Spanish Judges Liken File Sharing to Lending Books

[Reverend Del]

your logic is complete bullshit. ill explain this: for game developers, thier work is thier baby. you know how long it takes to simply model ONLY a good face? well it took me 12 hours. i did it last week. thats not counting the many hours to rig your model and animate it. programming a simple program to index through a database takes F*#@ing hours. for you to STEAL their work and try to rationalize it by saying "oh im making potential sales" is complete bullshit. buy the game or gtFo of my internet.

/quote tree

Your attitude here is one of complete closed mindedness, and frankly it disgusts me as much as any close mindedness does. Yes the now flaming gentleman, yes the one you appear to have soaked in parafin and set alight, has flawed logic. I'd wager that most that pirate do not buy, why would they? I mean, they have the game/song/movie/TV series why then shell out for a hard copy of the same? Frankly that attitude isn't kosher either.

In this society it does take from those that create and those that have the capability to publish on the scale needed to get it out to the masses. That all costs, and then you have to add money on so the folks that made it can eat and live afterward. But once those costs are met, why the need to make more money on top of that? Why not, once enough money has been made, make the games free ware? Don't set a date, because folks will simply wait, but set targets. Cost to develop, in hours and money, plus cost to publish, plus an extra on top. Once target is met then boom product goes free. Wonder how much piracy that would cut out if buying it meant eventually it would go free?

 

[joshthor]

your logic is complete bullshit. ill explain this: for game developers, thier work is thier baby. you know how long it takes to simply model ONLY a good face? well it took me 12 hours. i did it last week. thats not counting the many hours to rig your model and animate it. programming a simple program to index through a database takes F*#@ing hours. for you to STEAL their work and try to rationalize it by saying "oh im making potential sales" is complete bullshit. buy the game or gtFo of my internet.

/quote tree

Your attitude here is one of complete closed mindedness, and frankly it disgusts me as much as any close mindedness does. Yes the now flaming gentleman, yes the one you appear to have soaked in parafin and set alight, has flawed logic. I'd wager that most that pirate do not buy, why would they? I mean, they have the game/song/movie/TV series why then shell out for a hard copy of the same? Frankly that attitude isn't kosher either.

In this society it does take from those that create and those that have the capability to publish on the scale needed to get it out to the masses. That all costs, and then you have to add money on so the folks that made it can eat and live afterward. But once those costs are met, why the need to make more money on top of that? Why not, once enough money has been made, make the games free ware? Don't set a date, because folks will simply wait, but set targets. Cost to develop, in hours and money, plus cost to publish, plus an extra on top. Once target is met then boom product goes free. Wonder how much piracy that would cut out if buying it meant eventually it would go free?

your idea is great, but anyone could tell you in practice it would not work. if people knew it would become free, there would be little to no incentive to buy it, other than "imma be the first of my freinds to play it" also, gaming companies use the profits to make more games, hence why the gaming industry has been growing massively.

also, i may be closed minded, but i am in the right.

 

[poiuppx]

...uh... what? So the response by judges to over-reaction to piracy by governments and business... is to over-react in the OPPOSITE direction and declare it's not only not a crime, it's having absolutely no negative impact and is no different than me loaning my old copy of Asimov's Foundation to a friend.

I... is... wait... did logic give up and walk away from the world when I wasn't looking? This isn't a black and white issue... the choices aren't 'Piracy will end reality' and 'It's no different than sharing a package of Oreos with a friend'. And ironically, now both viewpoints have legal standings in this great world of ours.

 

[Shadowtalon]

I'm seeing too many people on the pirates side of things, so answer this question: If piracy is legal, why should I buy games? If there's no reason I should buy games, why should anyone make them, or at least put the same amount of effort into them that they do today?

 

[Unesh52]

I'm sure everyone else has been saying it, but fuck reading all those posts, I'll just be redundant!

It's not the same as lending books because when you lend out a book you can't keep it as well. Copyright laws, obviously, deal with who has the right to copy and distribute intellectual property. If it was only one MP3 that somehow could never be copied, then sharing it would not be a problem.

On a side note, I'm not actually against file sharing (that is, I'm not against music piracy), but that is an argument for another day.

 

[poiuppx]

FUCK YEAH!! Finally someone standing up for what's right, about god damn time! Someone tell me where these guys live, I want to go repaint their houses, inside and out, in any color they want, all on my own dime.

sooo... let me get this: whats right is whenever someone create something that can be converted to digital media, he should be denied any reward for his/her effort?

how do you expect developers to create games/digital tools/etc anymore if this is the way the world will become?

the general idea of piracy is ok: information you dont have access to (because of either lack of money/geological boundaries/lack of time) becomes accessable, in a lesser state than the original material. fine. but what if all pirated information becomes top quality? we would reach a halt in technological development. just look at the blow pc-gaming have suffered, with all the DMRs.

the problem is that when piracy becomes so accessible its easier to DL a movie than actually go down to the shop and pick it up FOR FREE, weve reached a point were society will start to enter a depression. im all for being able to download stuff, but what you download should either be:
-of worse quality than the product you pay for
-be a real hassle getting a hold on

as long as at least one of these apply, piracy wont be a HUGE problem. the moment we reach a point where none of these applies, we should start banning piracy, big time. and were closing in fast on that point...

Get it out of your god damn head right now that piracy = loss of sale, cause that's a lie, most pirates either A)don't have the money to buy the game, or the game is a known piece of shite they intend to give to their child (any of those 20 dollar princess type games for the DS) or B) only intend to test teh game for a time before deciding if it is crap or good enough to buy. I'm a pirate, and I only pirate DS games, but I also talk about the games I play on forums and stuff so as to advertise the games I felt were good enough to talk about, shit will be left in the dust and good games will be spoken of, I talked to several people about the game Dementium 2 and at least five people I mentioned it to shown a real interest in playing it, they not being pirates themselves would have to buy the game, therefore I generated a potential 5 sales to people who had never eve heard of it. Piracy could be a really good thing. Also pokemon platinum has been downloaded at least 400,000 times on this one site I go to, but it has sold millions world wide, do you really think that the 400,000 really affected the total outcome? How many kids probably bought the game release day anyways even though they could have gotten it for free hours later? Fact, gaming industries are lying assholes who want you to think that piracy is going to ruin them, also fact, they are trying to pay their own incredibly huge wages while producing products that are normally sub par at best.
Also what if I miss one of those shows on like fox that they only play once and then you have to wait for reruns in about two years, is piracy so bad then?

If one person buys the game for $50 and distributes it for free to 10 people how much money is earned?

If the 10 people recommend it to 5 friends a piece who are not pirates and who like to buy the same type of games they do for $50 each, how much more money has been made? See my logic?

No, because your hoping that the twats who illegally downloaded it arent going to just pass it to their "friends" themselves and make there "friends" buy the game.

and I'm calling done, I'm done with this thread, attempting to convince you people that anti piracy is stupid and many copy right laws along with it is like attempting to convince people that lolicon hentai isn't pedophillia, you've been fucked with by the media into thinking whatever they want you to think and you can enjoy baaaaaing you single minded BS without free thinking opposers like me saying much any more, it doesn't matter, what you think, and what they do, people will pirate, and that's all there is to it, discussion is pointless. farewell.

your logic is complete bullshit. ill explain this: for game developers, thier work is thier baby. you know how long it takes to simply model ONLY a good face? well it took me 12 hours. i did it last week. thats not counting the many hours to rig your model and animate it. programming a simple program to index through a database takes F*#@ing hours. for you to STEAL their work and try to rationalize it by saying "oh im making potential sales" is complete bullshit. buy the game or gtFo of my internet.

FIRST, it isn't YOUR internet to tell me to get off of so FUCK YOU IN THE ASS. Second, I'm an author in training, and I know that there are a LOT of pirated books, but the way I see it is at least someone LIKED it. I don't get defensive and I'm not about sales. I can understand you POV but don't get pissy with ME, just because I pirate some ds games, I don't do big time piracy like PS2 or 360 games and like I said, I will BUY A GAME, assuming your "baby" isn't a fugly ineffective piece of shit. As stated, I'm the consumer, if you are making a game to satisfy your own needs to do something, then don't sell it to begin with, you options are to make it fun and user friendly and hope I buy it, or to SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT YOUR CRAPPY ASS GAME. There is no middle, if it sucks it sucks, if it's good I'll buy it. Unfortunately a lot of shitty games are made with cool sounding titles and the get sequels where as good games are thrown by the way side because they don't sound interesting enough. Also I can play games released ONLY IN JAPAN because there are translators out there who are willing to make them english FOR FREE. So fuck you, pirates spend time on this shit too, maybe if games weren't so FUCKING expensive people would buy them, but all people care about is money money god damn money.

You seem passionate about this. Or, no, wait, you seem disproportionately angry about this.

 

[Kanodin0]

FIRST, it isn't YOUR internet to tell me to get off of so FUCK YOU IN THE ASS. Second, I'm an author in training, and I know that there are a LOT of pirated books, but the way I see it is at least someone LIKED it. I don't get defensive and I'm not about sales. I can understand you POV but don't get pissy with ME, just because I pirate some ds games, I don't do big time piracy like PS2 or 360 games and like I said, I will BUY A GAME, assuming your "baby" isn't a fugly ineffective piece of shit. As stated, I'm the consumer, if you are making a game to satisfy your own needs to do something, then don't sell it to begin with, you options are to make it fun and user friendly and hope I buy it, or to SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT YOUR CRAPPY ASS GAME. There is no middle, if it sucks it sucks, if it's good I'll buy it. Unfortunately a lot of shitty games are made with cool sounding titles and the get sequels where as good games are thrown by the way side because they don't sound interesting enough. Also I can play games released ONLY IN JAPAN because there are translators out there who are willing to make them english FOR FREE. So fuck you, pirates spend time on this shit too, maybe if games weren't so FUCKING expensive people would buy them, but all people care about is money money god damn money.

For someone who claims to not care about justifications, you certainly seem to have a lot of them. You can make these claims about quality all you like, but a product being inferior in no way means it's acceptable to illegally acquire it.

/quote tree

Your attitude here is one of complete closed mindedness, and frankly it disgusts me as much as any close mindedness does. Yes the now flaming gentleman, yes the one you appear to have soaked in parafin and set alight, has flawed logic. I'd wager that most that pirate do not buy, why would they? I mean, they have the game/song/movie/TV series why then shell out for a hard copy of the same? Frankly that attitude isn't kosher either.

In this society it does take from those that create and those that have the capability to publish on the scale needed to get it out to the masses. That all costs, and then you have to add money on so the folks that made it can eat and live afterward. But once those costs are met, why the need to make more money on top of that? Why not, once enough money has been made, make the games free ware? Don't set a date, because folks will simply wait, but set targets. Cost to develop, in hours and money, plus cost to publish, plus an extra on top. Once target is met then boom product goes free. Wonder how much piracy that would cut out if buying it meant eventually it would go free?

I'm afraid I didn't follow part of that, would you kindly explain what he said that was so reprehensible and why? Beyond that while it would certainly be nice if people were willing to forgo further profits to help others and do good, I fail to see why they should have to do so just to pacify people who plunder their product.

 

[Quesa]

Just imagine how fantastic the interwebs will be when no one produces anything and we all share in the bounty of nothing What a utopia *sighs dreamily*

 

[Legendsmith]

your logic is complete bullshit. ill explain this: for game developers, thier work is thier baby. you know how long it takes to simply model ONLY a good face? well it took me 12 hours. i did it last week. thats not counting the many hours to rig your model and animate it. programming a simple program to index through a database takes F*#@ing hours. for you to STEAL their work and try to rationalize it by saying "oh im making potential sales" is complete bullshit. buy the game or gtFo of my internet.

/quote tree

Your attitude here is one of complete closed mindedness, and frankly it disgusts me as much as any close mindedness does. Yes the now flaming gentleman, yes the one you appear to have soaked in parafin and set alight, has flawed logic. I'd wager that most that pirate do not buy, why would they? I mean, they have the game/song/movie/TV series why then shell out for a hard copy of the same? Frankly that attitude isn't kosher either.

In this society it does take from those that create and those that have the capability to publish on the scale needed to get it out to the masses. That all costs, and then you have to add money on so the folks that made it can eat and live afterward. But once those costs are met, why the need to make more money on top of that? Why not, once enough money has been made, make the games free ware? Don't set a date, because folks will simply wait, but set targets. Cost to develop, in hours and money, plus cost to publish, plus an extra on top. Once target is met then boom product goes free. Wonder how much piracy that would cut out if buying it meant eventually it would go free?

None, because how many people would wait until it becomes free?
Answer: Almost everyone. I certainly would if I knew I could eventually get an $80 game for free. There goes the profit.

Anyway, that extra profit? That's used to make the next game.

 

[Danpascooch]

I hope some big wigs in the industries followed this case. And I hope they decide to end piracy since obviously they aren't going to find any legal help whatsoever. Just shut her down. Oh that big game you have been waiting for is set to be released next month? Haha not anymore. Maybe that would put an end to this piracy doesn't hurt anyone nonsense when it starts hurting all of us.

I don't like to insult people, so I won't, but I feel like I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't let you know that this post makes no sense.

First of all, no "bigwig" wants piracy, you've heard of DRM right? (you can't really use this site without hearing about it constantly) that's them trying to end it.

Secondly, if they prevented piracy by not releasing games anymore, how would that be beneficial to them? They'd be saying "HAHA! No more piracy....wait...FUCK! WE HAVE NO SOURCE OF INCOME ANYMORE!!!"

Your solution is akin to ending AIDS by blowing up the Earth, sure it ends it, but it destroys everything that made it relevant, and caused a much more massive problem than it solved.

I am well aware of how that would play out. I know that you would be cutting of the leg in hopes of saving the toe. I also know it would never happen. I just find it somewhat depressing that this is the only hope they have left of ending piracy. And frankly incorporating ridiculous DRMs is not doing them much more good than just closing the doors down. Just look what it has done to Ubisoft's reputation.

Or they could just live with the fact that some Piracy is going to happen, and stop making DRM that DRIVES PEOPLE TO PIRACY! Thus raising their profits by cutting out an expensive piece of development while simultaneously lowering piracy rates.

Why should they have to live with it? Why are they not being afforded any legal protection? Why is everyone else safe but games are thrown to the wolves and it is ok?

They sue people for millions of dollars who only pirated thousands of dollars of software.

There's their legal protection, they are afforded the same protection every other group has when their copyrights are infringed, they want extra special treatment.

 

[shaboinkin]

People saying p2p sites are not like a library. It's just a modern version of a library.

Suppose libraries in the future have a sort of ebook database? With kindles and shit like that getting more popular, you might be able to have the ebook connected to the library's database, check out a book and have it temporary downloaded to the ebook and after that time period passes, it automatically gets deleted.

It could happen...

 

[Loonerinoes]

I am amazed. And here I was thinking that every judicial system would cave in to the pressures of the MPAA and other Hollywood-based agencies that consistently lobby their government to put pressure on European countries.

I wonder if this might set a precedent...but possibly not. The law and especially justice can become shaky things when big money gets involved, as always.

 

[Akai Shizuku]

Looks like Spain is a little more socialist than I thought.

 

[Danpascooch]

Obviously the pirates see a big difference, otherwise they would just be mailing the games around instead of working their asses off to crack games so they can be copied and distributed online. "convenience" is a very powerful force, and the ability to distribute the game to millions of people simultaneously is more than a little past "convenience"

For example, when Sims 3 was put on Pirate Bay, it got millions of downloads (over 2 million), let's say each person played it for a week, in that case, it would take 38,357 years to lend it out to all those people.

So yeah, it makes a pretty fucking huge difference.

That said, I personally support Piracy.

Err, not quite. There's a giant misconception here, not to mention you forgot some numbers. Namely, that EA said that Sims 3 had the best PC sales launch ever, despite the leak. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sims_3]

You forget my point, I'm not arguing that the Sims 3 wasn't successful, nor am I arguing that pirating is wrong, so that link and fact you presented is irrelevant.

All I am arguing is that it is not the same as lending out a library book, because through copying, you can achieve the type of distribution that you would never be able to by repeatedly loaning a single copy.

That's all I said, to be honest, I support the idea of file sharing.

 

[Mad World]

While I like internet freedom I don't really see the parallel to lending books as you still keep your copy of it, and it is sent to lots of different people who don't give it back.

I agree; I don't see how it is the same, really.

In my opinion, it can easily be used as a loophole for people wanting to illegally obtain movies, songs, etc.

 

[Danpascooch]

A panel of three judges has declared that, because the site did not actually host the files and didn't make money directly as a result of copyright infringement, no actual crime took place.

Isn't this the EXACT same ruling given in the Pirate Bay case?

Pirate Bay actually does host the files.

Alright then.

People on this site need to read and realize that this isn't some major fist-pump for pirac- I mean, file sharing.

Why not? As far as pirates are concerned, isn't this a major victory?

 

[Jamash]

I get the impression these judges aren't particularly computer savvy.

What ever could have given you that impression?

Oh, maybe the fact that one of the judges said that people have been sharing movies since Ancient times!

"Since ancient times there has been the loan or sale of books, movies, music and more." the judges ruled.

Yes Judge, I believe it was the Ancient Greeks who first perfected the art of recording video onto film, and since those ancient times mankind has enjoyed copying and sharing films with each other, right up until Medieval times when the Templar Order of the Federation Against Copyright Theft rode forth from their castles and slaughtered entire armies of video pirates across Europe, plunging mankind into the Dark Ages.

I know Judges are supposed to be somewhat out of touch, but can they really get away with making such a blatant factual error?

I just hope it's a mistranslation of Spanish to English, and not an example of the Judge's knowledge on the matter.

 

[Danpascooch]

A panel of three judges has declared that, because the site did not actually host the files and didn't make money directly as a result of copyright infringement, no actual crime took place.

Isn't this the EXACT same ruling given in the Pirate Bay case?

Pirate Bay actually does host the files.

The only thing the pirate bay hosts are small 'pointer' files that tell a file sharing application where to find an actual file. A company may hold copyright over their game, but they can't hold copyright over a line of code pointing to a network of computers which have that game installed. Therefor, the Pirate Bay doesn't break the law; they only facilitate file sharing, they don't host copyrighted files.

Erm... no. File sharing is NOTHING like lending books. In fact it is more like the exact opposite of lending books. -_-

Agreed, this is like teaming up with 50 friends to buy a book by paying 2 pence each, then photocopying it and keeping a copy each. I think any sane judge would see that THAT is 'wrong', why can they not see it when it's digital media? It blows the mind...

Ah, thank you for clearing that up, so Pirate Bay is similar to TVLinks in that sense.

Anyway, I agree the "lending a book" analogy is fundamentally flawed in more ways than one, but still I support file sharing overall.

 

[slowpoke999]

Now if only more countries will have the same verdict as those judges...