So... is Baby Yoda a M/Gary Sue

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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votemarvel said:
I've yet to see the Mandalorian so I'll have to reserve comment on that for now.

As to Rey, things did come far to effortlessly for her and the problem is that they didn't seize that as a plot point.

Have the Emperor there in front of her "have you never wondered why you are so powerful my dear, that abilities come so easily? You draw your power from me. Join me in the dark side and become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" (yeah I suck at dialogue.)

Use it essentially as the Last Temptation of Rey. Of course she'd turn down the Emperor and win the day but she would find her powers greatly reduced. With the help of the Jedi texts and Luke's force ghost she starts to learn those abilities again at a little moisture farm on Tatooine.
I?d have been down for that. And I can totally hear Ian McDiarmid saying that.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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votemarvel said:
I've yet to see the Mandalorian so I'll have to reserve comment on that for now.

As to Rey, things did come far to effortlessly for her and the problem is that they didn't seize that as a plot point.

Have the Emperor there in front of her "have you never wondered why you are so powerful my dear, that abilities come so easily? You draw your power from me. Join me in the dark side and become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" (yeah I suck at dialogue.)

Use it essentially as the Last Temptation of Rey. Of course she'd turn down the Emperor and win the day but she would find her powers greatly reduced. With the help of the Jedi texts and Luke's force ghost she starts to learn those abilities again at a little moisture farm on Tatooine.
That is how it should have been. Props
 

CaitSeith

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Meiam said:
I think for someone to be a Gary/Mary Sue there need to be the element of self insertion for the author/audience.
Not really. The only real requirement for a Sue character is that their presence bends the established rules of the universe, making everything to orbit around them (like a gravitational well) when it really shouldn't. Call me when Baby Yoda either defeats Darth Vader or brings him back from the Dark Side.
 

Saint of M

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I'm ganna go with Caitsith and the Overly Sarcastic Productions' Red on the definition, or at least when it becomes problematic.

Ridiculously overpowered charecters are a dime a dozen. John Whick, Superman, Master Chief, Stealth Archer build of Dragonborn, exct. exct.

Those with nigh invulnerable plot armor as well. James Bond, Conan the Barbarian, Wiley Coyote, eect..

Or are just too perfect.

MCU Captain America, Jesus Christ, Fropy.

Even self inserts can be great. Nabeshin, Hermony Granger, J. Jonnah Jamison.

The sue at its core revolves around the character being the most awesome thing since ever as its start and end point and does little if anything to expand to anything more meaningful than that.

As is, just going off Watch Mojo, we don't have that problem. Over powered with the force, well that seems par from the course with Yoda's race, and even then the kid only has limited use of it it before passing out. He can heal, force choke, move objects and so on, but stopping the rhino took alot out of him in the same way of Conosuba's Megemi gets whiped out when she does explotion magic.

He's curiosu about things and acts just how a cat or toddler would act (or better yet, a combination of the two).

He also shows signs of fear, joy, confusion, embarisment, and now I'm coppying daddy moments.

If anything is a sue in starwars, its probably BB-8 and even then I will defend my soccer ball of doom till the end of of the internet.
 

Agema

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Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.
 

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Agema said:
Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.
Thank you. This is the smartest comment in this thread. Took the words right out of my mouth.
 

CaitSeith

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Agema said:
Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.

PS: Yes, it's possible that the author wanted themselves to be a magical alien baby. I have seen weirder authors out there.

EDIT: And if the term Mary Sue becomes meaningless, so be it. It already is heavily misused and rarely for constructive criticism.
 

twistedmic

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saint of m said:
Stealth Archer build of Dragonborn
You say that as if there were any other possible builds for the Dragonborn.

If anything is a sue in starwars, its probably BB-8 and even then I will defend my soccer ball of doom till the end of of the internet.
I'd say that Artoo is more sue-ish than BB-8.
 

Trunkage

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Agema said:
Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.
Actual serious question. Why is everyone so worried about terms being used so much they are useless? (As some other example of terms wearing out their use {apparently} sexist and racist)
 

Saint of M

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twistedmic said:
saint of m said:
Stealth Archer build of Dragonborn
You say that as if there were any other possible builds for the Dragonborn.

If anything is a sue in starwars, its probably BB-8 and even then I will defend my soccer ball of doom till the end of of the internet.
I'd say that Artoo is more sue-ish than BB-8.
Sword and Board, Destruction Magic and Alteration Heavy with light armor, run around naked
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Agema said:
Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.
Honestly see little fruitful use of the term at all so kinda wish people would stop using it for a different reason entirely. Sort of like a who even cares if it is at this point, it's an annoying shortcut for people to not really explain why they hate something

Tho I took this thread as a joke
 

Secondhand Revenant

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trunkage said:
Agema said:
Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.
Actual serious question. Why is everyone so worried about terms being used so much they are useless? (As some other example of terms wearing out their use {apparently} sexist and racist)
In this case I don't know.

In the other cases I see it as fake hand wringing to try to slap down an accusation they disagree with. In this case I really can't see the investment anyone would have in doing so for baby Yoda lol
 

Trunkage

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The Decapitated Centaur said:
Agema said:
Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.
Honestly see little fruitful use of the term at all so kinda wish people would stop using it for a different reason entirely. Sort of like a who even cares if it is at this point, it's an annoying shortcut for people to not really explain why they hate something

Tho I took this thread as a joke
Not necessarily a joke, more like a shower thought. But no, its not meant to be serious

But then, I don't hand wring over terms like racist, PC, Mary Sue or White Genocide. But I understand that it does for others. I should have expected it

And I do find it funny how certain pundits think that Captain Marvel is a Mary Sue when her big flaw is how arrogant and rash she is, she clearly gets caught through her stupidity and no one really loves her in the movie. But she's an OP woman, so she must be a Mary Sue. (Thus, I'm also gauging others understanding of the term)
 

Falling_v1legacy

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Well, Mary/Gary Sue/Stue isn't simply about power levels, although it can be an indicator.
Another big indicator is they have a tendency to undercut canon characters, that is be better, faster, stronger, etc (queue Daft Punk), prettier than the OG characters. Maybe a love interest to one of the canon characters, maybe not (wish fulfillment department). But another major part is that the M/Gary is always right/ everyone except the Malfoys of the world agree with said character. And then the Malfoys are put in their place, obviously. There is more and not every M/Gary will have every characteristic, but lil Yoda's lack of dialogue makes it harder to have the fawning aspect surrounding most M/Garys. Lil Yoda can come to wrong conclusions (choking out the strike trooper during a friendly arm wrestle) which makes me lean towards not M/Gary.

However, I'm not super psyched out all the force powers lil Yoda is exhibiting so soon, but it's very hard to quibble because he's so darn cute. If this was a six-year old kid running around and spouting off, he wouldn't be nearly so adorable and would probably be roundly hated. I see what Disney is doing- their dark magic of making cute and cuddly animals has been concentrated and perfected- lil Yoda is their final form. I know what they doing, but I cannot resist, I... must.... submit. I accept. You win Disney. Baby Yoda is adorable and my mind thinks no longer.
 

Agema

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trunkage said:
Actual serious question. Why is everyone so worried about terms being used so much they are useless? (As some other example of terms wearing out their use {apparently} sexist and racist)
That's sort of a secondary concern: languages change all the time. My main one is the use of terms in a manner sufficiently loose that other people don't readily understand.

Part of my objection is that we seem to have an incredibly rapid turnover of terms these days. They exist, morph vastly in a few years and die. But the point of semantics is for communication: what does it do for communication when terms get abruptly created, evolve at breakneck pace with insecure and variable meaning (often among only limited demographic groups), and disappear?

To me, it's just a recipe to dimish our ability to communicate with each other, to end up bogged down in semantic confusion and even linguistic segregation. Sometimes we have simply decreased ability to impart meaning, because we've blown up a perfectly good term to define a specific concept.

I think also there can be an element of laziness to it: we know a term is a pejorative, so we throw that prejudicial pejorative at something we don't like to poison the well before the discussion even starts: "nazi", "SJW", etc.
 

irishda

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I'm just saddened by the Force being overplayed in Star Wars in general. The Mandalorian was initially interesting to me because it promised a series focused away from the CONSTANT Jedi drama and dealing with people who can't macguffin their way out of every situation. And then it immediately pivots to exactly that, except worse because it doesn't seem intent on examining the effects surrounding the circumstances of having a young force user buddying around with a bounty hunter from a war-like people.
 

CaitSeith

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irishda said:
I'm just saddened by the Force being overplayed in Star Wars in general. The Mandalorian was initially interesting to me because it promised a series focused away from the CONSTANT Jedi drama and dealing with people who can't macguffin their way out of every situation. And then it immediately pivots to exactly that, except worse because it doesn't seem intent on examining the effects surrounding the circumstances of having a young force user buddying around with a bounty hunter from a war-like people.
That reminds me how the first Star Wars: Dark Forces game had nothing to do with the Force (it was simply a cool Doom-clone Star Wars FPS); but in the sequel the protagonist awakens his Jedi powers.