good ones, but me wishing it isn't true that he's done wrong also doesn't count as a basis for ignoring or denying the claim against him.

Note, me thinking someone is guilty does not (as people in my previous argument tried to suggest) mean that I support lynch mob mentalities. I might think someone's guilty, but that doesnt mean I can threaten him with violence or try to pillory the guy on his Twitter page. Meanwhile, business's cutting ties with someone is defendable from a work perspective: a business does not need a law court to prove someone is guilty of misconduct before they can terminate a contract over a reasonable suspicion of misconduct.
 

Malpraxis

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I mean, I believe in the innocent until proven guilty principle, so I don't throw stones at the accused, literally or virtually. But, on the other hand, I wouldn't let them babysit my niece either.
As far as I think, their careers shouldn't be over due to accusations, but the companies they work for should hold them to a higher standard, and demand they clear their name in court.
Of course that won't happen, and I predict at the very least 4 more accusations just this week, and shows being cancelled, and people forgetting all about it within a couple months.

By the way, The Rock touched me :'(
 

Asuka Langley

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If we're talking sexual abuse, can we bring up the sexual misconduct recently brought up from IGN's offices? Apparently HR and Higher Management dismissed a woman who came to them last year with complaints about one of their now ex-writers sexually harassing them and they all dismissed it telling her to pick better friends?

Or are we not allowed to go there because it brushes too close to GG related discussion?
 

djl3485

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Al Franken is now accused, with the accuser providing photographic evidence.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/woman-accuses-al-franken-of-kissing-groping-her-without-consent/ar-BBF2Snk