So I've been playing Zoe's "games"...

[NoeL]

Disclaimer: This is not a thread about her private life (which I believe should remain private), nor is it about the state of games journalism (at least not in the same way people have been going on about it lately). Please don't make it about such.
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EDIT FOR CLARITY: When I said "games" (quotation marks) rather than games (no quotation marks) it was more to do with the question of what constitutes a game, not a slight against the quality of the product. A choose your own adventure novel isn't a game - it's an interactive narrative. There's a categorical difference. Minecraft technically isn't a game - it's better categorised as an electronic toy. The confusion comes where we've began to identify all forms of artistic interactive digital media as "games" simply due to it being a new thing and us not having a more appropriate (or I should say, less cumbersome) label for it. Depression Quest is not a game, in its literal sense. There are no win/lose conditions (something fundamental to games), it's just a narrative experience. Fake Geek Girl Detector is not a game either. That said, Jeff Goldblum Staring Contest and Realistic Relationship Simulator are games - incredibly simple (and poor, IMO) games, but they're games nonetheless and I wouldn't say otherwise. I guess that was lost on some people.


ORIGINAL POST: Apologies if this has been talked about elsewhere, but has anyone else bothered to check out Zoe Quinns game dev chops? She's a high-profile personality in the indie industry but she's only released one "game" (actually an interactive narrative) which is nothing more than text and hyperlinks (and a few photos/sound clips) built with existing text adventure software, and her game jam contributions are largely the same thing - text-based, built with the same software. Even thematically her (and her team(s) - even Depression Quest has two other guys in the credits) games are, though different, not particularly inspired or original (e.g. Fake Geek Girl Detector, which asks you a few questions before shoving the tired old "gamez is 4 evryone!" message down your throat). Hell, even her signature game Depression Quest is, to put it bluntly, just not written very well. The prose is very bland and descriptive[footnote]

Spoiler

"You are a mid-twenties human being. You have a significant other named Alex who you are rather fond of, that you have been seeing exclusively for the past few months. The rest of your social circle consists of a variety of friends and acquaintances, some of whom you met at your day job which is a little boring, but pays the rent. You'd like to be doing more with your life, as would your parents, but you're still in the process of figuring out what that means and how to go about it."

[/footnote], which is possibly to emulate the style of old text adventures (i.e. written by programmers, not authors) or to thematically fit with the subject of depression, but the game suffers for it IMO. It's too boring to care about what's going on, and if you're not engaged with the protagonist (you) the game fails at delivering its intended message. But hey, maybe it's just not for me.

I know she's very enthusiastic and does a lot within the industry (hosting game design classes, and I think she built some software for newcomers that I haven't tried out yet), but as far as being a game developer... I haven't seen a single noteworthy thing about her - not even in terms of theme or design. Some of her stuff is a bit quirky (like Jeff Goldblum Staring Contest, where you literally just stare at a photo of Jeff Goldblum) but quirky =/= good. The stuff she's put out isn't really any better or more original then your average teenage girl on Tumblr (or what they would put out if they had some rudimentary programming knowledge), and when she's presented as a top female developer in the indie scene that's incredibly depressing.

So is there something I'm missing? Does she actually have some talent I haven't yet seen, or is she really only visible because she makes such a loud noise about being a female developer?

Captcha: bad egg. Now now, let's not be premature.

 

[small]

Out of curiosity, and I do not mean this in an antagonistic way, so please do not take it as such, why does it matter? I mean, evidently her games speak to some and don't speak to others. They don't personally speak to me. But I can say the same about COD, while I really like Borderlands.

Games are subjective because of how they make a person feel. It's not always about the dev (not always), sometimes it's about how the narrative makes someone laugh, or get frustrated playing, or just ponder about things. Depression quest didn't speak to you, the writing may have seemed lacking, but to someone else it may have seemed really wonderful.

And before you reframe your question, you didn't frame your question that way. It wasn't "why do you like this game that I don't like, because I don't understand it." It seems quite condescending that you just assume everyone that plays the game doesn't like the game, and they're only supporting her because she's making a fuss about being a female developer.

I don't think that's just it.

I definitely agree with you there.
There are so many games that appeal to some people, even one critically acclaimed like spec ops the line which others see as nothing more than a linear substandard shooter.

personally i found so many things in it and its one of my favourite games full stop

as for depression quest it didnt speak to the OP but it does to others, that is the same with any medium from literature to music and film.

that "games" in the thread title is very dismissive and comes across as arrogant, i get it didnt speak to you but it has always irked me when people dismiss things as not being real games just because they dont fit some personally perceived criteria, its also i believe limiting for the individual as well and its always good to expand your horizons and to explore things even if it doesnt click with you.

 

[Maximum Bert]

Someone posted Depression Quest quite a while ago on these boards and I thought id give it a go its not really my type of game but then neither was Katawa Shoujo and after originally dismissing that before going back and finding it really rather good I thought id give Depression Quest a go as well.

I think I got the best ending just following what I wanted as I tried to put myself in the situation and do what I think I would do in that case but it was kinda weird I just kept thinking bloody hell this person has a way better life than me and they are depressed which was kinda depressing and uplifting at the same time lol.

I struggle to remember much about it though it really was a case of oh thats it ok and I moved on didnt find it particularly bad or good or memorable really certainly nothing stuck with me and the above thought is really the strongest feeling I can recall on hearing the games name.

 

[Rozalia1]

When I glanced at the title I thought this thread was about someone getting round to playing the Zone of the Enders (am I the only one?) which is pretty damn sweet thing to be happening...but no its another Zoe Quinn thread.

Games are subjective, some people believe Heavy Rain to be one of the best games ever, others don't. That is all there is to it. Anyway as far as I'm aware she isn't presented as some elite female developer as I'm pretty sure the large majority of people didn't even know who she was until all this bunkum.

 

[nevarran]

Just out of curiosity, have you played those "games" because of all the controversy surrounding her?

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

As a Nurse working in Psychiatric Care I love Depression Quest. It is a game that fully captures what it means to suffer from depression, while also being a pretty good guide on how to act to recover from it. Whatever your misgivings about it are though, it is important to realize that Depression Quest, just like Papers, Please, isn't meant to be an entertaining game. It is meant to be an eye-opener for people who haven't suffered Depression or are suffering from Depression but doesn't know how to begin seeking treatment. Just like Papers, Please, it is meant to make the player think about the topic at hand and their own thoughts and feelings about it.

In essence, Depression Quest is an indie game at its' finest, a game that breaks the mold of what games are or what games are "supposed to be" as well as daring to talk about topics that are normally taboo or hush-hush. Even if you don't care for it, it is a well-crafted and well-researched game with a clear message about a controversial topic. You don't have to like it, but trying to deny its' uniqueness or artistic merit at this point in time just makes you seem as just another person trying to discredit Quinn.

 

[dangoball]

Basically what the first two posters said, but my personal imput is that I liked Depression Quest - at least as much as one can "like" something about depression. The game is definitely not for everyone, but it represents depression quite well for a text game. I strugled with it myself for some time and the game made me tear up when I remembered those times as I was playing.

For me it was a good game. As any game it is limited in what it can do while exploring certain topic and as such some might not find it to their liking. I also remember one comment at the game complaining that getting a cat was considered a "healthy" option, because his experience with depression indicated otherwise. Subjective perception and all that.

I also find it kinda funny when you wrote

and when she's presented as a top female developer in the indie scene that's incredibly depressing.

in a thread about Depression Quest. I'm aware that calling something depressing is ingrained in common language due to general lack of understanding of what depression actually is, but come on. When you're complaining about someones style of writing, at least be careful about your own choice of words.

I just kept thinking bloody hell this person has a way better life than me and they are depressed which was kinda depressing and uplifting at the same time lol.

This is exactly the thing. People rarely understand that depression is not connected to how "good" someone has it, it's a clinical illness. Quite often those who strugle with depression also think "Why the fuck am I depressed? I have a familiy, a job, good friends. I have no right to be depressed. I'm such an ungrateful litle piece of shit!", which doesn't help at all.

If you want to experience more of what depression might be like, try choosing those "unhealty" options in Depression Quest - the story will quite different.

 

[Calcium]

So I've been reading the OP's "post"...

People connect with games in different ways, for different reasons. It's a subjective thing. I'd like to think that people that are interested enough to visit websites dedicated to games would know this, but apparently we're still stuck declaring developers talentless and/or deriding those that like and play the games we disagree with (not directed at OP, more just reflections on how some people will sneer at those playing CoD).

 

[P.Tsunami]

I'll join the choir of voices chiming in that OP doesn't give Depression Quest the credit it deserves. I thought it was a powerful experience that spoke to me on a deeply personal level. What the game aims to do is shed light on clinical depression, and I think it accomplishes that very well.

 

[Batou667]

The quality of a game isn't purely subjective. If it was, what would be the point of assigning scores in game reviews?

I haven't played Depression Quest but I think NoeL is perfectly entitled to question the quality of workmanship workpersonship (check your privilege, spellchecker) on display. Zoe Quinn markets herself as an indie dev so it's completely valid to critique her on the strength of her games - her personal life, that's an ad hominem - so what's with the tutting and shushing? If NoeL's appraisal is correct and Quinn is little more than an enthusiastic amateur who for some reason enjoys power and publicity above her station, that's not something we should feel compelled to keep quiet about.

Tl;dr: It's wrong-headed and possibly a bit patronising to suggest that Quinn shouldn't receive critique on her games. Being a developer wasn't a "protected characteristic" last I checked.

 

[dangoball]

The quality of a game isn't purely subjective. If it was, what would be the point of assigning scores in game reviews?

I haven't played Depression Quest but I think NoeL is perfectly entitled to question the quality of workmanship workpersonship (check your privilege, spellchecker) on display. Zoe Quinn markets herself as an indie dev so it's completely valid to critique her on the strength of her games - her personal life, that's an ad hominem - so what's with the tutting and shushing? If NoeL's appraisal is correct and Quinn is little more than an enthusiastic amateur who for some reason enjoys power and publicity above her station, that's not something we should feel compelled to keep quiet about.

Tl;dr: It's wrong-headed and possibly a bit patronising to suggest that Quinn shouldn't receive critique on her games. Being a developer wasn't a "protected characteristic" last I checked.

I don't think anyone here has a problem with cirtique of games, but a lot of us didn't like how OP basicaly called Depression Quest and anything Zoe Quin does in that vein "not a game". Just because OP didn't find it to his liking doesn't mean it's not a game. I didn't oppose his "arguments", I opposed his arguments - see the difference?

Also, to adress your scores in game reviews point - what makes you think those have any objective value? Those basically mean "All things considered, I think this game is about number/scale good". We can judge graphics, control scheme, gameplay, all of which Depression Quest has none or near to zero. There's some audio, but beat me over the head with a stick if you think it's a good idea to compare soundtrack of what is basically a text adventure with how well synched are the sounds of footsteps with your toons. The point of scores is to find someone who has similar criteria to yours and then see how that person likes said game. And review score bloating is another can of worms.

 

[Batou667]

I don't think anyone here has a problem with cirtique of games, but a lot of us didn't like how OP basicaly called Depression Quest and anything Zoe Quin does in that vein "not a game". Just because OP didn't find it to his liking doesn't mean it's not a game. I didn't oppose his "arguments", I opposed his arguments - see the difference?

I didn't interpret the OP as claiming Quinn's games weren't games, rather he thought they weren't very good. That's a valid position to hold, and just because Quinn has been the recipient of negative press and harassment recently doesn't make her professional work beyond scrutiny.

Also, to adress your scores in game reviews point - what makes you think those have any objective value? Those basically mean "All things considered, I think this game is about number/scale good". We can judge graphics, control scheme, gameplay, all of which Depression Quest has none or near to zero. There's some audio, but beat me over the head with a stick if you think it's a good idea to compare soundtrack of what is basically a text adventure with how well synched are the sounds of footsteps with your toons. The point of scores is to find someone who has similar criteria to yours and then see how that person likes said game. And review score bloating is another can of worms.

We could still judge a text adventure on the quality of writing, immersiveness, originality of ideas, scope of possible player decisions, and so on. We could look at several different text adventures and place them on a hierarchy of "bad" to "good". As long as a piece of media contains an element of craftsmanship we have something objective to talk about, and personal preference is a lens that we can then look through to decide whether it's our cup of tea or not. For example, I hate racing games and I'd be reluctant to play even an excellent example of the genre - but I still acknowledge that Forza is objectively better than Big Rigs.

Anyway, I hate these threads where the OP makes a hit-and-run post and I'm left fighting his corner, so I'll wait for the OP to reappear before I make any further comments.

 

[Gorrath]

People are right to say that Depression Quest is a game. As we push the medium of games forward as an art, we'll get to see a lot of parallel with art movements and aesthetics incorporated from existing medium. Minimalism in game design from amateurs is something that should be expected, as it allows the game designer to create impactful work (this is subjective of course) without a huge budget and a legion of devs.

All of that said, NoeL's observations aren't in the wrong either. Some movies speak to some people and not to others but that certainly does not mean we shouldn't be free to critique them. After all, these critiques are done from our personal experience with a piece of art, not from someone else's perspective. The claim that the game "spoke to people" isn't a refutation.

As a Nurse working in Psychiatric Care I love Depression Quest. It is a game that fully captures what it means to suffer from depression, while also being a pretty good guide on how to act to recover from it. Whatever your misgivings about it are though, it is important to realize that Depression Quest, just like Papers, Please, isn't meant to be an entertaining game. It is meant to be an eye-opener for people who haven't suffered Depression or are suffering from Depression but doesn't know how to begin seeking treatment. Just like Papers, Please, it is meant to make the player think about the topic at hand and their own thoughts and feelings about it.

In essence, Depression Quest is an indie game at its' finest, a game that breaks the mold of what games are or what games are "supposed to be" as well as daring to talk about topics that are normally taboo or hush-hush. Even if you don't care for it, it is a well-crafted and well-researched game with a clear message about a controversial topic. You don't have to like it, but trying to deny its' uniqueness or artistic merit at this point in time just makes you seem as just another person trying to discredit Quinn.

Sorry to pick on you Geth, but your post is a great illustration of several points I'd like to make. Not harping on you, I promise. The first paragraph here where you talk about how well the game portrays real depression and what the purpose of the game is beyond entertainment is great. This is a fine way to rebut NoeL's criticisms. The second paragraph starts in the same vein, explaining how the game design is meant to call into question what a game is supposed to be/be about.

Unfortunately, you throw in a line at the end that tips the whole boat over. It comes off as being an attempt to silence NoeL's criticisms by calling into question his motives, which doesn't serve any critical purpose and comes off like a personal attack. He's well within the bounds of proper criticism to call into question the artistic merits of the game and the talent of its creator without being round-about-ly accused of trying to discredit her. You might be right that some people would look at NoeL's criticisms and assume he's trying to discredit her (I don't presume you are attempting that yourself), but that person would be out of line for doing so. It's unjustified.

 

[Something Amyss]

Welcome to gaming circles: where a walking simulator made in someone else's engine is a game, but text in someone else's engine isn't a game.

The quality of a game isn't purely subjective. If it was, what would be the point of assigning scores in game reviews?

That's a faulty argument. Scores in game reviews are subjective.

 

[Batou667]

The quality of a game isn't purely subjective. If it was, what would be the point of assigning scores in game reviews?

That's a faulty argument. Scores in game reviews are subjective.

Only to the same degree that language is subjective and opinions are subjective. If somebody awarded Custer's Revenge a 10/10 score we'd have to conclude that either they were using scoring criteria that are completely different to everybody else's, or that they are plain wrong. Ditto if I awarded FIFA 2015 a 1/10 score. It doesn't matter that I hate football, the game is objectively better than 1/10.

And anyway, even if a degree of subjectivity is inherent that doesn't disprove the idea that it's possible and meaningful to score games. There are objective underlying criteria that we use to form our partially subjective opinions.

 

[Something Amyss]

Only to the same degree that language is subjective and opinions are subjective.

Yes, and that's exactly why it's a bad argument.

The quality of a game is entirely rooted in what the person rating it values. This is why we get so many "overrated" and "underrated" thrads around these here parts.