So has anyone seen the Sonic movie?

Batou667

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Drathnoxis said:
Sonic Adventure ends with an entire city being hit by a tidal wave out of nowhere caused by an ancient god. Tens of thousands of people are no doubt dead, with property damage in the billions. Tails, while observing the wreckage: "All's well that ends well, right?"
Coincidentally, I've been replaying the Xbox 360 Sonic releases and had the pleasure of playing that bullshit boss encounter yesterday. I can't disagree with you, that section is, tonally, just nuts; and if it seems jarring to us now, I wonder how it was received when the DX version was released back in 2003, two years after 9/11!

What I think this underlines though, is that Sonic isn't a franchise that has been corrupted or subverted or "lost its way" relatively recently. A more sober assessment would be that Sonic was NEVER a coherent, self-contained franchise - or if it was, that period lasted about three years and the TWO DECADES of subsequent Sonic games have been various degrees of failure at attempting to recapture a winning formula that has since bolted the stable, flown the nest, and which the contemporary game playing public wouldn't want even if you could do the impossible and crystalise it. A bit like the Mario series, every game release is either a Greatest Hits tribute act or else an irrelevant digression.

I learned recently that the entire Knuckles story arc in Sonic and Knuckles (1994), with the Mecha-Robotnik and Super Metal Sonic antagonists, has been rubber-stamped as non-canon by Sega themselves. That's how long it took for the first cracks to appear! Three years.
 

Hawki

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Batou667 said:
They didn't attempt to make this a furry-tastic, canonically accurate retelling of the games, comics or cartoons: phew, bullet dodged.
I'm not sure how that's a good thing.

Yes, the movie's fun, but it's less a Sonic movie and more a roadtrip movie with Sonic and Robotnik in it. If you asked people what they wanted from a Sonic movie, I doubt anyone would nominate a "Sonic comes to Earth" over a movie that mostly takes place in Sonic's own world.

Too much screen time is given to Robotnik's silly homoerotic sub-dom relationship with his henchman; yes, the expanded Sonic universe has often given Robotnik henchmen or an Igor to play off, but this seemed like one of the more unnecessary and flabby parts of the film. Love him or hate him, Carrey is a good enough actor to play the role alone.
Stone isn't going to be ranked high on a henchmen list, but I can appreciate why he's here. As I described in my review, a theme of the film is loneliness, and while Sonic and Robotnik start off in similar places, their arcs involve Sonic opening up to people, while Robotnik constantly self-isolates (berating Stone, assaulting him, even when it's clear the guy likes him as a friend). In the end, Sonic's the one that wins. Not a complex theme, but it's a theme nonetheless.

Batou667 said:
TWO DECADES of subsequent Sonic games have been various degrees of failure at attempting to recapture a winning formula that has since bolted the stable, flown the nest, and which the contemporary game playing public wouldn't want even if you could do the impossible and crystalise it.
To the latter, Sonic Mania. To the former, um, no. Plenty of games in the series have never tried to recapture the formula at all, and frankly, the series would be poorer if they did.
 

Batou667

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Hawki said:
I'm not sure how that's a good thing.

Yes, the movie's fun, but it's less a Sonic movie and more a roadtrip movie with Sonic and Robotnik in it. If you asked people what they wanted from a Sonic movie, I doubt anyone would nominate a "Sonic comes to Earth" over a movie that mostly takes place in Sonic's own world.
I think the fact that they didn't set out to woo the frothing Sonic fandom (a fandom bordering the toxic insanity of Bronies) is an eminently sensible decision. Attempting to marry together all the various bits of canon across three decades of games, three (?) animated series, and the multi-year run of comic books that were released both sides of the Atlantic to make a definitive Sonic movie that is faithful to the source material, is substantial enough for fans and accessible enough for newcomers, would have been a recipe for disaster. Remember even the source material contradicts and retcons itself, frequently! How many Chaos Emeralds are there, for example? What planet is all this set on? What is the name of the recurring antagonist? All of this shifts from game to game and setting to setting. Cutting to the core and making the iconic, recognisable traits of Sonic himself the focus of most of the scenes was arguably the least-bad decision.

Sonic being set on Earth and the animal characters interacting with inexplicably calm humans has been part of the games since 1998. It's not like this film sets precedence.

Stone isn't going to be ranked high on a henchmen list, but I can appreciate why he's here. As I described in my review, a theme of the film is loneliness, ... Not a complex theme, but it's a theme nonetheless.
Yeah, I see why they did it, I just wish they hadn't. Or had handled it better, or at the least more briefly. You make a good point but Carrey could have given just as good a performance yelling at a mute robot minion - or arguing with the voices in his head, for that matter. Slim Robotnik with a full head of hair I could just about buy, Robotnik with a human friend/servant/minion just seemed wrong to me.

Batou667 said:
To the latter, Sonic Mania. To the former, um, no. Plenty of games in the series have never tried to recapture the formula at all, and frankly, the series would be poorer if they did.
I have yet to play Sonic Mania, I know it got some mixed reviews but it certainly seems like the best attempt yet at tapping into the retro formula. As for the more unique Sonic offerings, which ones stand out on your opinion? Because many that tried to reinvent the wheel such as Sonic 2006 went down in flames.
 

Hawki

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Batou667 said:
I think the fact that they didn't set out to woo the frothing Sonic fandom (a fandom bordering the toxic insanity of Bronies)
Y'know, I keep hearing how terrible the Sonic and MLP fanbases are, but I've never seen it myself.

Anyway:

Attempting to marry together all the various bits of canon across three decades of games, three (?) animated series, and the multi-year run of comic books that were released both sides of the Atlantic to make a definitive Sonic movie that is faithful to the source material, is substantial enough for fans and accessible enough for newcomers, would have been a recipe for disaster.
Never said they had to combine all of it. Trust me, I know that wouldn't work, because I tried that for 9 years (ages 7-16), and it was conceptual failure as much as writing failure (shock of all shocks, pre-teens don't do stories well).

How many Chaos Emeralds are there, for example?
7.

The 6 to 7 isn't really a retcon if we accept that the seventh just wasn't present at the time. Apart from that, it's constantly been 7. The only exceptions I can recall are Sonic Championship (where it's 8 for some reason) and Sonic Spinball (which I understand to be in SatAM continuity rather than the games).

What planet is all this set on? What is the name of the recurring antagonist? All of this shifts from game to game and setting to setting.
I know the Mobius/Earth, Robotnik/Eggman stuff, but that's not changing from game to game, it was down to translation issues. Mobius became the name of Sonic's world because of a mistranslation concerning the mobius loops. Robotnik and Eggman are Sega America and Sega Japan calling him different things, and even then, the current standpoint is that his name is Doctor Robotnik, but he calls himself Eggman.

I'm not going to praise Sonic for having the best continuity in the world, but the above issues aren't nearly as intrusive as you say.

Sonic being set on Earth and the animal characters interacting with inexplicably calm humans has been part of the games since 1998. It's not like this film sets precedence.
It's not setting a precedent, but the presence of humans has always been controversial - least in the games. Yes, I know that humans (excluding Robotnik) featured prolifically in various spinoff works, but at the time, for the games specifically, it raised some eyebrows. Certainly it raised some of mine.

But even then, consider the context of the film itself. We get a brief glimpse of South Island, and a brief glimpse of "the Mushroom Planet," both of which are channeling Green Hill Zone and Mushroom Hill Zone (or taking a shot at Mario) respectively. Compared to those environments, Earth is just tame. Part of why, if/when a sequel is made, I'd rather it mostly take place on Sonic's planet. I mean, Tails's words at the end suggest that it will.

Robotnik with a human friend/servant/minion just seemed wrong to me.
Does that include Snively and Grimer?

Batou667 said:
I have yet to play Sonic Mania, I know it got some mixed reviews
https://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-one/sonic-mania

Those aren't "mixed reviews." Sonia Mania is one of the highest ranked games in the series.

Haven't played Mania myself, but the consensus of it being good, if not great, is pretty clear.

As for the more unique Sonic offerings, which ones stand out on your opinion?
If we define "stand out" as "genuinely good" and "aren't the original Genesis games," then I can nominate:

Sonic Riders

Sonic Battle

Sonic Rush

Sonic Rush Adventure

Sonic the Hedgehog 4

Sonic Generations

Sonic Adventure 2

Sonic Adventure

I'm also going to give honourable mention to Sonic Colours, though it's a game I'm very mixed on. But that aside, I have to roll my eyes when people claim that "Sonic hasn't been good since STH3," because while I agree that no game has topped STH 2 or 3, you don't need to be the best in the series to be "good."

Because many that tried to reinvent the wheel such as Sonic 2006 went down in flames.
Sonic 06 wasn't really reinventing anything. It was trying to be Sonic Adventure for the next generation.

I mean, it didn't work, like, at all, but reinvention wasn't the core of its problems. Having played some of 06, I can see glimmers of a solid game there, but it's one that's hampered by, among other things, glitchy controls, excessive load times, and, well, other things...
 

Batou667

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Hawki said:
Y'know, I keep hearing how terrible the Sonic and MLP fanbases are, but I've never seen it myself.
This is the fandom that culminated in Chris-Chan. There's a depressing game, I think one popularised by our own Yahtzee Crowshaw, where you do a Google search for "[your first name here] the Hedgehog" to see whose fursona you share a namesake with. And the R34. Oh god, the R34.

7.

The 6 to 7 isn't really a retcon if we accept that the seventh just wasn't present at the time. Apart from that, it's constantly been 7. The only exceptions I can recall are Sonic Championship (where it's 8 for some reason) and Sonic Spinball (which I understand to be in SatAM continuity rather than the games).
OK. How many Super Emeralds are there? What is the name of the island where the Master Emerald is kept? What about Time Stones?

Robotnik and Eggman are Sega America and Sega Japan calling him different things, and even then, the current standpoint is that his name is Doctor Robotnik, but he calls himself Eggman.
Except for when SoA changed his name to Eggman in Sonic Adventure, and I think in SA2 they reveal Robotnik is his family/ancestral name, or something.

Yes, I'm being pedantic, but I'm just demonstrating how utterly flimsy the canon is - even the parts that should be the most well established.

Does that include Snively and Grimer?
Yep. In their respective settings I could buy it. In the Sonic Movie, Stone seemed out of place. I can't put my finger on why.

If we define "stand out" as "genuinely good" and "aren't the original Genesis games," then I can nominate:

Sonic Riders

Sonic Battle

Sonic Rush

Sonic Rush Adventure

Sonic the Hedgehog 4

Sonic Generations

Sonic Adventure 2

Sonic Adventure
OK - a few Gameboy games there which I can't comment on, although I heard mostly good things about them at the time.

Sonic 4 is exactly the kind of "Sonic HD Greatest Hits Directors Cut Remix" bullcrap I was talking about though: absolutely no attempt at series progression or continuity, it's a thinly veiled HD remake/reboot. Likewise Sonic Generations is very, VERY self referential. Yes, they dress it up in a silly time travel/alternate universes/dimensions story but it's definitely a Greatest Hits compilation. As in, the characters revisit zones from previous games and remark to each other how familiar it all seems. It's fairly well done, but to compare this to TV, it's still a clip episode even if the actors wink at the camera and say "clip episodes, what's with that, am I right?"

SA and SA2, I agree with. They were enjoyable, ambitious games that added new characters that I didn't hate. It's bizarre that a Sonic Adventure 3 never happened - yes, I know the Dreamcast died, but other, lesser, franchises survived to have sequels on other platforms (Toejam and Earl 3, anyone).
 

Hawki

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Batou667 said:
This is the fandom that culminated in Chris-Chan.
Yeah, I had to look up who that even was.

Also, isn't the bigger tragedy the people who trolled him? I understood that people from Encyclopedia Dramatica, 4chan and Kiwi Farms did the harassing.

There's a depressing game, I think one popularised by our own Yahtzee Crowshaw, where you do a Google search for "[your first name here] the Hedgehog" to see whose fursona you share a namesake with. And the R34. Oh god, the R34.
So I can't comment on the former, and the latter, while unfortunate, is a reflection of Rule 34. If Sonic and MLP get more of Rule 34 than other fandoms, then that isn't the worst thing. I rank that as far less egregious than the behaviour of other fandoms, such as LoL, Star Wars and...pretty much every Blizzard IP at this point.

OK. How many Super Emeralds are there?
7

What is the name of the island where the Master Emerald is kept?
Angel Island.

What about Time Stones?
What about them?

Except for when SoA changed his name to Eggman in Sonic Adventure, and I think in SA2 they reveal Robotnik is his family/ancestral name, or something.
He didn't change his name in SoA. In the English dub, he calls himself Robotnik, but Sonic and co. call him "Eggman" as an insult. He apparently owns it later on by SA2, but the Robotnik is still acknowledged in Sonic Generations.

The Doylist explanation is that SoA and SoJ had different canons, but it's not much of a divergence.


OK - a few Gameboy games there which I can't comment on,
DS games actually.

although I heard mostly good things about them at the time.
You thinking of the Rush games or Advance games, because those are two different things.

The Advance games are okay, but "okay" is the key word. The DS games are outright good IMO.

Sonic 4 is exactly the kind of "Sonic HD Greatest Hits Directors Cut Remix" bullcrap I was talking about though: absolutely no attempt at series progression or continuity, it's a thinly veiled HD remake/reboot.
Um...

Plotwise, that isn't the case. The game manual makes it explicitly clear that STH4 happens right after STH3&K, before drawing on the events of Sonic CD further down the plot. I mean, it's not much of a plot, but it's an explicit continuation of the Genesis games.

If you're talking about gameplay, then yes, STH4 does have remixes of previous zones, but it's still fun at the end of the day. Controversial as it is, the homing attack and air dash do spice up the gameplay, and the tag team system in Ep. 2 is a lot of fun. In fact, Ep. 2 gets a hell of a lot more creative, and it's frankly a shame that we never got an Ep. 3.

Granted, I'm very much in the minority here.

Likewise Sonic Generations is very, VERY self referential. Yes, they dress it up in a silly time travel/alternate universes/dimensions story but it's definitely a Greatest Hits compilation. As in, the characters revisit zones from previous games and remark to each other how familiar it all seems. It's fairly well done, but to compare this to TV, it's still a clip episode even if the actors wink at the camera and say "clip episodes, what's with that, am I right?"
Well, yeah, but Generations has the excuse for nostalgia.

The plot of Generations is nothing special, but the gameplay holds up.

It's bizarre that a Sonic Adventure 3 never happened
I'll let you in on a secret - it did. It's STH 2006.

Think about it - hub worlds? Check. Multiple paths/stories that intersect? Check. Multiple characters with different gameplay styles? Check. Sonic in a predominantly human world? Check. Story that takes itself reasonably seriously? Check.

All that being said, I doubt we'll get a Sonic Adventure 3, and when I say that, a return to the Adventure formula, since it doesn't need to be named SA3 for that to happen. Since STH 2006, Sega's shied away from the Adventure style - not just in Sonic's gameplay, but with the removal of any other characters. And while I'm not going to shed a tear over the loss of Big the Cat (but that fucker is still in Sonic Heroes and Sonic Racing, so what do I know?),* but I do prefer the Adventure formula to the boost formula, even if I've had fun with the latter.

*Oh, and Sonic Chronicles, where towards the end, he's actually one of the most useful characters in the game. 0_0
 

CrazyGirl17

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Saw it with a friend around the time it came out and we both loved it.

Yeah, the product placement was a bit cringy, but I still thought it was a blast.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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It's watchable but unless your kids or something really want to see it, I wouldn't recommend it. It's a "wacky character ends up on earth and hijinks ensue" movie. Not the worst of those by far but I can guarantee, you've seen it before. I'm just repeating what I wrote in the Last Movie thread, I know. I think calling it "good" or even "decent" would be a stretch. It's inoffensively forgettable.