EstrogenicMuscle said:
I saw thunderf00t and TJ's response to Anita's videos and I didn't see a single instance of a strawman argument.
Do you know what a strawman fallacy is?
It's when someone misrepresents the opponent's position and uses this distortion to refute an argument that actually hasn't been made.
I didn't see them doing any of that.
In fact, TJ was largely in agreement with the points made in Anita's video.
Are we talking about the same people here?
EstrogenicMuscle said:
A statement that has sadly, mostly fallen on deaf ears. As many of the arguments against her are on the argument that she feels and claims the opposite. A strawman argument that ignores the fact she said this, because it doesn't go along with their agenda against her.
Who has ignored this?
The fact that she manages to enjoy games with perceived sexism in them is not relevant.
They are making arguments against the merits of her case.
I don't see what her enjoyment or non-enjoyment has to do with anything.
A strawman is when you distort the opponent's position.
In claiming that Anita's opposition has used the idea that she doesn't enjoy games where she perceives sexism, you have distorted the opposing argument.
No one is arguing this.
EstrogenicMuscle said:
it should be noted that both thunderf00t and TJ "The Amazing Atheist" have a strong vendetta against feminists and both of them are very defensive about white heterosexual male atheists and like to think they are a minority. And that being white men makes them every bit as much of a minority as being atheist.
Two things.
Number one. Thunderf00t is gay. He's not defensive about heterosexual anything.
But he knows when something goes too far.
Secondly, what is "And that being white men makes them every bit as much of a minority as being atheist" supposed to mean?
You're either insinuating that atheists are not a minority, which is false, or you're insinuating that they've claimed that white men are minorities, which they haven't done.
I know it's easy to try to force everything into your pre-written narrative, but the facts don't fit the argument.
EstrogenicMuscle said:
Why is it lazy? It's a strawman argument and that completely misses the point. There is nothing wrong with wanting to help others, have empathy for others, wanting to protect those you care about. And this is not what Anita is attacking. In the majority of these games, female characters have cheap, one dimensional characterization, and are made as an excuse, not as characters in and of themselves. Nary is it implied that Mario and Peach care for each other. And the majority of these "damsel" characters, are females made to be helpless, without explanation other than them being women. With no other explanation for their helplessness and needing of saving, than being women. It is cheap, lazy characterization, and it is a double standard in which men are allowed to be heroes, save the day, and save others, while women are reduced to being helpless objects.
It is natural and good to want to help others. It is sexist to create a double standard where female characters are tended to be rendered helpless and in need of saving rather than men. And in the majority of the cases where the trope is applied, the female characters are treated more like objects than loved ones. Their feelings and desires and agency are not expressed.
I don't see thunderf00t's response as being lazy at all.
It could just have easily been the main character's male best friend that is abducted or kidnapped or otherwise rendered helpless. If that were the case, I don't think you would have a problem with it.
Sure, you could interpret it as being a conscious or perhaps unconscious manifestation of society's misogyny, but what makes you think this is the case?
This type of haphazard psychological analysis of the causes behind the dev's decisions isn't really productive or useful.
I could offer alternative explanations that are equally as plausible with equally as little evidence for it.
I think what is, in fact, more likely is that they were simply pandering to their market audience.
Most of the gamers of that era and even today are heterosexual males.
How do you apply maximum emotional torque with as little narrative as possible?
Easy answer: love interest.
Who are the majority of the target audience?
Young (therefore predominantly horny) boys and men.
What you have to remember is that NOBODY was well characterized in days of gaming that anita cited.
Even now, good characterization is something that's pretty rare in games.
The fact that they are not well characterized is not evidence for anything.
In fact, to "express" their "feelings and desires" would detract from the game.
Where do you have either the time or the resources to be able to do this?
The point of a game is to entertain, not to sate your frustration stemming from short-sighted beliefs about what constitute sexism.
You're asking them to make a decision that takes away from the enjoyment of the game in order to satisfy your need for one of the plot devices to have extensive characterization.
And yes, the girl is a plot device. Almost every character is a plot device in video games.
This isn't evidence of misogyny.
EstrogenicMuscle said:
The idea that a man's worth is judged by how much sex he's having, and how desirable the women he's having sex with are seen by the average man. In societies' dating game, women are treated as a possession of value depending on their looks and number of sexual contacts. Which is extremely predatory and sad, but that's a topic for another time.
What? I can't seem to agree with the premise.
Why is men wanting to have sex with women sad?
What is so appalling to you about the idea of a friend zone?
While I agree that it doesn't make sense for a man's worth to be judged by how many women he's had sex with, that's not really a reflection of misogyny or patriarchy.
I really don't see how women are viewed as objects in the dating game.
Elaborate on it.
And before you start assaulting me from your high horse with "righteous" indignation, let me gently ease you off of it.
Telling me "You don't get it" or that I'm experiencing a blindness caused by the patriarchy is not productive.
If you truly have strength in your convictions, let your argument stand on its merits!
Tell me WHY.
EstrogenicMuscle said:
But in contrast with the damsel in distress trope, male characters are typically allowed some kind of agency in their own escape.
That's because men are usually the main characters.
It doesn't make sense for supporting characters to be doing their own shit.
If you're the player, it's YOUR story.
It doesn't make any sense from a narrative perspective.
When do supporting characters ever escape without the help of the hero?
Male or female?
Even when it's a guy, the hero goes in, guns blazing, and rescues the comrade, with whom he shares a bromantic moment.
Gender does not factor into this formula.
EstrogenicMuscle said:
So, I'm sorry I'm not sorry. Because she's right and I completely agree with her. Also, one common criticism of her video is that she's "playing captain obvious". And I agree that, yes, most of the stuff in her video should not be mindblowingly new to most people. Her points should be obvious. However, given how many people defensively and viciously disagree with her, I would say that stating the obvious is still quite important, because many people clearly do not see that her points are true.
I sense a hint of passive aggressive combativeness.
"I'm sorry I'm not sorry"?
Really, now?
And her points are not obvious, mainly because they aren't true.
Her observations have varying degrees of truth to them, but her analysis is completely off.
Do not assume that what you believe is true.
It's easy to get into the echo-chamber mentality when you're only exposed to people that think alike.