So most people understand that piracy is NOT theft, technically...

DeltaEdge

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Although it is somewhat similar to theft, I still agree with you that it is not "theft", but copyright infringement. My real world example would be taking a cloning gun and going into a store and cloning a chocolate bar. The bar is not stolen, you have instead produced your own exact copy of the chocolate bar without actually taking the chocolate bar in question. Thus, nothing is stolen, but it could potentially result in a loss of money, because even though they have not lost the product for no compensation, the have lost a potential for compensation and the cloning of that single chocolate bar might result in many people cloning that exact chocolate bar, and if everyone obtain a copy of that chocolate bar, then it could be infinitely cloned, thus no one would buy them any more, which would lead conveniences stores and chocolate bar retailers to not allow cloning guns into the stores any more. I'm sure all of you already get it completely, but that's just my analogy since it's pretty unique in a sense.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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The trouble is copies do no harm its the monetary flow around them that dose harm and devalues the originals.
 

Blood Brain Barrier

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Weighing up the pros and cons of piracy, I'd have to conclude it's a good thing. Preservation and distribution of art is far more important than personal interests of a few of its creators.
 

Alterego-X

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That_Sneaky_Camper said:
According to Wikipedia piracy is not theft, it is an example of copyright infringement.

Wikipedia on the subject: "Copyright infringement is the unauthorized or prohibited use of works under copyright, infringing the copyright holder's exclusive rights, such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, or to make derivative works."

This means that they are unlawfully making derivatives or copies of the original without the authority of the owner. Not theft, but still illegal.
Only in the US and some other countries. But for example in Switzerland, Canada, Russia, or the Netherlands, making copies for personal use (that makes the largest part of "piracy") is entirely legal.

That also implies that there is a substantial difference between theft and piracy. After all, you don't hear that entire developed countries legalize robbery, or fraud, solely because "legally, it's not 'theft'".
 

direkiller

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FelixG said:
direkiller said:
Alterego-X said:
Right now, it doesn't take into account the probability of word of mouth and other ways of the increased audience further increasing sales. For example maybe if file sharers wouldn't have access to it, 17% of them would rather buy it, but the other 83% not being able to play it would have such a bad effect on mainstream awareness of it, that it would be much more obscure, and that would badly affect it's long term sales, or sequel sales.
There is studdys done on that but this one pertains to music(there is a part on word of mouth sales in there if your wondering). It showed that the word of mouth advisement was not enough to counteract piracy loss on larger record labels.
I can go into depth if you want but you stated the effect were not mensurable which is just wrong.
Yet pirates spend just as much money (If not more) than those that don't pirate.

My source? The Swiss government. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2397173,00.asp
about 17% of them don't.
They will pirate in lue of buying a product.
 

Wolfram23

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Did you know there's actually a lot of stuff I'm legally able to download (pirate) without breaking the law? Books, music, movies, *some* games... All legal.

I just can't upload them or circumvent DRM.
 

Asehujiko

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Ordinaryundone said:
No, its theft.
The US supreme court says: "No, it's copyright infringement"

The EU supreme court says: "No, it's not even a crime"

But why would we listen to the two foremost authorities on legal matters while there is internet moralizing to be done?

Regnes said:
I agree, but if anybody pro-piracy actually uses that as a defense, they should kill themselves right now. "Yes let's argue about dictionary definitions, maybe people will forget that piracy is still illegal." It's ideologically the same as theft and thus has been written into law in order to protect intellectual rights.
No, it was written into law because of lobbying and outright bribery(see Chris Dodd) to serve the interests of major financial players. For an example going back a hundred years, refer to Thomas Edison fucking over Nikola Tesla. Hampering consumer level infringement is a tertiary concern at best.
 

The

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What if I were to download a game that has DRM on the paid version, removing it from the cracked version and then send them the money afterwards?
 

samsonguy920

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Whether piracy damages the sales of products is true or not probably merely rests in the thoughts of the producers themselves.
Let me put forward another thought that might make better sense:
If people all decided enough was enough of the crap that Hollywood put out and everyone did not go to any movie that was obvious trash, like Adam Sandler's 'Jack and Jill,' the kneejerk reaction to the crap sales the studios would have is obviously people are pirating the movie and therefore something should be done about it.
What I am trying to say here, is the most likely case where piracy gets blown out of proportion is because the MPAA and RIAA are using it as a scapegoat for their own ineptitude in making anything worth putting money toward. Most likely the case of no money being made is people just aren't touching it at all, including not pirating it.
What we shouldn't be defending is whether piracy is right or wrong, but that there should be better effort put towards content that producers ask us to purchase.

Of course, that argument is all the more difficult due to the Twilight movies, and Jack and Jill. I'm starting to wonder if the flouride conspiracy freaks might be onto something...

The said:
What if I were to download a game that has DRM on the paid version, removing it from the cracked version and then send them the money afterwards?
Depends what you do with it then. If you keep it to yourself, then that actually falls under fair use. If you share it from there, then you are infringing.
However, the big studios have stepped all over fair use for years now. Don't expect any mercy.
 

Magnicon

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Do your research people.

http://www.joystiq.com/2011/07/05/report-game-industry-worth-74-billion-in-2011/

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/118/1184550p1.html

http://games.ign.com/articles/121/1213357p1.html

http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/02/17/0526200/valve-beats-google-apple-for-profits-per-employee

http://torrentfreak.com/top-10-most-pirated-movies-of-all-time-111012/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCkX0KcNwrI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCk9Cheiqqg

http://thenextweb.com/2008/12/09/author-paulo-coelho-supports-piracy-share-to-get-revenue/

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114537-File-sharing-Remains-Legal-In-Switzerland

Bathesda Net income 450 million
Vivendi (ActivisionBlizzard) Profit ?2.198 billion (2010)
EA Net income US$-677 million (FY 2010)
Ubisoft Net income ?89.8 million (2010) <- Worst DRM offenders and biggest piracy complainers have noticeably lower number.
 

DevilWithaHalo

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So many interesting analogies, can I get in on this?

Piracy is sneaking into a show on broadway because you want the entertainment but you're unwilling to pay the $20 for a seat.

----

I'm also leery of the argument that pirating specifically helps sales. That's actually not the case at all; advertising helps sales. Piracy simply fascilitated the advertising; which would have existed if it was legally aquired anyway. Perhaps instead of arguing that it wouldn't have existed because the person in question couldn't afford it anyway, they should consider striking up a mutually beneficial partnership with the company for free advertising in exchange for free content.

I am loving the attempts at justifying being a dick, because that's pretty much what Piracy is to me. Just own it and accept the consequences.
 

Olrod

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Magnicon said:
Do your research people.

http://www.joystiq.com/2011/07/05/report-game-industry-worth-74-billion-in-2011/

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/118/1184550p1.html

http://games.ign.com/articles/121/1213357p1.html

http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/02/17/0526200/valve-beats-google-apple-for-profits-per-employee

http://torrentfreak.com/top-10-most-pirated-movies-of-all-time-111012/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCkX0KcNwrI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCk9Cheiqqg

http://thenextweb.com/2008/12/09/author-paulo-coelho-supports-piracy-share-to-get-revenue/

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114537-File-sharing-Remains-Legal-In-Switzerland

Bathesda Net income 450 million
Vivendi (ActivisionBlizzard) Profit ?2.198 billion (2010)
EA Net income US$-677 million (FY 2010)
Ubisoft Net income ?89.8 million (2010) <- Worst DRM offenders and biggest piracy complainers have noticeably lower number.
I wonder how those numbers would change if they didn't have such counter-productive, consumer-punishing, piracy-encouraging DRM...?
 

Digitaldreamer7

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SenseOfTumour said:
Would people perhaps agree that it's closest in crimes to counterfeiting?

You're taking something of value and copying it, and in doing so, making more copies than were originally available, and in doing so, devaluing the originals.

It is after all, one of the pirate's excuse that 'games/cds/movies aren't worth the asking price', but that's coming from the perspective of someone who gets them for free.

This isn't a criticism or defence of piracy, more some desperate plea not to see 'its theft/no it isn't' take up a full page of every tangentally related thread on here :D

I don't believe every download is a lost sale, but I do believe piracy in general devalues what's being copied.
Of course it's not theft. If it were theft we would call it theft, not piracy.
 

Atmos Duality

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Digitaldreamer7 said:
Of course it's not theft. If it were theft we would call it theft, not piracy.
Actually, the United States calls it "Copyright Infringement".
But, details.
 

MiracleOfSound

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SenorStocks said:
What does that even mean? How can something be morally theft, but not legally? It doesn't make any sense.
Because being moral and being legal are not always the same thing...
 

Kragg

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haha this topic again, cant believe someone with a morpheus badge got goaded into a permaban over this

people will never ever agree and youll never convince anyone of their own oppinion on this topc, just let it go guys :p
 

Krion_Vark

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SenorStocks said:
Phlakes said:
SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
Heres the thing: nobody really cares about what you or Thal think about the subject.

In legal terms, its not theft. Thats what matters. Nothing more to say really.
No, in legal terms, it's not theft, that's absolutely true. But in (relative) moral terms, hell yeah it is.
What does that even mean? How can something be morally theft, but not legally? It doesn't make any sense.
Well lets start with the more easily put part of that. IT IS NOT ILLEGAL IF YOU DO NOT GET CAUGHT. There it is now morally wrong to pirate but it is not illegal.

Now let us go with the more thought out way this can be put.
One of the dictionary definitions of theft is this: the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; Going into technicalities the game does not fall under ownership of anyone therefore is not actually theft.
And here it gets a bit tricky when talking about it morally. Morally it is theft. While you are not stealing someones actual property you are stealing something from them. The benefit to their TIME. They are not doing this for shits and giggles they are doing it because they want people to see it and they want their price of admission because quite frankly how would you like it if you put time and effort into something only to have people take your work for nothing? Like shit huh? If not you are lying because NO ONE would not care for not getting paid for their work. UNLESS they are volunteers or interns who agree with not getting paid.

Is it legally stealing? Nope. Is it morally stealing? yes.