So according to some feminists, this anti-rape ad campaign is sexist

MasochisticAvenger

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Nocola said:
MasochisticAvenger said:
Nocola said:
MasochisticAvenger said:
Nocola said:
I think that it is entirely the rapists fault if a girl gets raped, BUT there is definitely some good in teaching young girls that hey, maybe it's not a good idea to get black out drunk at a club.

No rapists = no rape, that's a given. If the guy wasn't gonna rape the girl the issue would be solved, but purposely getting yourself absolutely destroyed isn't gonna help your odds. Does that make sense?

It's not blaming the victim to teach girls how to protect themselves from rapists.
I think it is entirely the girl's fault if she chooses to get drunk enough that she would agree to have sex with someone she really didn't want to have sex with. Really, it's disgusting that "rape" can just be used as a justification by women to remove blame for their own actions. That shit really needs to stop.

Given that we hold people accountable for their actions while drunk in every other department, I really don't see how women keep getting away with this.

Say I got drunk, and gambled all my money away at the Casino. Would I be able to go back to that casino the next day and say "Look, I know I lost all my money here, but I was drunk at the time so give it back". Of course not!
I think there's a difference between going home with a guy, sleeping with him and regretting it in the morning - and rape. But in the situation you detailed I agree.
Which is exactly the situation the ad is detailing. The ad is telling people to watch out for their friends when they drink, but a lot of people here can't see past "TELLING THE WOMAN TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS WHEN SHE GOES OUT!? YOU'RE BLAMING WOMAN FOR GETTING RAPED!!!!!!!"

Is it really fair to compare someone who forces a woman to the ground, forcibly removes her clothes and shoves his penis into her while she begs him to stop with someone who had sex with a drunk girl? Because that's basically what this is doing here.
I thought the ad was detailing a girl that got forced to the ground and raped? Or is it detailing a girl that gets drunk and sleeps with a random guy, because the first situation is rape. The second one is a drunken one night stand.
Having you read the slightly smaller text near the bottom? It says:

"When your friends drink, they can end up making bad decisions. Like going home with someone they don't know very well.

Decisions like that leave them vulnerable to dangers like date rape. Help your friends stay in control and stay safe."
 

Scars Unseen

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FamoFunk said:
I see where she's coming from.

I mean it's never the victims fault, but the ad kinda makes it look like it's the Woman's fault for getting drunk (which they, like Men are allowed to do) like Women are asking to be raped because they want a drink?
Except that while both women and men are allowed to get drunk, if they both get drunk and then have sex, the woman is legally regarded as a victim and the man is legally regarded as a rapist. And that's despite the fact that they did the exact same thing. How's that for equality? As if a man has never regretted having sex while he was drunk.
 

AndyFromMonday

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Batou667 said:
The idea of a man being kicked in the nuts. They laugh their asses off at that.
Now that's just not fair. Feminists are perfectly reasonable, that's why they assume only men are capable of rape.
 

Jesus Phish

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Agreed with the OP and several others here.

There's very little point in having ad campaigns telling people not to do things like murder, rape, rob cars or anything else. It's a much better idea to try warn the victims to be more careful BEFORE the event happens.

For example, you're not going to go into a subway that's known for pickpockets and put up signs saying "no pickpocketing!". You'll put up signs warning people to keep their phones and wallets close to them and make sure they pay attention to them.

I don't think the ad is blaming women on getting raped or that it's sending a message that it's the fault of the victim.
 

Stu the Pirate

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The argument that feminists make of a rape culture blaming the victim is flawed in that a poster campaign wouldn't really work as well on rapists as their intended victims. That's my personal opinion but I'm willing to bet any objective study would show that to be the case.

There's also the case of numbers. Potential rape victims constitute more of the population than potential rapists since more than half of the population of the US (the country of the campaign) are female and US law defines rape as only applicable to females.

That being said and held as true for the sake of argument, logic follows that targeting the larger, saner segment of the population with knowledge on how to avoid this happening makes more sense than targeting the smaller segment whom poster campaigns probably won't work on.

Right?
 

LadyRhian

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Monoochrom said:
LadyRhian said:
Really? Have you been reading this thread? People have been bringing up the issue of what the woman is wearing when it comes to her being raped, along with her being drunk, to blame her for the rape. This was post #13 on the thread:
Look, a crime is a crime and it will always be the criminals fault. BUT FUCKING YES if you challenge it, it is your ''fault'' aswell, atleast to a degree. If you throw all precaution out of the window because you shouldn't have to take precautions, you are stupid. I'm sorry that that isn't how the world works, but you're going to have to deal with that, you have no choice.

So, if a woman is wearing revealing clothing, drunk off her ass and hanging around at a place where people tend to look for casual sex, her pretending she was too damn stupid to realize this before does not absolve her of all responsability for herself. Did she ask to be raped? No, ofcourse not. But she sure didn't do what she could to sidestep the possibility either. And no, that doesn't mean don't go out or don't dress sexy, it means, don't get drunk to the point that you are passing out and don't dress like a hooker, and if you truely must do those things, atleast go at with friends that will watch your back.

And before you bring that stupid bullshit up again, it's a sex crime, clothes matter.
It's not about sex. It involves someone forced into sex against their will, but that's not what fuels rape. It's power.
 

Labyrinth

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Partezan said:
The basic feminist logic is that if a woman goes home with a guy while she is drunk and decides to have sex with him while she is drunk then it's the guys fault for taking advantage of her, but if a guy who is drunk takes home a girl who is drunk and decides to have sex with her it's the guys fault for taking advantage of her...

So basically it's the guys fault no matter what. Girl goes to a guys hotel room at 3am in the morning to take drugs and drink then ends up being "raped" It's the guys fault.

I say, follow the feminist advice and leave the stupid drunk bitches on the side of the road to get run over by a bus or get taken home by a real rapist, it's not worth the risk anymore to even be alone with a girl because they will cry rape on you.
Nope. I'm kind of sick of explaining this, but here goes again.

The feminist attitude is that consent is consent, that all parties must give aware, sustained consent for any given sex to be willing. That means if a man is passed out drunk on a bed and gets fucked he didn't give his consent and it was rape. Whether he perceives it this way or not is his call.

The descrepancy above is NOT the result of feminism, but the result of gender norms which in our culture say that for men sex is something great to be had at every opportunity as a matter of personal pride and social position. If it was sex with an "ugly chick" then it becomes an amusing story with the mates later. Women however get slapped with a wonderful thing known as slutshaming where the culture degrades and insults us for being sexual beings. It's also known as a madonna/whore complex virgin/whore complex, etc. This means that women are made to feel guilty for sex. It's not something that can be passed off unless there's been a radical rejection of standard socialisation.

Additionally, you claim that women who get drunk are unanimously stupid. You can't claim that. You have no idea the circumstances of the people in question, and naivety is no grounds for reducing the level of expected consent. As I've said before, our culture needs to develop a more neuanced, more communicate understanding of consent where yes and only yes is consent, and everything else gives reason to pause. That's a feminist attitude, by the way.

omega 616 said:
Research hey? Here's some.

This [http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/FEMVIED.PDF] 1995 US study of rape was done through victim surveys, particularly because it examined intimate partner violence and violence done by those known to the victim. It's a methodological approach which tries to avoid the problems with taking stats directly from police reports. "Approximately 75 percent of all lone-offender violence against women and 45 percent of violence that involved multiple offenders was perpetrated by offenders whom the victim knew", and "29% of all violence agaisnt women by a lone perpetrator" was done by someone the victim was intimate with[footnote]Taken from abstract.[/footnote]. Women were found to be "more likely to be victimized by known offenders than by strangers"[footnote]Page 3[/footnote] as compared to men. Here [http://www.rainn.org/statistics] are some more statistics.

You can make all the claims you like about how this is a stupid pattern of selection. It doesn't reflect what actually happens.

As for your claim that women control sex... Hmmm. I can't say I agree. While the standard heterosexual narrative is that a man approaches a woman for sex then the man who made the decision to approach or not approach has some degree of power. Ask any non-normatively attractive woman for some greater detail on that one. Women are posited as the gatekeepers of sexuality because that's a fundamental part of the madonna/whore complex I mentioned above. In addition masculinity is almost always constituted as having power and dominance in sexual activities, the more sexually successful a man is perceieved to be, the more masculine he is. Only when heterosexual of course because of our rather unfortunate approach to that. Want some research for that? Here [https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=127046] is the abstract for a study looking at rapists attitude to rape, and it's primarily focused upon masculinity and how that relates to sexual power.

I could go on. And on. And on, I assure you. I have a wealth of research material at my back from peer review journals.
 

The_Evermind

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I'm not sure I like the wording of the add itself, "She didn't want to do it, but she couldn't say no." Now is it saying "she couldn't say no" as in she would have refused under normal circumstances but in this case was to drunk to realize the mistake? Or maybe it is she wanted to say no but was passed out from alcohol (or maybe even the rapist drugging her) and becuase she was unconcious couldn't say no? Or posssibly even she tried saying no but the man, possibly because he was particularly drunk, raped her? Those are all very different takes on the general message of "Try not to let your friends get really drunk and do stupid shit." Also the idea of making an anti-rape add sexually appealing seems like a bad idea.
 

Labyrinth

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Nocola said:
EDIT: On further examination of the ad, it seems you're right. It's depicting a drunken one night stand, and once again I am confused. That's not rape. That's just 2 people hooking up... Albeit, that's stupid behaviour and it shouldn't happen, but it's not rape in the sense that she was forced or coerced into sex.
The important phrase to look at is "She couldn't say no." I think it should be phrased as "she didn't say yes" personally for reasons I detail here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.334108.13514535] but that aside, the inability to give clear non-consent is an important differentiating point between "I got drunk and fucked a guy." and "I got drunk and didn't say yes and he just went ahead and did it anyway."

I had a friend who was raped at a party by a guy she'd previously refused. She was semi-conscious on the couch of a house she was living in at the time (the location of the party). She felt that there was no point in saying no because it wouldn't make a difference. That's still rape because she did not give consent.
 

Goldeneye1989

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Newtonyd said:
Vault101 said:
I dont see how revealing cloths or the "leading guys on" is going to encourage rape...if hes gonna rape you...he's gonna rape you becuase your in a vulnerable position (alone..dark ally or totally sloshed and unable to think)
Nuh-uh, put two drunk women in a dark alley. One wearing a turtleneck sweater and the other wears a miniskirt, thong, tubetop. Add drunken asshole. Which one do you think he's gonna go for?

Not every rapist goes out at night thinking: "Okay, tonight's the night I'm gonna rape some girl." Things like rape, murder, and assault are often very emotional, 'heat of the moment' deals. As disgusting as it may sound, seeing a woman in revealing clothing translates to "She's asking for it" in a criminal mind. It places the blame for criminal actions on someone else so the criminal feels guilt-free.
Two drunk woman, you want to know which one he is going for? .... It dosent matter, he has all the power in the world at that point. If you think people only rape others just because they are sexy your wrong. So far wrong. It's about power and dominance, Rape isint lust. Rape is power. The person will target one because that person knows they have more control over the victims.
 

Scars Unseen

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LadyRhian said:
Monoochrom said:
LadyRhian said:
Really? Have you been reading this thread? People have been bringing up the issue of what the woman is wearing when it comes to her being raped, along with her being drunk, to blame her for the rape. This was post #13 on the thread:
Look, a crime is a crime and it will always be the criminals fault. BUT FUCKING YES if you challenge it, it is your ''fault'' aswell, atleast to a degree. If you throw all precaution out of the window because you shouldn't have to take precautions, you are stupid. I'm sorry that that isn't how the world works, but you're going to have to deal with that, you have no choice.

So, if a woman is wearing revealing clothing, drunk off her ass and hanging around at a place where people tend to look for casual sex, her pretending she was too damn stupid to realize this before does not absolve her of all responsability for herself. Did she ask to be raped? No, ofcourse not. But she sure didn't do what she could to sidestep the possibility either. And no, that doesn't mean don't go out or don't dress sexy, it means, don't get drunk to the point that you are passing out and don't dress like a hooker, and if you truely must do those things, atleast go at with friends that will watch your back.

And before you bring that stupid bullshit up again, it's a sex crime, clothes matter.
It's not about sex. It involves someone forced into sex against their will, but that's not what fuels rape. It's power.
That's a gross oversimplification that ignores that, legally, one can rape a woman without knowing it(since drunken sex is considered rape, even if both parties were drunk and consenting at the time). Granted, if we stuck to actual rape instead legal bullshit that actually defies notions of equality, you may be closer to the mark.
 

omega 616

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Labyrinth said:
As for your claim that women control sex... Hmmm. I can't say I agree. While the standard heterosexual narrative is that a man approaches a woman for sex then the man who made the decision to approach or not approach has some degree of power. Ask any non-normatively attractive woman for some greater detail on that one. Women are posited as the gatekeepers of sexuality because that's a fundamental part of the madonna/whore complex I mentioned above. In addition masculinity is almost always constituted as having power and dominance in sexual activities, the more sexually successful a man is perceieved to be, the more masculine he is. Only when heterosexual of course because of our rather unfortunate approach to that. Want some research for that? Here [https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=127046] is the abstract for a study looking at rapists attitude to rape, and it's primarily focused upon masculinity and how that relates to sexual power.

I could go on. And on. And on, I assure you. I have a wealth of research material at my back from peer review journals.
"That is my best guess and I am not doing any research into it 'cos it isn't worth it" ... I bolded the important part ...

Nice 17 year old research, though I didn't bother to read it or your first paragraph 'cos it was about research. I don't care why people rape, the same way I don't care why Shipman killed nearly 200 women.

Women do control sex though, men ask but it is up to the woman to say yay or nay. You never hear a man say "I have a headache". Even an ugly girl can go out and get laid by any drunken fool, you said guys laugh about the ugly chicks they have "done" ... well point proven. If a woman acts slutty she will get sex, without any trouble! If a guy acts slutty he gets pepper sprayed.

In an episode of the walking dead, a guy and a girl are driving along talking about some crap (not romantic or anything) then the girl reaches over and rubs a guys package and then they do it, if that guy reached over and squeezed her boob what do you think would happen? They wouldn't be fucking, that's for sure!

The complex you talked about has nothing to do with rape, seems more of a tangent you went on. Women who care if they are called a slut or a prude need to mature, people will pick any fault you have and smack you round the head with it ... so you sleep with a lot of guys, who cares? So you are a 25 year old virgin, who cares? The vein that's who!

I am 22 years old and never even kissed a girl, Jimmy Carr lost his virginity in his 20's and I bet there are loads more examples.

"the more sexually successful a man is perceieved to be, the more masculine he is" that isn't only part of masculinity, there are other things like muscle definition, how much of a man's man he is, how into sports he is etc. It's like saying "the bigger your bra size the more feminine you are", sure being totally flat isn't very feminine but it's not THE measuring stick. Also if you have the largest boobs in the world (which if I remember right is 74ZZZ) doesn't make you an uber woman, the same as having shagged a porn star amount of women doesn't make you Saxton Hale!

"you claim that women who get drunk are unanimously stupid. You can't claim that" I can ... I actually think you have to be very stupid to even drink alcohol. How much does a popular pint cost? About the same as a 2 LTR bottle of coke, it's super bitter, makes you feel like crap after drinking large amounts, hurts your overall health, causes nothing but problems, can hurt others.

Yeah, drinking is for stupid people! I am biased though.
 

Labyrinth

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omega 616 said:
So you've never so much as kissed someone. Exactly what evidence or experience are you basing your assertions on? Media representations such as that Walking Dead epsiode?

Oh dear, I hope you learn fast, you may be in for a shock.

When sex is something that happens within the body how the body feels becomes very important. It's much easier to separate minor physiological ills from the pleasure when it's something relatively external. Also, in my rather extensive experience, sex when everyone's very keen is far superior to begruding acquiescence to persistance despite not feeling it.

I can only put your apathy to rape reasons down to never encountering it personally or in someone close to you. Lucky you, though I suspect that's more due to not knowing about it than to it having never happened within your personal network. The rest of us care about it because it has massive repercussions for people and for a community. I cannot make you care which is unfortunate because it's blinkered apathy and misguided notions of gender which help perpeptuate rape culture with all the victim blaming and hurt that comes with.
 

balanovich

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Simriel said:
balanovich said:
Jennacide said:
8 pages in. I hope by now someone has educated the OP about how misguided his anger is. The campaign is less about being sexist, and more of just fucking stupid. It's redirecting the blame from the source, which is the problem.
There's no blame! none what so ever.
It's a warning against being so drunk you can't help yourself.

When you say "The campaign is less about being sexist", which campaign are you talking about ? The feminist's is all about sexism.... and the Rape-preventing ad is in no way about sexism.... So what do you mean ?
#You obviously don't get the psychology behind this. The blame is SELF blame. They see things like this and go 'Oh... Well I could have stopped it if I'd done X, or Y so its my fault' which increases the emotional damage and pressure even more.
Actually, I'm quite familiar with sexual victim's guilt. I know the blame is self blame.. what other kind could they be talking about? I simply disagree about there being blame in the ad. I interpret it as a warning, not a as blaming campaign. In my opinion, this campaign does not mention and uses blame in any way.
it's as I said "There's no blame! none what so ever."
It seems it is you that doesn't get what I say.

And by the way, whether a society says rape victims are dirty fucking sluts who deserves or poor innocent victims we should cuddle, does not change much about the victim's guilt... the shame they feel is mostly part of the damage they suffered.
 

FamoFunk

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Scars Unseen said:
FamoFunk said:
I see where she's coming from.

I mean it's never the victims fault, but the ad kinda makes it look like it's the Woman's fault for getting drunk (which they, like Men are allowed to do) like Women are asking to be raped because they want a drink?
Except that while both women and men are allowed to get drunk, if they both get drunk and then have sex, the woman is legally regarded as a victim and the man is legally regarded as a rapist. And that's despite the fact that they did the exact same thing. How's that for equality? As if a man has never regretted having sex while he was drunk.
I completely agree with you, of course Men regret it, I have Male friends who have. And Men do get raped, despite many thinking they don't/can't. Some Woman are viscous, even worse than Males.


I just think the ad is wrong, the way it comes across. As a Women if I saw that ad on a train while travelling into town to get drunk, it does make me feel like I have to be over-responsible and make effort, while the Man doesn't have to do either; because it would be my fault for getting drunk if a Man tried it on.
 

generals3

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I just think the ad is wrong, the way it comes across. As a Women if I saw that ad on a train while travelling into town to get drunk, it does make me feel like I have to be over-responsible and make effort, while the Man doesn't have to do either; because it would be my fault for getting drunk if a Man tried it on.
That's maybe how you'd feel but keep in mind all you get is an ad telling you to be careful while the man risks appearing in front of a court for "rape". And heck the only reason such ads don't exist for men is because there is a myth going around that only women can get raped and that men are always the rapists anyway.
 

Simriel

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balanovich said:
Simriel said:
balanovich said:
Jennacide said:
8 pages in. I hope by now someone has educated the OP about how misguided his anger is. The campaign is less about being sexist, and more of just fucking stupid. It's redirecting the blame from the source, which is the problem.
There's no blame! none what so ever.
It's a warning against being so drunk you can't help yourself.

When you say "The campaign is less about being sexist", which campaign are you talking about ? The feminist's is all about sexism.... and the Rape-preventing ad is in no way about sexism.... So what do you mean ?
#You obviously don't get the psychology behind this. The blame is SELF blame. They see things like this and go 'Oh... Well I could have stopped it if I'd done X, or Y so its my fault' which increases the emotional damage and pressure even more.
Actually, I'm quite familiar with sexual victim's guilt. I know the blame is self blame.. what other kind could they be talking about? I simply disagree about there being blame in the ad. I interpret it as a warning, not a as blaming campaign. In my opinion, this campaign does not mention and uses blame in any way.
it's as I said "There's no blame! none what so ever."
It seems it is you that doesn't get what I say.

And by the way, whether a society says rape victims are dirty fucking sluts who deserves or poor innocent victims we should cuddle, does not change much about the victim's guilt... the shame they feel is mostly part of the damage they suffered.
But this doesn't help. It never DIRECTLY mentions blame, which I already said, your choosing to misinterpret. This pretty much tells a drunk girl, not directly saying 'its your fault' but indirectly, that if she hadn't GOT drunk, yeah she wouldn't have been raped, so its her fault that it happened.