So according to some feminists, this anti-rape ad campaign is sexist

Niall Pitcher

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MEANWHILE IN SURREY, ENGLAND
... Bugger, whats that white slime dripping off Cheeky Tykes Nursery? Speaking of that, where did all these super deformed babies come from? D:
 

urahara75

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Valanthe said:
That was the first thing that caught my eye too, not sure if that's necessarily a bad thing though. Definitely feels a little awkward, but these ads are supposed to be placed in public areas, and are competing for our short attention spans against hundreds of other ads you'll see every day, they have to be a bit edgy to stand out.
Which is why it would have been a better(?) idea to actively make the shot more visceral, dirty, and (frankly) visually stark to drive the point information into viewers' minds. It's simple logic, really -- which ad would you be more likely to "take to heart"? An arguably glamourised shot of some sub-120 lb./50 kg., 20s/30s-ish woman's clean lower half in a clean stall, posed like some legging or shoe model? (OR) A somber shot of said woman who's consumed more than a caesar salad and Red Bull in the past week, undergarments that DON'T look like they just popped out of the wash, floor with evidence of actual foot traffic within the past hour, and with visible dirt/grime and bruising of her lower extremities?
 

Simriel

The Count of Monte Cristo
Dec 22, 2008
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balanovich said:
Jennacide said:
8 pages in. I hope by now someone has educated the OP about how misguided his anger is. The campaign is less about being sexist, and more of just fucking stupid. It's redirecting the blame from the source, which is the problem.
There's no blame! none what so ever.
It's a warning against being so drunk you can't help yourself.

When you say "The campaign is less about being sexist", which campaign are you talking about ? The feminist's is all about sexism.... and the Rape-preventing ad is in no way about sexism.... So what do you mean ?
#You obviously don't get the psychology behind this. The blame is SELF blame. They see things like this and go 'Oh... Well I could have stopped it if I'd done X, or Y so its my fault' which increases the emotional damage and pressure even more.
 

omega 616

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Joshic Shin said:
You are saying that they were asking for it though. That's the point of your preceding text, that since they did all those things they should have known better.

Let's go back to that robbery example though. If I leave my front door unlock, that does not mean you can just walk into my house, that is still a crime. Do I now have to lock ever door, every window, and secure every possible avenue of entrance into my house to fit your idea of doing what I should to avoid being robbed? Of course not, robbery is robbery, no matter the circumstances. One is a little dumber than the other, sure, but it doesn't mean we laugh in the face of the person who was just robbed.

So, a woman goes drinking with her friends. She gets really drunk and one of her guy friends decides that this is his chance to get it with her. She is too drunk to realize what is going on and we have a potential rape. That, Omega616, is how most rapes happen. Most rapists are friends of the victim, not some stranger in a dark alley turned on by the girl's "obviously asking for it" clothing.
Well thanks for telling me my own point, I thought I would have known what I was saying but apparently I am wrong ... I had no clue what my own point actually was, so thanks for clearing that up for me! You are such a big help ....

How much of a moron do you think I am? Do you think, I think women put on there rape outfit, put there rape make and perfume on, slip into the "rape me" mentality and go out looking to be raped?

What I am saying is they get all dressed up, tease guys, get into a vulnerable state all the while thinking "I will never be raped, it will never happen to me".

You should lock all your doors and windows before going out, if it makes it harder to get in then there is less chance a robber will rob you. I lock all my doors and windows even if I am only going outside for 2 minutes.

Nice to know you do research into rape and what thought and how must rapes happen ...

Labyrinth said:
Let me extend that analogy to show you the problem with it.

"So you were walking at night."
"Yes."
"Wearing a rolex"
"Yes."
"With someone you'd met at a bar and had been talking to for a while."
"Yes."
"They saw what was in your wallet when you were buying drinks?"
"Well, yeah?"
"So why were you surprised when this person you met mugged you? I mean, you should've been more careful."

You see, the vast majority, 70-80 or so % of sexual assaults occur when the perpetrator knows the victim. This can be met at a party, known for years, someone the perpetrator cares for etc. Hell, it can happen within marriages because consent is never automatic.

The reason that feminists have a problem with this as victim blaming is that it doesn't address the root of the problem, which is a wildly unhealthy attitude to consent especially among young people. We've had the "no is no" campaign for a while which is good, but it needs to extend to "yes is yes, and only yes is yes." Not silence, not begruding acquiescence because of perceived favours owed, not semi-conscious quavering. Yes. Consistent, happy and persistent yes, however that is communicated throughout all of the proceedings. That yes does not have to be verbal, it can be communicated through eager and willing participation, it doesn't have to be phrased like that, it can be negotiated beforehand then maintained by the opportunity to use a safe word if that consent is withdrawn, but communication is essential whichever way.

That add says "She couldn't say no." What it should say was "She didn't say yes." This goes for all people involved. There was a case a few years back in Australia where a woman was gang raped in a hotel room. She believes she did say no at one point, drunkenly, passing in and out of consciousness. They didn't stop. This was a football team and became a massive scandal because it laid bare a very problematic culture in the sport and in the wider community.

Personally I don't understand the appeal. Sex when semi-conscious cannot be as good as sex when entirely conscious with eager participants. Ad campaigns doing this are much harder because unless it's a date-rape drug or something similar, I doubt anyone goes out to a party with the idea of "Yeahhhh, I'm gonna totally rape someone tonight. It'll be awesome." The ambiguity is the issue for all parties involved. If people communicate better about consent and are aware of these issues it will mean that there's less fear about becoming a victim, less fear about becoming a perpetrator, fewer difficult and ambiguous cases, and a much healthier culture all around.
That wasn't extending it, it was changing it ... from a robbed house to a mugging, that is one unlucky guy! Robbed and mugged on the same day!

I am not a mugger or raper but it seems pretty fucking stupid to do either to somebody you spend a lot of time with or know. I know, I know you can't be that smart if you rape or rob but this "lets get to know my victim" rather than the "snatched handbag" approach is super stupid.

You are much more likely to be ID'd if you know the person you harm, instead of saying he was a dark haired, white guy, with an athletic build and southern accent or a "I dunno, it all happened so fast", you have Brad who lives in the same dorm and is in your psych class ....

I know the silence of the lambs "No. We begin by coveting what we see every day" can apply but raping the girl you have been friend-zoned by is like taking the phrase "fighting fire with fire" too seriously.

Does everybody do research into rape? 'cos I find that a little worrying, to be honest ...

My best guess as to why guys rape is 'cos girls control sex, it's not very often a guy will turn down sex but girls are always turning guys down. Rape is a way to get control of sex and after so many times of choking the chicken and being turned down by girls, he might take the girls decision away.

That is my best guess and I am not doing any research into it 'cos it isn't worth it.
 

CaptainKarma

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Matthew94 said:
So this ad says that if she gets shitfaced and fucks a guy but later regrets it it's his fault and he is a rapist?

That's fucking stupid
Are you seriously saying this? That's not what it's saying. Nobody is saying that, because that situation is so fucking rare compared to rape.
 

CaptainKarma

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Revolutionaryloser said:
i think the real issue is that it's a pretty shitty ad. i wouldn't say it's being sexist as just being patronizing to it's target i.e. women. "what's that? you got yourself raped? silly woman. next time don't get so drunk and make sure your friends take better care of you."

anyway,just because one person on the Internet thought something was offensive doesn't really justify this being worth discussing. for all we know that might just be your typical paranoid conpiracy theorist. i'm pretty sure that is the case anyway.

so in my opinion, try making a less shitty poster that doesn't make whoever looks at it feel a little dumber.
If you're being patronising to one specific demographic like that it's pretty much sexism. And the issue here isn't offence, it's the mindset and culture that this advert is maintaining.

It's one thing for a poster to blame women for drinking and getting themselves raped. It's another when we have rape victims sex lives getting dissected in court. When their clothes and inebriation are used against them. When a court concludes that a woman could not have been raped because she was wearing fucking skinny jeans
 

CaptainKarma

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James Crook said:
Feminism is like misogyny, but the other way around... androgyny?
Anyways, I rest my case that parity should be the standard.
The word you're looking for is misandry. It's also wrong. There are flaws in feminism sure, in the 70s bits of it were racist, bits of it now are still transphobic. But don't paint the entire movement as a bunch of manhaters, that's just dishonest.

Yes, parity is the end goal. But calling it that shifts the focus away from where the problems are. It's like colour-blindness, for your average cis-het-white-male you're privileged enough that you don't need to make the distinction. But the actual minorities...not so much.
 

FamoFunk

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I see where she's coming from.

I mean it's never the victims fault, but the ad kinda makes it look like it's the Woman's fault for getting drunk (which they, like Men are allowed to do) like Women are asking to be raped because they want a drink?
 

Callate

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peruvianskys said:
John Funk said:
ITT mostly-privileged males misunderstand rape culture.

Rape is never the victim's fault. Prevention starts by changing how we men treat women, not by trying to control how women dress and act.
Perfect!

I'm tired of people saying, "Men already know not to rape, we don't need to tell them." If that were the case, then women wouldn't get raped. Obviously quite a few men think it's a perfectly fine thing to do, considering one out of every four women are raped in their lives. If men didn't need to be taught about consent and respect and all that, then there wouldn't be rape!
...Did you sleep through the "Drug War", by any chance...?
 

TheMadJayWoman

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I'm glad to see this thread seems to have maintained a reasonable discussion throughout...

I think the site offers a valid perspective, but I'm not in total agreement with them. We need education that teaches people not to rape (and here I assume we mean the party boy who doesn't understand lack of the ability to consent also means "no" - I don't know how you educate psychopaths), but we also need to tech young women to be responsible. When binge drinking is an ever increasing problem among college age women, it's just as important to stress the danger of such behaviour.

I'm a woman, I enjoyed drinking with my friends while at university, and I still enjoy going out from time to time. I know not maintaining a certain level of caution leaves me open to a number of risks (everything from poor judgment in the simplest day to day activities to DUI, etc.). So I stay with my friends, look out for everyone in my group, I don't accept drinks from strangers, don't walk to my car alone, and most importantly, I don't get so black-out drunk that I can't judge a situation or even have the ability to say no.

We don't blame children who are victims of sexual abuse, but we still try teach them to avoid potential dangers - how is this that different?

To use a LaPaglian metaphor, we don't blame victims of other forms of assault - if an aggressor is out to attack, there's not much you can do to stop them. But there are a few things you can do to make yourself less attractive to predators. If we value ourselves, we should make some effort not to put ourselves in harm's way.

I'm not looking to blame the victim, but I'd feel better if we were raising a generation of women to allow less opportunities to become victims.
 

Lug100

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usmarine4160 said:
Speaking about the ad, is it still date rape if you go home with someone? Doesn't the date part end at that point?
Theres always room for argument on that, it really depends on the situation.
My opinion on it is, if your both sober and she's obviously will to go back with you/take you back, than no, thats just pulling,
if your both hammered and shes willing etc, then it would be sexist to say the guy could be the only one to be considerd a rapist, so its just sort of even.
However if one of you is off your head, and the other is kinda sober (this works both ways people, dont want to be sexist now do we? ;-) ) the it would be considerd taking advantage and in most cases sate rape, especially if you went out with the intention of getting the other drunk.
 

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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darkfox85 said:
I feel much of your ire against my post is essentially repeating the virtues of a preventative measure in the form of a public service. Now, the OP?s advert will definitely do more harm than good.
Now, see this right here -- you just said, "I know you just made a big old argument about how this won't do more harm than good, and rather than actually address your points, I'll simply say it definitely will do more harm than good."

That's called "begging the question" or "claiming the consequent," or what you like. It's when one person makes claim A, supported by evidence... A. That's right, the proof for their claim is the claim itself. And when someone shoots down evidence A, here's claim A to act as a... counter argument?

No, it doesn't work like that. You've claimed "it will do more harm than good." I provided a thorough analysis of why that is not, and indeed cannot be the case, complete with sound reasoning... and your response? "Well, it will definitely cause more harm than good."

These signs do not suggest that in failing to do these things it?s your fault and it can be used in court against you (however, admittedly tangentially.) I do think this advert is a bad thing because these are not the same things. I?m sorry but you ARE over simplifying.
1. You're not sorry. 2. You're wrong. You're putting intent where there is none, and you're ignoring the intent that is there. This ad does not, in any way/shape/form/perception, make the claim that if bad things happen, it is the FAULT of the victim. The ad simply points out that there are some things we can do, as friends, to help keep bad things from happening to each other.

Why? Because we're friends, and will listen to each other. What am I going to do, follow you and politely ask the rapist not to rape you (You know, to avoid "putting the blame on you")? No. Because he won't listen to me. He's a rapist.

So, before you can go any further, you need to provide clear support for your claim that this advertisement specifically and directly states that any resulting rape is the express fault of the victim. If you can provide no such support (spoiler alert: You can't.), this claim is inadmissible.

... but in this case, with this crime, the crime of sexual assault; it will do more harm than good.
This claim is still completely and totally unsubstantiated. You've provided no evidence and no clear rationale. You've simply said this over and over.

Rape is a much thornier issue than theft or burglary or many others.
So? It doesn't exempt the handling of rape from "reason" and "logic." An ounce of prevention is worth an infinite amount of prosecution.

It?ll make people not want to report the rape because the advert indirectly implies that it?s the victims fault for not taking the proper precautions. This won?t happen with other crimes. Not to mention, this crime is as personal as you can get.
Again, a false claim, made with no evidence or support. It'll "make" people do nothing. It'll show them something they might consider when they're out with the girls -- Hmm, Jenny's pretty drunk, and she's looking like she wants to go home with that guy. Let's go talk her out of this, because I know I would feel awful if that guy did anything bad to her.

Nowhere in this process does anyone say, "What? You got drunk and went home with him, you deserve what you got." In fact, the ad specifically makes it clear that, in this hypothetical, she was unable to fight him off. She was powerless in that situation. That's often how rape occurs, after the attacker somehow incapacitates the victim.

So the advertisement is saying, "Rather than waiting until you're in a situation where all your power has been removed, wouldn't it be better to take some steps while you still can?" If someone rapes you, he's still a filthy rapist that deserves everything the law can throw at you -- but no one is debating that.

What we're all saying is, "You can send the guy to the goddamned electric chair, but that won't make the rape victim any less RAPED." So our energy is better spent showing the reasonable, law-abiding folks what they can do, rather than waiting for the crime to occur simply because we're too weak-willed to say, "Here's some stuff you can do to prevent it."

Throughout your repetitive rebuttal...
Hypocrisy is a drug. Kick the habit. My response wasn't a tenth as repetitive as your original diatribe.

... you danced around the fact that most rapists are already known by the victim but instead seem to assume they are all the psychotic type that I have mentioned.
How, where, and when? You can't provide a single bit of evidence to support this claim. You can't quote a single passage from my response that would indicate that I'm even considering the "psychotic type."

You?re still not seeing the full picture of rape.
The kind of person who thinks they know what a person is saying or thinking or believing or "seeing," that's exactly the kind of person who thinks it's okay to rape someone. Just so you're aware. This isn't even nearly the first time you've told other people what they think or what they know.

But you?re right when saying that ?This particular ad campaign isn't aiming to prevent every type of rape ever.? But it fails to address the vast majority of rapes which makes the damn ad pretty damn ineffective.
Again, no sources to back up your claim. No logic or reason to support what you're saying. Rape during which one person takes advantage of a drunk other person is extremely common. In fact, if you'll do your own research, it's one of the most common types among the unreported rapes, because the victim feels it could be "impossible" to prove.

Women don't generally go home from a bar/club/house party with a stranger. They do so with someone they are acquainted with, someone with enough familiarity to be able to take advantage of the situation. That's exactly what this ad is dealing with.

I?ve supported preventative measures like this against the psychotic type but ultimately adds like this don?t do much good except tell anyone who reads them that thanks to the circumstances not being followed it?s the victims fault.
Eighth time you've made this claim, without any evidence of any kind to back it up. Repetitive?

I?m thinking of the sheer volume of rapists that don?t meet punishment or are even ever held accountable for their heinous crime.
If someone is charged and acquitted, guess what? They are not a rapist. If they are found not guilty, they are not guilty in the eyes of the law. You can't just take it upon yourself to say, "Of course he did it, just look at him!" Again, that mentality of being able to assume "what type" of person someone is with minimal evidence... well, that's exactly how the rapists act, isn't it? ("Oh, she's a total slut, she totally wanted it, no matter what she says.")

But if I want to scuttle myself I do know a way. How many wrongful convictions are worth risking in an attempt to get as many smug opportunistic violators to respect the law? This part of my argument can be shaken here and if you want to hammer the point home in a way I haven?t thought of, this is an opportunity. I welcome it.
Cute attempt at a reverse strawman, but this is far from the only hole in your reasoning. You still base your entire case on two completely unsubstantiated claims:

1. That this ad is specifically and directly blaming the victim.
2. That this ad "will do more harm than good."

It?s been stated over and over that most rapists might not understand what they?re doing is rape.
It's also been "stated over and over" that the chupacabra terrorizes Mexican goat flocks. But we tend to ignore such claims because no evidence has been provided to substantiate it. We're not here to do your homework for you.

Okay I will admit I used the word ?evidence? when I should?ve used the word ?support? (or perhaps something else.) All those circumstances that surround a rape could cast suspicion on the victim. This doesn?t happen with other crimes. Hence the low conviction rate. Rapists are walking out scott-free and all we?re doing is making potential victims more paranoid they did something wrong.
1. Yes, it happens with other crimes. If you kill a man, but it comes out in court that it was in self-defense, that's putting the "suspicion on the victim." Stuff like that happens all the time. It's called digging for the truth. Without tough questions like this, our court system would simply be an "Accuse and Send to Jail" system.

2. If they are not found guilty, understand this, they are not rapists. Otherwise, you're basically under the belief that our legal system means NOTHING -- and that would include when it works in favor of your position.

You want a REAL preventative measure in a public service advertisement? It would be saying things a long the lines of telling potential victims that saying no even to your spouse or partner means no and refusal to hear it is rape,
Process this for a moment:

1. If a rapist is aware that what he is doing is rape, he won't give one dirty damn that a poster says, "Don't do it." He'll just go about his business because he already doesn't care.

2. If a rapist is not aware that what he is doing is rape, he won't give one dirty damn that a poster says, "Don't do it," because he'll assume that poster must be talking to someone else. Why? Because "Hey, I'M not a rapist."


or that you shouldn?t let someone subtly bully, threaten or pressure you into doing something you don?t want to.
Oh, I see. So if I'm bullied, threatened, or pressured into doing something I don't want to do, I "let" it happen? How dare you blame me for what they made me do?

It?s a fake term to counter all these ridiculous digs at such a complex and varied ideology as feminism. Hell I disagree with most of it myself but I?m not gonna slide the whole thing into the abyss. Further, I really don?t understand how you think I think people are secretly hoping to get raped from that section.
1. The title says "according to some feminists." And the site being linked? FEMINISTING.COM. Not an inaccurate statement. Indeed, some feminists (namely those behind this site) apparently think this campaign is sexist, or at least "anti-victim."

2. What else could you have meant by saying "who are so very quick to remind everyone that women can rape (before wetting their lips)?" Don't insult our intelligence, we know exactly what you were saying with this.

And those ?conjectures? about sexual assault playing differently on the minds of different genders? They are not conjectures. They are facts. Talk to men. Talk to women. It comes out very easily and openly and honestly.
Conjectures don't become facts until evidence is provided. You're assuming you know the minds of all, or at least most, men and women. Assume. Conjecture. Empty claims.

For the TL;DR:

1. You still have not supported your claim that this ad will specifically "do more harm than good." You've been nursemaided through the good it can do, and have yet to provide any specific example of harm it could cause.

2. Simply saying, "It'll make the victim feel blamed," is not "support." It's an assumption based on your personal feelings on the matter, which you are projecting onto the whole of the human race. Nothing in the ad says the least little thing about blame, but simply says, "Here's something to think about while you're out with friends, because it's totally possible to prevent SOME awful things by thinking ahead."

3. Your "good rapists" don't realize they are rapists, right? So they are going to ignore posters that are talking to rapists, because they think you're talking to/about someone else. Such posters would be wasted effort, and would serve no purpose whatsoever.

4. Telling someone what they can do to prevent bad things from happening to them is never, ever, ever, ever, ever the same thing as blaming them when bad things happen. They are not the same, and you haven't provided the slightest bit of support for your claim that they are.

Address these four things, and maybe you can keep up the appearance that you're looking for any sort of discussion that uses logic or reason. Fail to address these four specific flaws in your post, and you don't have a leg to stand on. Best of luck.
 

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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TheMadJayWoman said:
I'm glad to see this thread seems to have maintained a reasonable discussion throughout...

I think the site offers a valid perspective, but I'm not in total agreement with them. We need education that teaches people not to rape (and here I assume we mean the party boy who doesn't understand lack of the ability to consent also means "no" - I don't know how you educate psychopaths), but we also need to tech young women to be responsible. When binge drinking is an ever increasing problem among college age women, it's just as important to stress the danger of such behaviour.

I'm a woman, I enjoyed drinking with my friends while at university, and I still enjoy going out from time to time. I know not maintaining a certain level of caution leaves me open to a number of risks (everything from poor judgment in the simplest day to day activities to DUI, etc.). So I stay with my friends, look out for everyone in my group, I don't accept drinks from strangers, don't walk to my car alone, and most importantly, I don't get so black-out drunk that I can't judge a situation or even have the ability to say no.

We don't blame children who are victims of sexual abuse, but we still try teach them to avoid potential dangers - how is this that different?

To use a LaPaglian metaphor, we don't blame victims of other forms of assault - if an aggressor is out to attack, there's not much you can do to stop them. But there are a few things you can do to make yourself less attractive to predators. If we value ourselves, we should make some effort not to put ourselves in harm's way.

I'm not looking to blame the victim, but I'd feel better if we were raising a generation of women to allow less opportunities to become victims.
Thank you. Agreed in total.

(I will say, though, how well would a poster campaign targeting the "I don't know I'm a rapist" sort work? If they genuinely don't know they're rapists, don't you think they'll just ignore the poster -- because clearly, you're talking to someone else, like, y'know, a rapist? That kind of education needs to be far more direct and specific than a poster campaign.)
 

Nocola

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I'm confused, can someone please help me? Maybe I am grossly misunderstanding the poster but...

If a girl gets drunk, and hooks up with some random guy, are they saying that's rape? Because as far as I know it's not. In fact that would make most guys rapists.

If I punch a guy out while I'm drunk, I'm responsible for my actions under the law, it's assault. In the eyes of the law, the fact that I was drunk has nothing to do with it. I decided to punch a guy, right? So if a girl is drunk and goes home with a guy, in the eyes of the law shouldn't she have made a conscious decision to go with a guy? Ergo not rape?

PLEASE someone explain this to me...
 

Biodeamon

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I agree with this completely. Rape happens no matter how much ugly and how bad people want to stop it. they should tell women how to protect themselves.

this campaign is like telling people not to destabalize the economy. It will happen, the real thing to do is how to tell people from preventing it from getting worse.
 

Cephei Mordred

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I've spent a fair amount of time reading feminist blogs, so I can tell you why they differentiate this from other things such as leaving the door unlocked:

There is a lot of political and social issues that come up with rape, that don't come up with other things.

It would seem that a woman is often judged by how "slutty" or "provocative" she is when rape goes to trial, and that's if they even make it to trial to begin with. There is a lot of shaming and blaming going on with rape, tied into the idea that women should be required to fit a certain view of 'propriety' which is seen as patriarchial.

In other words, on top of being raped, she's treated like she deserved it for not being a good girl who lives to please her father and her husband. For being how she wants to be, instead of how others want her to be.

These sociopolitical issues that women face are not to be ignored or underestimated.

And, this is in the USA, where we actually have some semblance of treating women like human beings.

So, if you believe that women should be nuns and housewives forever, you all just go right ahead and say she was stupid to leave the door unlocked.
 

willingdruid

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
willingdruid said:
Here is a handy video to help all of you who are confused about the humble rapists motivations:
They should use that EP Anal **** did with The Raunchous Brothers in stuff like anti rape and womens rights campaigns.
The Raunchous Brothers did have some pretty killer rapetastic tunes, what ever happened to them?
They were supposed to come out with 'Hail Metal... Destroy Faggotry' ages ago.