So MovieBob had some crap to say about that there Mass Effect 3 thingy...

MiloP

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...and he said it right here in this here video:

http://www.screwattack.com/shows/partners/game-overthinker/game-overthinker-episode-68-crass-effect

It's worth a watch, although I'll be waiting for everyone to say "But he didn't play it so invalid or something". Past that, he touches a bit on whether a player-driven/chosen narrative makes for good story telling and this whole entitlement thingy.

Just figured it would be interesting for those who haven't seen it, since MovieBob's tweets have been the source of some contention, I hear.
 

endtherapture

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I feel like I should just stop watching as soon as he said he hasn't played the games because if you haven't played or experienced the full journey, you have no idea how bad the ending is.

You can't comment on an issue on the internet properly if you haven't experienced it.

EDIT: Yeah he has no idea what he is going on about, saying by interacting with a medium, the story is of a worse quality than if you'd read it in a book/seen it in a film? Yeah. He is completely wrong.

EDIT2: He just called us all entitled. All gamers he called entitled. Being dissatisfied with a product =/= entitlement. Someone really needs to get this into thick idiot's skulls.

EDIT3: Bioware do owe the fans something. Their fans are their business. They have no fans = they sell no products. Bioware owe their livelihoods to fans, and the fans have been cheated out of a decent ending. Expect the next Bioware game to sell very poorly.

EDIT4: He needs to stop saying entitlement here. Gamers aren't entitled. They pay for their products. Maybe it's different for him and other critics cos they get free games/movies/etc. to review and stuff, but when you've spent £30 of your cash on a game, and it is overall shit, and you say it, you're not entitled.

EDIT5: I don't care if games are taken seriously. See Jimquisition on this. Most of the music I listen to (metalcore/hardcore/pop punk) isn't considered art by most people but I really don't give a shit. I like it, that's all that matters, I don't give a shit if some critic doesn't consider it art.

EDIT6: He just said we're entitled to ask for patches to fix "real problems". That is not entitlement. This dick has no idea what he's going on about.
 

Zhukov

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That was nowhere near as bad and/or vitriolic as I was expecting. I mean... he didn't even call us crybabies! I'm actually a little disappointed.

I agree with him on the "owe" business. Nobody owes us anything. The "games and gamers being taken seriously" stuff is horse shit though.

Also, since he hasn't played the games it's clear that he isn't aware of just how narratively broken the ending is, even if you ignore the choice business and the lack of closure.
 

endtherapture

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Zhukov said:
That was nowhere near as bad and/or vitriolic as I was expecting. I mean... he didn't even call us crybabies! I'm actually a little disappointed.

I agree with him on the "owe" business. Nobody owes us anything. The "games and gamers being taken seriously" stuff is horse shit though.

Also, since he hasn't played the games it's clear that he isn't aware of just how narratively broken the ending is, even if you ignore the choice business and the lack of closure.
I'm sick of "gamers being taken seriously" "games as an artform" etc. etc.

It's bullshit and who really cares. Honestly who gives a shit. If you enjoy it and think it's good why do you crave the validation of everyone else who thinks it's good?

It's pathetic. Gamers act like these little hipster kids who have this weird reclusive hobby so they crave the acceptance of others.

I don't care what other people think of the music I listen to. I also don't care what other people think of the games I play. This "taking gamers seriously" shit HAS to stop because it's making everyone look like fucking weak nerd kids being bullied.

EVERYONE plays games nowadays MovieBob. EVERYONE. My mum enjoys games. She knows what Skyrim is. Everyone knows what a DS is. Everyone knows who Mario is. Games are a part of popular culture now, they're not your little nerdy autistic hobby. You don't have to crave attention and make everyone think it's an artform because no ones cares. Games are here. That's it. End of.
 

Fappy

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endtherapture said:
Zhukov said:
That was nowhere near as bad and/or vitriolic as I was expecting. I mean... he didn't even call us crybabies! I'm actually a little disappointed.

I agree with him on the "owe" business. Nobody owes us anything. The "games and gamers being taken seriously" stuff is horse shit though.

Also, since he hasn't played the games it's clear that he isn't aware of just how narratively broken the ending is, even if you ignore the choice business and the lack of closure.
I'm sick of "gamers being taken seriously" "games as an artform" etc. etc.

It's bullshit and who really cares. Honestly who gives a shit. If you enjoy it and think it's good why do you crave the validation of everyone else who thinks it's good?

It's pathetic. Gamers act like these little hipster kids who have this weird reclusive hobby so they crave the acceptance of others.

I don't care what other people think of the music I listen to. I also don't care what other people think of the games I play. This "taking gamers seriously" shit HAS to stop because it's making everyone look like fucking weak nerd kids being bullied.

EVERYONE plays games nowadays MovieBob. EVERYONE. My mum enjoys games. She knows what Skyrim is. Everyone knows what a DS is. Everyone knows who Mario is. Games are a part of popular culture now, they're not your little nerdy autistic hobby. You don't have to crave attention and make everyone think it's an artform because no ones cares. Games are here. That's it. End of.
I make a similar argument when people call comic books "graphic novels" if they were not originally published in graphic novel form. Calling it a graphic novel doesn't automatically mean its a higher form of literature than a comic book. Just read what you want and haters can fuck off.
 

Savagezion

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MiloP said:
...and he said it right here in this here video:

http://www.screwattack.com/shows/partners/game-overthinker/game-overthinker-episode-68-crass-effect

It's worth a watch, although I'll be waiting for everyone to say "But he didn't play it so invalid or something". Past that, he touches a bit on whether a player-driven/chosen narrative makes for good story telling and this whole entitlement thingy.

Just figured it would be interesting for those who haven't seen it, since MovieBob's tweets have been the source of some contention, I hear.
I haven't watched the video, nor will I, but he is wrong.

According to your logic, this doesn't invalidate me.
 

Kahunaburger

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I like how MovieBob thinks the point of a video game narrative is to convey "the singular vision of the storyteller" and that "audience participation will make the story weaker." If he had been around when film was first developed, would he champion the use of cinema purely as a way to display text?

Also, obligatory Ferretbrain [http://www.ferretbrain.com/articles/article-848] link.
 

Soviet Heavy

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Gamers will be taken seriously when we say that we don't give a flying fuck about what other people think of our medium. Not when we get validated by someone else, but when we ignore them.
 

boag

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holy shit, how could Bioware do this?

The fans have now destroyed the entire artistic Integrity of Videogames forever.

Bob was right, you entitled whiny douches have poisoned videogames 4EVAR!!!!!


just look at how this DLC completely destroys the Biowares Masterpiece!!!!!!!



http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Arrival


Dont you just love how Hyperbole and Generalizations can be used to make even the most stupid comments sound incredibly alarmist?
 

Limecake

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endtherapture said:
I feel like I should just stop watching as soon as he said he hasn't played the games because if you haven't played or experienced the full journey, you have no idea how bad the ending is.

You can't comment on an issue on the internet properly if you haven't experienced it.
I hate this idea, I played through every Mass Effect game multiple times and I didn't hate the ending, I didn't think it was amazing but I was nowhere near as angry as many of the fans seem to be.

And just because he didn't play Mass Effect doesn't mean he hasn't noticed all the silly claims coming from both sides. several people (including myself) aren't saying that the ending was good, we're simply saying that the reaction to the ending is childish and petty.

EDIT: Yeah he has no idea what he is going on about, saying by interacting with a medium, the story is of a worse quality than if you'd read it in a book/seen it in a film? Yeah. He is completely wrong.
not at all, it's much easier to craft a linear story than an 'open ended' story. With a book or a film you have total control of what the audience is focused on, it's much easier to deliver emotion, foreshadowing and metaphors through the 'traditional' methods of art.

The characters in films/books are clear cut, they have their own emotions quirks and ways of thinking. When you play a character like Shepherd, you are that character, it's impossible for the developers to imagine exactly what your shepherd would do in a given situation, this is why we only have the 2 options (bad and good). Regardless of which choice you pick the majority of the game is written neutral so the same reactions to a good shepherd are the same as the reactions to an evil one.

Where games with distinct characters (Duke Nukem, Uncharted, Alan Wake) Have a much easier time creating a story because their character is a distinct personality, which allows them to craft a world suitable for them.


EDIT3: Bioware do owe the fans something. Their fans are their business. They have no fans = they sell no products. Bioware owe their livelihoods to fans, and the fans have been cheated out of a decent ending. Expect the next Bioware game to sell very poorly.
this is on the assumption that ever fan of Bioware was angry about the ending (or angry to the point of not buying any more games) The general consensus is that the ending was bad, but outside of a very vocal minority most people aren't going to write the whole company off for 10 minutes of cinematics in a 30+ hour game.

EDIT4: He needs to stop saying entitlement here. Gamers aren't entitled. They pay for their products. Maybe it's different for him and other critics cos they get free games/movies/etc. to review and stuff, but when you've spent £30 of your cash on a game, and it is overall shit, and you say it, you're not entitled.
No, complaining about things you spent money on is fine. It becomes entitlement when you start making demands for a new ending. I've said it before, You can be unhappy with the game, you can complain about the game. but you can't demand a new ending from bioware, spending $50 on a game doesn't give you a say in how the game is created/updated.

EDIT6: He just said we're entitled to ask for patches to fix "real problems". That is not entitlement. This dick has no idea what he's going on about.
problems like bug fixes and multiplayer updates, Patches are meant to fix problems from glitches (such as not being able to activate certain consoles, graphical errors and crash issues)

What the 'Retake Mass Effect' movement wants is a new ending (or more of the old one) this isn't a bug fix or a technical problem this is content and extremely sensitive content at that (if they fix it, they need to make sure it's better than before)

You also realize that any new content will be brought through DLC and not in the form of a patch, EA/Bioware will charge you for any new content produced (charge for their work? Preposterous!)
 

Asita

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MiloP said:
...and he said it right here in this here video:

http://www.screwattack.com/shows/partners/game-overthinker/game-overthinker-episode-68-crass-effect

It's worth a watch, although I'll be waiting for everyone to say "But he didn't play it so invalid or something". Past that, he touches a bit on whether a player-driven/chosen narrative makes for good story telling and this whole entitlement thingy.

Just figured it would be interesting for those who haven't seen it, since MovieBob's tweets have been the source of some contention, I hear.
Counterpoint:


The real meat of the argument starts at about 0:55, in case the intro turns you off, but the intro does provide the context for the speaker's initial statement. Commentary reflecting on MovieBob and company begins at about 5:20. Reaction to the whole "artistic integrity" bit starts at 7:40. Enjoy.

Though to give an idea of my reaction to Bob: First of all, he comits a faux pas that - as a reviewer - he really has no excuse to make: You do not review something you have not experienced. Subsequently, he presents strawman after strawman due to his failure to put adequate research into this piece, such as when he basically claimed that the open-endedness allowing for multiple paths rendered everything meaningless. Now first of all, this argument only holds up if you take it to absurd levels to the point of eschewing a plotline entirely - which is a design choice which can and actually worked in the past - and in the process flat-out ignores the existence of games with a similar concept like the critically acclaimed Heavy Rain (and more egregiously the fact that the Mass Effect franchise was built around the very concept he's disparaging, to great effect), and indeed, multiple paths can actually serve as commentary on a character's various states of mind as one could argue the dual endings of John Fowles' book The French Lieutenent's Woman did.

Then he goes into how fans "are demanding that the story change to fit their preferred whims", which really tells me that he hasn't even given the reaction that's the focus of this piece more than a passing glance, as by and large fans aren't saying "Make my ending" but instead "Bioware...we expect better of you. This was poorly executed, had about as many plotholes as Deception and ran contrary to the very themes the series has been hammering into us since the first installment. Please, take a mulligan and give the series an ending that doesn't feel like you forgot how to write".

Points 3-5 rather conveniently (though I'd venture to guess by accident rather than malice) ignore the more focal points for the "Bioware lied", which flat out stated in public releases that the ending wouldn't be as simple as choosing between "A, B or C" (hint: you are given up to three options which subsequently determine your ending), but even that is less of a glaring flaw then how the devs specifically claimed that the ending would offer closure (hint: it doesn't even have a denoument, instead ending within the climax) and that they would NOT give players a Lost-esque ending that raises more questions than it answered (Incidentally, the general concensus after the fact seems to be that it out-Losted Lost...more damningly still, the "Final Hours" content released implies that was a conscious decision).

Point 8 and 9...honestly, the points displayed read as if they were written as a characterization of the position from people determined to make them sound ridiculous, to the point that I honestly have trouble believing that they were actually expressed to him rather than simply being his interpretation of fan reaction.

Then there's the artistic integrity bit...which I think was addressed better in the video I linked than I could put it right now.

Long story short: he had a couple of decent points, but on the whole, I was not impressed.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Zhukov said:
That was nowhere near as bad and/or vitriolic as I was expecting. I mean... he didn't even call us crybabies! I'm actually a little disappointed.

I agree with him on the "owe" business. Nobody owes us anything. The "games and gamers being taken seriously" stuff is horse shit though.

Also, since he hasn't played the games it's clear that he isn't aware of just how narratively broken the ending is, even if you ignore the choice business and the lack of closure.
Agreed. He was surprisingly restrained and, I dare say, reasonable. The fact that Bioware owes us nothing is dead on, but I fail to see how we are jeopardizing the medium as an artistic platform.
 

Avatar Roku

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Kahunaburger said:
I like how MovieBob thinks the point of a video game narrative is to convey "the singular vision of the storyteller" and that "audience participation will make the story weaker." If he had been around when film was first developed, would he champion the use of cinema purely as a way to display text?

Also, obligatory Ferretbrain [http://www.ferretbrain.com/articles/article-848] link.
Ok, that was probably the best analogy on this subject I have heard.
 

TorchofThanatos

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MovieBob is right!
I played and enjoyed the game that I bought.
They owe me nothing and I own nothing!
Complaining is one thing but a retake Mass Effect fundraiser! Really! at least the money went to something good but still. Fan can't retake something that was never ours in the first place. It should never be ours!
If fans controlled video games we would run them into the ground. Why? Because we hate change!
 

jklinders

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endtherapture said:
I feel like I should just stop watching as soon as he said he hasn't played the games because if you haven't played or experienced the full journey, you have no idea how bad the ending is.

You can't comment on an issue on the internet properly if you haven't experienced it.

EDIT: Yeah he has no idea what he is going on about, saying by interacting with a medium, the story is of a worse quality than if you'd read it in a book/seen it in a film? Yeah. He is completely wrong.

EDIT2: He just called us all entitled. All gamers he called entitled. Being dissatisfied with a product =/= entitlement. Someone really needs to get this into thick idiot's skulls.

EDIT3: Bioware do owe the fans something. Their fans are their business. They have no fans = they sell no products. Bioware owe their livelihoods to fans, and the fans have been cheated out of a decent ending. Expect the next Bioware game to sell very poorly.

EDIT4: He needs to stop saying entitlement here. Gamers aren't entitled. They pay for their products. Maybe it's different for him and other critics cos they get free games/movies/etc. to review and stuff, but when you've spent £30 of your cash on a game, and it is overall shit, and you say it, you're not entitled.

EDIT5: I don't care if games are taken seriously. See Jimquisition on this. Most of the music I listen to (metalcore/hardcore/pop punk) isn't considered art by most people but I really don't give a shit. I like it, that's all that matters, I don't give a shit if some critic doesn't consider it art.

EDIT6: He just said we're entitled to ask for patches to fix "real problems". That is not entitlement. This dick has no idea what he's going on about.
I agree completely.

Bob has dipped his foot into this three times now. Each time he has demonstrated his complete ignorance of the topic. While he is technically right that ME is Bioware and EAs to do with as they see fit but he is a blithering idiot to discuss this without having any investment into it at all and trying to compare gaming and other forms of media using the same criteria.

And Bob, and whoever else. It's not entitlement. Stop using that word.
 

Slayer_2

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endtherapture said:
EDIT3: Bioware do owe the fans something. Their fans are their business. They have no fans = they sell no products. Bioware owe their livelihoods to fans, and the fans have been cheated out of a decent ending. Expect the next Bioware game to sell very poorly.
Wrong. The mainstream market probably accounts for a far larger percentage of sales than the hardcore gamers. Also, once you've purchased the game, they legally have no obligation to you. Of any kind. Posts like this are why people are complaining about "gamer entitlement".
 

Waaghpowa

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Soviet Heavy said:
Gamers will be taken seriously when we say that we don't give a flying fuck about what other people think of our medium. Not when we get validated by someone else, but when we ignore them.
Basically this, coupled with "We can't sit back and let publishers think they can get away with screwing people".

Also checked the comments before watching, the fact that he admits he hasn't played it changed my mine about watching it.
 

Sniper Team 4

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See, I can't watch it. I couldn't watch his recent "The Big Picture" either because I saw it was about Mass Effect. They'll make me too angry at him, and it's not worth getting upset over someone else's opinion. Especially on the internet. I don't like being called a 'crybaby' just because I'm unhappy about Mass Effect 3's ending. I haven't signed a petition or sent hate mail or anything. The way I'm dealing with it is to write my own ending. But I just feel like he's insulting me personally with the name calling, even if it's not directed at me.

As for him not playing the game but still having an opinion, I believe he did a show a while back where he stated very clearly why people who have never played/seen/read or know anything about a certain topic are still perfectly allowed to have opinions and voice them. So I keep that in mind and just try to avoid anything he has to say about Mass Effect 3.