So according to some feminists, this anti-rape ad campaign is sexist

Jamous

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
Jamous said:
If that was actually a 'don't get raped' advertisement then I'd probably stand with the post. But it really isn't; it's not really aimed at the victim or the rapist. It's an awareness ad, surely? It's basically saying to stick by your friends and help them out in case they get into a dodgy situation whilst drunk. I might be completely misunderstanding the advert, but hey.
On an aside, I doubt ads aimed at Rapists would be all that effective, unfortunately. Maybe I don't get the character of a rapist all that well but it doesn't seem to me that a potential rapist would really be put off by an advert. That said, I don't think that ads should be aimed at victims either. If you're going to make adverts at all, awareness raising ads with some statistics or examples would probably be the best way to do it.
On another aside, is that ad really saying it's the woman's fault? Yes, it's saying her judgement's impaired due to booze or drugs, but is it saying it's her fault because of that? I don't think so, but maybe I'm just being naive. Ah well.
"Wow, wow, wow, slow down. Let me watch that video again. You mean that woman who thrashed about screaming and then spent the rest of the time sobbing DIDNT want to have sex with me? Man. If only I had seen this ad earlier."
My thoughts exactly.
 

darkfox85

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DrOswald said:
darkfox85 said:
Said a lot of good stuff.
I agree with a lot of what you said. Particularly I agree with this statement: "It's never someone's fault if they get raped. Ever. Not even slightly." However, I disagree that these kinds of ads will cause more damage than they prevent. These particular ads were poorly planned, but these types of campaigns are important. I believe that we as a society have a responsibility to teach rape prevention and that it is morally reprehensible not to.

I personally know 2 people who were raped. One of them was a 12 year old. I will not go into details, but it has caused terrible emotional damage. It was not her fault. But I cannot ignore the fact that with a few precautionary measures this person would not have been raped. If only she had been properly educated she may have avoided this life shattering experience.

It was not her fault. The blame lies with the rapist, but I cannot help but think that we as a society failed when she was never taught how to protect herself. It could have and should have been prevented. We have a responsibility as a society to teach women and girls how they can protect themselves.

I believe that victim blaming is more often a problem of perception these days. It is very rare anyone actually blames a girl when she is raped but we pussy foot around the issue so much that they might think we do. And once again that is our fault. We are far too timid. Education at a young age is the answer. We need to be clear and we need to reinforce our message with repetition. Girls should be getting the message from every side. Parents need to be involved, public education need to be involved, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to have a ads campaign or two so they can hear it again and again in their daily life. But sacrificing rape prevention is not the answer. These two ideas need to work side by side, each strengthening the other.

Sorry if I got a little hot headed there. This issue is very important to me.
Ah. Fair enough. I didn?t really specify that I don?t have any problem with preventative measures (I have my own ideas for public assistance and education in preventative measures) but the fault was this attempt as advice was in fact just very badly misguided, but I was pushing 2,500 ? I?m amazed anyone read it :-/

I?m sorry to hear about what happened to your friends. I?ve known four people (that I know of) who have been raped (one male) and one of them was 13. Only 1 was done by someone they didn?t know, I think only 1 was reported but, of course, no conviction. It screwed them up but rape survivors are tough bastards.

But you?re right. There is a kind of ?elephant in the room? about it. As if we?re indirectly doubting them (as if telling someone wasn?t scary enough.) And I actually agreed with everything else you said. But rape is tricky ? it?s not like breaking into someone?s house or stealing their car. There?s a lot going on and our efforts must be deliberate and careful.
 

Micalas

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John Funk said:
ITT mostly-privileged males misunderstand rape culture.

Rape is never the victim's fault. Prevention starts by changing how we men treat women, not by trying to control how women dress and act.
Jesus Christ. We're not saying it's the victims fault. It's never a victim's fault when a crime is committed against them. You are ignoring the fact that giving some tips to help prevent a crime against you is not the same as shifting blame.

If someone walks into your house in the middle of the night and steals all your shit I will blame the criminal but I will bemoan your choice to not lock the door. A locked door doesn't solve burglary issues but it certainly helps protect you.

If someone leaves $500 worth of electronics in the front seat of their car rather than bringing it in or putting it in the trunk I will blame the criminal but bemoan the fact that you didn't try to protect your shit a little better.

If you have a choice of walking home through the nice area of town full of smiling policemen and kids playing hopscotch and your town's equivalant of Skid Row and you choose Skid Row, I will blame the thugs that beat the shit out of you but will bemoan your choice of route.

In a world where everyone is good and wholesome there is no reason for the potential victim to take precautionary measures. But since we don't live in that world, precautionary measures is all we have before the law takes over. I know that what would constitute rape "provocation" for lack of a better word is not at clear cut as the things I mentioned but it's not victim blaming. It's telling you to be careful. Shit happens and there are things you can do to make it less likely.

Note: When I said rape "provocation" I meant something that, while it shouldn't hurt you, doesn't help you either.

CAPTCHA: Cockburn rteest. The punishment of rapists shall now be an artform! CAPTCHA has spoken!
 

Von Dean

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Could you please eleborate on those circumstances in which being raped is the victims fault,because frankly what you said is cold and needs some justification for being said
 

illas

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Apr 4, 2010
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Callate said:
...

There are no analogies that aren't bad analogies for something like rape, no analogies that aren't going to offend someone. So, here's a bad analogy.

A car is speeding along the road you want to cross. You're next to a cross walk; you have the right of way, so you enter the crosswalk, intending to cross. The car hits you.

Is the driver at fault? Yes. He or she should have stopped to let you cross. You did indeed have the right of way.

Are you any less injured?

Are you any less of an idiot for putting yourself in an avoidable situation that was likely to get you hurt?

Should men not rape women? Yes, of course. The point is obvious- so obvious that all the other PSAs telling men not to rape are at best getting ignored and at worst actively offending men of good conscience who never have and never would sexually assault someone with the assumption that possession of a penis makes you first and foremost a potential rapist, a sentiment that makes them want to tune out of the conversation altogether.

Just because men shouldn't rape doesn't mean that it isn't a good idea to avoid putting yourself in a position that increases the danger of being raped. And the notion that this one announcement is bad simply because if fails to wag the "don't rape, men" finger is so... counter-productive, to put it kindly. It suggests such an absolute blind spot in someone's thinking to absolutely equate "There are things you can do that make it less likely you will be raped" with "if you get raped, it's your fault." It does a disservice to women, honestly, to say that there's no value in building situational awareness.

Saying "it's wrong" does not keep you safe. Saying "you shouldn't do this" doesn't mean no one will. Yes, the building codes say that tenth-story window should support a certain amount of weight; still, don't lean on the window. Yes, the weather report says that it will clear up later today, still you probably shouldn't bring your umbrella to climb to the highest point in the area during that lightning storm.

Yes, you should absolutely be able to wander the six blocks to your home in the dark, alone, hammered on Bacardi, wearing nothing but a tube top and a g-string, unmolested. In a perfect world, you could.

Reality laughs at people who think they live in, or can create, a perfect world. Every Single Time. If you did the above, I would feel very sorry for you after the results. And yes, it would be the rapist's fault. And you would still have been raped, and regardless of where you say the blame should fall, you could have prevented it.
This, wholly this, in my opinion.

The organisation in question, despite good intentions, seems to have confused a woman putting herself at risk of being raped with a woman being at fault for being raped. Obviously the two are completely different.

If burglars steal all my stuff, they are at fault, but if I left my front door open and all the lights off then I put myself at risk of being robbed.

If anything, my problem with the poster would be that it's too... glossy. The photo could easily be from an underwear marketing campaign; and using a "sex sells" advertising approach in an attempt to prevent rape, is, well, odd... to say the least.
 

Stu35

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John Funk said:
ITT mostly-privileged males misunderstand rape culture.
It seems John Funk misunderstands reality.

See pretty much every analogy in this threat for what I'm talking about - there's plenty out there, and they all point at the same thing:


NOBODY IS BLAMING THE VICTIM, WE'RE JUST SAYING THAT WOMEN CAN, AND SHOULD, TAKE PRECAUTIONS TO HELP THEMSELVES REMAIN SAFE, BECAUSE WE DO NOT LIVE IN A PERFECT WORLD!!!!


I'm sorry for shouting, but jeebus, there is some huge misunderstanding going on about my teams side of this particular argument. Incidentally, we need a team name, I suggest: Most-Men-Are-Not-Rapists-Stop-Treating-Us-As-Such... or the Mongooses, thats a cool team name, the Fighting Mongooses.
 

Krantos

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thaluikhain said:
That's too easy. You don't have to be a sociopath to commit horrible acts like rape, history is full of normal people who have done terrible things. It's tempting to draw a line between "us" and "them", but it's not so simple.

It's long been documented that people who have been the victim of abuse are more likely to become perpetrators (not exclusively sexual, though). That is, they have learned to be that way. If they'd been taught otherwise, they might not have ended up criminals.
I guess sociopath is the wrong word, my fault. However, just because someone is "normal" doesn't meant they don't have psychological issues. Personally, I think that anyone who would intentionally rape someone has a disorder of some kind. They might not be straight sociopaths, but they aren't entirely healthy either.

And addressing your "If they'd been taught otherwise," is why I think society needs more education regarding what is and what is not acceptable behavior.
 

NightmareWarden

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omega 616 said:
"Alcohol is definitely a huge factor when it comes to sexual assault, but in no circumstances is it ever the victim's fault" I see these two as kind of contradictory, take some responsibility ... if I leave my front door open and I get robbed, it is partly my fault for doing that.

Should I have to lock my door? No 'cos everybody should be decent enough not to steal but people do steal and people do rape, so stop being stupid and getting so boozed up you become a target!

Using the same analogy, imagine if the police showed up to my flat.

"was your door locked?"
"no"
"why?"
"people should be decent enough not to rob me"
" ....... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

"were you drunk?"
"yes"
"ok, were you wearing reveling clothes?"
"yes"
"ok, were you leading guys on only to turn them away?"
"yes"
"ok, were you alone in a dark alley?"
"yes"
"damn those rapists! Picking on a poor innocent woman ..."

I am not saying they were asking for it or encouraging it but they made themselves a target.


I agree with this, but I don't think that this would be the best example of how rape can be partially the victim's fault. Here is what I view as the main reason a victim could get any portion of the blame: They knew of the traumatic effects of rape, they have an idea of what a rapist would look for, and yet they would leave themselves without the ability to defend themselves.
Is this harsh? Yes. If a woman goes out without any sort of protection and she loses her ability to think straight through drugs, then it is understandable why someone would think it was partly her fault that she was raped. Whether that is true or not...I think comes down to personal views. The vast majority of women have some level of understanding that there is a serious risk when they go out to a party, however they disregard their safety because they think something along the lines of "that will never happen to me". I'm trying (probably unsuccessfully) to take an unbiased stance to this issue; I'm not trying to say that it is a woman's own fault that she is raped, I'm saying that senseless disregard for your safety isn't a realistic defense for saying why it wasn't your/her fault.
Meh.

Edit: If anyone would like to debate my view for a constructive agreement, I'd love to, so send me a message if ya want.
 

teebeeohh

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and as usual the escapist forums react like an attack bunny trained on the word "feminist"
besides "some feminist" is not a real strong case, even if this ad was not sexist, there will always be "some" people who are part of a group who have certain opinion, this is not news.
 

Terminal Blue

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Every time I read a thread like this and read the responses, I get cripplingly depressed. In fact, I start to feel that many of you, my fellow human beings, have a markedly diminished sense of empathy, no imagination and are so pathologically insecure about your masculinity that you take any assertion that it might.. I don't know.. your responsibility to ensure that you don't sexually assault someone as an attack. I know objectively this cannot be true of all of you, but fucking hell people..

1) The advert is shit. You can see that, can't you? Since none of you seem to really care about rape until someone accuses you of not caring, I'm not necessarily asking you to understand, but seriously. Look at it. It looks like an advert for fucking Lynx deodorant. For the most part it reads like one too.

2) It's not a "rape prevention" advert, it's an anti-drinking advert which uses rape as a stick. 'Control tonight' is an anti-drinking initiative, not an anti-rape initiative.

3) Stop trying to second guess the situations in which people get raped or the mentality of rapists, especially if you're going to get it wrong. The average rapist doesn't believe they are 'raping' someone, the average rapist is drunk, the average rapist is raping an existing sexual partner or someone they know well.

The difference between being a rapist and not being a rapist is that rapist doesn't listen to their partner, even just for a couple of minutes, because they assume its okay or that someone has already consented by accompanying them home or getting into a relationship with them. Stop pretending you need to be a sociopath, you don't, you just need to be stupid for a minute, probably while drunk, and I'm sure every single person responding has done that. I have.

4) You want to talk about feminism? You want to know the meaning of terms like "rape culture". Go and read actual books, please. Learning what you're talking about earns you to the ability to give a meaningful opinion, and stops you sounding like a bleating idiot.
 

generals3

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Personally i don't see what's wrong with the ad. It doesn't state that the victim of a rape is somehow the culprit it just makes them aware of the dangers and pushes them to become more vigilant. And what's wrong with that?

It's like telling your kids not to take candy from a stranger, sure the candy shouldn't be poisonous or there shouldn't be a razor blade in it, but you never know and rather be safe than sorry.

Avoiding shit works in two ways:
- Be aware of the risks and do everything you can to minimize them
- Punish those who cause the shit

There will always be rotten apples and it seems a lot more constructive to teach people to avoid getting yourself in a situation where those rotten apples can harm you while still punishing the rotten apples than just tell people "you need to act in a way that doesn't take into account the risks of life".
 

dystopiaINC

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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
Both "don't rape" and "avoid being raped" are both very much widely taught sentiments...I don't know where she got the idea that wasn't true.

Personally, I'm really not convinced that we have the right to drink ourselves defenseless and never expect anything bad to happen as a result of it. It might sound cold, but, in the right circumstances, getting raped can be at least partly your fault.
the funny thing is in most cases we don't. rob a bank while shit faced and your still going to get charged with bank robbery. any other bad decision you make while drunk is still your responsibly so why is it SUDDENLY not your responsibility when you sleep with somebody and wake up to regret it? you made the choice to put yourself in a mentally vulnerable state and you made a poor choice by having sex while in that vulnerable state. how is it not your own fault at least partially?
 

DrOswald

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darkfox85 said:
DrOswald said:
darkfox85 said:
Said a lot of good stuff.
I agree with a lot of what you said. Particularly I agree with this statement: "It's never someone's fault if they get raped. Ever. Not even slightly." However, I disagree that these kinds of ads will cause more damage than they prevent. These particular ads were poorly planned, but these types of campaigns are important. I believe that we as a society have a responsibility to teach rape prevention and that it is morally reprehensible not to.

I personally know 2 people who were raped. One of them was a 12 year old. I will not go into details, but it has caused terrible emotional damage. It was not her fault. But I cannot ignore the fact that with a few precautionary measures this person would not have been raped. If only she had been properly educated she may have avoided this life shattering experience.

It was not her fault. The blame lies with the rapist, but I cannot help but think that we as a society failed when she was never taught how to protect herself. It could have and should have been prevented. We have a responsibility as a society to teach women and girls how they can protect themselves.

I believe that victim blaming is more often a problem of perception these days. It is very rare anyone actually blames a girl when she is raped but we pussy foot around the issue so much that they might think we do. And once again that is our fault. We are far too timid. Education at a young age is the answer. We need to be clear and we need to reinforce our message with repetition. Girls should be getting the message from every side. Parents need to be involved, public education need to be involved, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to have a ads campaign or two so they can hear it again and again in their daily life. But sacrificing rape prevention is not the answer. These two ideas need to work side by side, each strengthening the other.

Sorry if I got a little hot headed there. This issue is very important to me.
Ah. Fair enough. I didn?t really specify that I don?t have any problem with preventative measures (I have my own ideas for public assistance and education in preventative measures) but the fault was this attempt as advice was in fact just very badly misguided, but I was pushing 2,500 ? I?m amazed anyone read it :-/

I?m sorry to hear about what happened to your friends. I?ve known four people (that I know of) who have been raped (one male) and one of them was 13. Only 1 was done by someone they didn?t know, I think only 1 was reported but, of course, no conviction. It screwed them up but rape survivors are tough bastards.

But you?re right. There is a kind of ?elephant in the room? about it. As if we?re indirectly doubting them (as if telling someone wasn?t scary enough.) And I actually agreed with everything else you said. But rape is tricky ? it?s not like breaking into someone?s house or stealing their car. There?s a lot going on and our efforts must be deliberate and careful.
I agree that we must be careful. But people are not being careful. The anti victim blaming campaign is run on gut reaction. people do not properly consider what they are saying and it is damaging rape prevention efforts.

I have a great article on the issue which I linked below. I would like to quote one paragraph from the article:

"In order for women to be both free of the danger of sexual assault and free of the burden of risk management, the threat of sexual assault most be eliminated. This result will only come from irradiating Gender Violence from society. But this worthwhile goal, along with the goal of eliminating all human violence is not on the immediate horizon. In the meantime,
practicing risk management while also demanding societal change is the best method to reduce the chances and consequences of a sexual assault."

Far too often people are attacked for promoting risk management because people have become so offended at the idea of victim blaming they see it where it does not exist. This is harming the overall goal of reducing and perhaps eventually eliminating rape in our society. It is irresponsible behavior and has to stop.

http://streetharassmentdisruption.blogspot.com/2011/06/victim-blaming-threats-and-risks.html
 

Simriel

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The amount of idiotic spiel in this thread shows that you have never known anyone who has experienced rape. Our society DOES give across the message that it is 'their fault' for getting raped somehow, and that guilt is a MAJOR deterrent to recovery. This IS victim blaming, it's saying 'Hey, when you got raped, nope you coulda prevented it so its your bad.'
SuperMse said:
I fail to see why you guys are responding so vehemently against this. Is it because someone said the magic f word? No, not that one, the other one. Because this ad campaign is victim blaming at its best. It's telling women to avoid getting raped as opposed to telling men not to rape. It's making them the problem, not the rapists. That's wrong. Why make this ad as opposed to making ads saying "Don't get drunk and take advantage of women, ya prick." I mean, imagine if you were raped while drunk and then someone said it was your fault. How would you respond? All you were doing was having a typical fun night out. It's the rapists fault for raping you, not the other way around. Yes, you should always take precautions to protect yourself, but isn't always walking around in fear of rape counterproductive to having a fun night out? Should you not party on the grounds that you might be raped, just like you shouldn't drive a car in case a drunk driver hits you? Of course not.

Rape is the rapist's fault. Target your ads at them, not the victims.
Also everything she just said.
 

AT God

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I don't see this as sexist, but they raise a good point. The ad does seem to imply it was the person's fault, or that the perpetrator wasn't at fault, the friends made her drunk and vulnerable. It is striking and draws attention to the cause, so its message probably absorbs in to most people, but looking critically it does seem to be flawed. Seems like the kind of thing a shady business man would use to trick the public, except as far as I can tell it was made with good intent.
 

estoria-etnia

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The ad is victim blaming. It's saying that the responsibility for not being raped lies with the victim and not on the one who takes advantage of someone whose judgement is impaired and cannot say no. It is NEVER the fault of a rape victim that they got raped. No, it's the fault of the rapist who made the conscious decision that it was a good idea.