Speed Runner Beats Ocarina of Time in Less Than 19 Minutes

DrOswald

New member
Apr 22, 2011
1,443
0
0
RJ 17 said:
That's what people mean by "the spirit of the game". The spirit of that Yoshi's Island level is to be exceedingly challenging specifically because the level scrolls at its own pace, meaning you have to perform a balancing act while riding on Poochy. The spirit of that level isn't to go so high that the game's trigger doesn't kick in allowing you to beat the level at your own pace. The spirit of OOT is to complete a, as you put it, MST run...not to pass through what's supposed to be a solid and sealed door to skip straight to the end of the game.
SilverStuddedSquirre said:
On the subject of going over walls in Mario Brothers: You remember world 1-2 in Mario Bros. 1 ? Going over /above/behind walls is an established piece of Mario Bros mechanics and lore. See also Mario 3, where Intentionally Programmed "wall clipping" on White blocks only, allowed you to obtain The Warp Whistle (already discussed) or access hidden areas, that were put there deliberately. If in a Mario Bros game, you can go over a wall, they know. They probably put it there. That is why the game does not glitch.
And here we see the point. Two people, both with perfectly logical reasons, have come to the opposite conclusion on what is cheating or against "the spirit of the game" in speed running a game. But who is to make the call on if it is allowed? Which one of you is right? This is why the categories in speed running are defined as they are, to eliminate confusion. This is why the Any% category is always what is strictly possible in the game by the rules as coded. After that we have categories based on completion, following what is perceived as the original intent of the game, or some other point of significance (usually done to increase difficulty or make it more fun to watch.)

For the record, we know that the 1-e skip was not known by the developer or intended, but there is strong reason to believe that if they had discovered it they would have left it in or even rewarded the player for finding it.

RJ 17 said:
Ha-ha! He didn't land on the bonus flower at the end! :p
This is actually intentional. If you watch a good speed runner do that level he will never hit the flower at the end. The mini game takes about 30 seconds so they skip it. The key is that the flower roulette is not random, it is based on how much time has passed from when the ring was spawned to when you enter the ring. Nearly every level in Yoshi's island has a technique to skip the bonus game. Many are simple. Some are difficult or unreliable. Each must be individually memorized.

P.S. I used to be in the camp that highly glitched runs were not legitimate. But as I got more and more into speed running I began to understand why the categories are setup the way they are. I personally think the any% run of OOT is boring and a bit silly. I much prefer the MST run because it is far more interesting. But I no longer see the any% run as any less legitimate. Fair warning though: if you go look up the MST run expecting a typical playthough, you are going to have a different thing coming. That run is glitched to hell and back. As are all OOT runs with the possible exception of glitchless, which is just full of minor glitches.
 
Oct 20, 2010
424
0
0
Madmonk12345 said:
RJ 17 said:
You keep saying supposed to. However, for many games, they weren't meant to be played quickly at all. they were meant to be explored. If someone speedruns skyrim, are they inherently missing the point and therefore don't deserve accreditations or rewards or praise for their work? There is no timer in OoT. It isn't a race, so why should anyone be speedrunning it at all? Why should a glitchless runner receive accolades or appreciation, for they are doing things they aren't supposed to be doing by going through it quickly at all? The game wasn't supposed to be speed run in the first place, and thusly using how the game was supposed to be played shouldn't factor into it at all.

What? No. What? No, no no. If Somebody were to Speed run Skyrim, all they need to do is the Main Quests. Specifically Ignoring all sidequests, factions and such, and Merely Beat the game without Glitching to the End boss and Milking His Prostate. What about that is Unclear? Go beat only the main quests, and do it as fast as possible. Fully within the Spirit of The Game. Maybe you ONLY want to play as the Dragonborn - Go to town! That's Elder Scrolls for ya.

And I am curious as to what you mean by "intended to be speedrun?" name me one game that IS.
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
8,687
0
0
DrOswald said:
And here we see the point. Two people, both with perfectly logical reasons, have come to the opposite conclusion on what is cheating or against "the spirit of the game" in speed running a game. But who is to make the call on if it is allowed? Which one of you is right? This is why the categories in speed running are defined as they are, to eliminate confusion. This is why the Any% category is always what is strictly possible in the game by the rules as coded. After that we have categories based on completion, following what is perceived as the original intent of the game, or some other point of significance (usually done to increase difficulty or make it more fun to watch.)
And as I said, I understand that there's different categories of speed-runs. As I've been trying to tell Gxas, my entire point with all this is simply to express that I find speed-runs like this one to be not very impressive. It's just my opinion on the matter, and I've been explaining the reasoning behind my opinion with this discussion about what is and isn't cheating. To clarify, everything I've been talking about is simply what I consider to be cheating. Obviously that definition is going to vary from person to person, but the purpose behind my posts has simply been to explain just what my definition of cheating is.

Beyond that, I'm clearly always right about everything, so there. :p

For the record, we know that the 1-e skip was not known by the developer or intended, but there is strong reason to believe that if they had discovered it they would have left it in or even rewarded the player for finding it.
I do have to disagree with this, though. If the developers had known about this trick, it's likely they would have put one of the stair-bubbles to make getting to the "roof" of that level easier once you get to a certain point. Or, as you said, they would have rewarded you in some way by putting a bunch of 1-ups up there or something.

RJ 17 said:
Ha-ha! He didn't land on the bonus flower at the end! :p
This is actually intentional. If you watch a good speed runner do that level he will never hit the flower at the end. The mini game takes about 30 seconds so they skip it. The key is that the flower roulette is not random, it is based on how much time has passed from when the ring was spawned to when you enter the ring. Nearly every level in Yoshi's island has a technique to skip the bonus game. Many are simple. Some are difficult or unreliable. Each must be individually memorized.
That was just me being a dick, as I tried to express with my use of ":p" I'm just trying to make this conversation a little more light-hearted since apparently Gxas believes that I'm seething with rage over here. Again, I assure you, I am not.
 

Gxas

New member
Sep 4, 2008
3,187
0
0
RJ 17 said:
I'm sorry, and here I thought the entire point of having an open forum such as this was specifically so that people could share their opinions. By your logic, why bother having comment sections for any of these articles at all?
My wonder is to why bother even leaving a negative opinion at all. I do see that negative opinions drove discussion here, but why can't we talk about other ways to shave a few seconds off of his time instead of have the first post basically say, "I don't like this."?

The comparison between games and real life is to show the difference between what is and isn't cheating, what is "within the spirit of the game" and what isn't (since that was a question specifically asked of my by DrOswald). It's not "within the spirit of the mile-run" to cut between the cones, but because there's no physical barrier actually stopping you from doing so that certainly doesn't mean that you can't just cut between the cones. This is a direct comparison to the game world. It's not "within the spirit of OOT" to be able to back through what's supposed to be a solid wall, but because of a glitch in the coding there's no physical barrier there stopping you from doing so.
But who dictates what the "spirit of the game" is? I would claim that the spirit of the game, by the developers' standards is to have fun. The "spirit of the game" in the speedrunning community is to beat the final boss as fast as possible using rules they have set up for each category of speedrun. If Cosmo has fun with his speed runs, then I'd say he met both requirements. But, again, I am no one to say what the "spirit of the game" is, that is just how I perceive it to be.

I do find it rather humorous, though, that despite my telling you that all this hub-bub is simply me stating "I'm not impressed with this, and here is why I'm not impressed with this" equates to me being frustrated or angry...especially after I just specifically said that I'm not. Don't mistake my passionate explanations as being fueled by anger.
Misunderstanding of intent through text on the internet. It happens.

Perhaps a better question is why do you care so much that I don't find this to be impressive? Why does my opinion on the matter offend you so?
Who said I was offended?

Or provoke such a profound curiosity within you? Why do you assume that I'm angry/frustrated about the way this person plays the game, and not simply unimpressed by the way this person plays the game as I've claimed numerous times now? Who gets to dictate what I find to be impressive? You? Why you? Why can't you simply say "I can see why some people wouldn't find this impressive"? So I'll turn your own question back onto you: does my finding this run to be unimpressive affect you in any way? If not, why should you care? Why bother commenting on any of my posts in the first place?
I don't understand why this needs to be here. I told you why I am curious about it. I see all over the place that people leave negative comments on everything. The need to say, "I dislike this" is rampant everywhere nowadays, and I want to know what the reasoning for this is.

I was like that too, though. I used to just spout, "God, I hate that" to everything. Now? I've been working very hard to keep my negative opinions to myself. If you ask me, I will tell you, but I'm not going around putting things down anymore.

It's a curiosity about human nature nowadays. I want to know why we're so focused on negativity, especially online. What makes it so difficult to just pass up a thread that people have a negative opinion on? That's why I'm here.

SilverStuddedSquirre said:
Just because a Glitch exists, and I can exploit it, that does not mean it is not cheating. You see in Real Life, the rules do not actually stop people from cheating. They punish them for it by taking away Medals, removing acclaim and Titles, and denoting their "Exploits" with *does not really count.
The asterisk that you are looking for is located in the "any%" label that his speedrun has attached to it. He beat the game *at any percent.

Nobody is decrying the Validity of Speed Running, we are simply asserting that THIS one, did not in fact do what the Title of The Article, and the Runner, claimed.
Again, who decrees what "beating the game" entails if not the people who are creating the rules for the competition? By the any% speedrunning community, beating the game means getting to the final frame of gameplay before the "end" screen.

If you are looking for an addendum to the title saying that he skipped 90% of the game, you kind of already have it, since "less than 19 minutes" is in the title. Anyone who came into this thread not expecting a glitched speedrun really needs to think a bit before they read an article. It is not misleading in the slightest.
 
Oct 20, 2010
424
0
0
RJ 17's point and my own are Complimentary, not Contradictory. You will note that I mentioned that the Mario Franchise has long established traditions of going out of bounds in a Level. The only glitch I see in that Yoshi level is stopping the auto-scroll. Something I have NEVER seen in a Mario title. To clarify: going around/behind walls in Mario, not cheating. Often part of the game. GLITCHING the auto scroller so you can go over the wall as slow as you like, cheating.

I bet you can still go over that wall without glitching the game. Is it hard? Oh probably.

The Legend of Zelda Does not have a history of this. In fact I think this kind of thing stared with OOT. Every release of it had SOME glitch, like the endless Gerudo Canyon Hookshot Ride. You are in no way supposed to be able to manipulate poor transition Coding as a game Mechanic: Link is not a Hacker, he's a Slasher.
 

Vivi22

New member
Aug 22, 2010
2,300
0
0
RJ 17 said:
Seriously...how is this supposed to be impressive? You beat a game really fast by exploiting a glitch...that's just another way of cheating. This is no more impressive than those videos of people beating Mario 64 with no stars in under 5 minutes. This doesn't show talent as a gamer, it shows talent as a glitcher. I fail to see how beating a game while glitching is worthy of holding a "record"...it's like someone that everyone knows was on steroids setting a weight-lifting record. This is literally two cheaters going back and forth saying "I can cheat better than you!" "Nuh-uhhhhh!"

Why not just hack the cartridge so that as soon as Navi wakes you up you're fighting Ganon fully equipped and ready to go? That would be just as meaningful as this.
I find few things as hilarious as people who think that other people playing single player games should adhere to imaginary rules they've made up for themselves.

One of the only things funnier is people who do it in multiplayer.
 

DrOswald

New member
Apr 22, 2011
1,443
0
0
RJ 17 said:
DrOswald said:
And here we see the point. Two people, both with perfectly logical reasons, have come to the opposite conclusion on what is cheating or against "the spirit of the game" in speed running a game. But who is to make the call on if it is allowed? Which one of you is right? This is why the categories in speed running are defined as they are, to eliminate confusion. This is why the Any% category is always what is strictly possible in the game by the rules as coded. After that we have categories based on completion, following what is perceived as the original intent of the game, or some other point of significance (usually done to increase difficulty or make it more fun to watch.)
And as I said, I understand that there's different categories of speed-runs. As I've been trying to tell Gxas, my entire point with all this is simply to express that I find speed-runs like this one to be not very impressive. It's just my opinion on the matter, and I've been explaining the reasoning behind my opinion with this discussion about what is and isn't cheating. To clarify, everything I've been talking about is simply what I consider to be cheating. Obviously that definition is going to vary from person to person, but the purpose behind my posts has simply been to explain just what my definition of cheating is.

Beyond that, I'm clearly always right about everything, so there. :p

For the record, we know that the 1-e skip was not known by the developer or intended, but there is strong reason to believe that if they had discovered it they would have left it in or even rewarded the player for finding it.
I do have to disagree with this, though. If the developers had known about this trick, it's likely they would have put one of the stair-bubbles to make getting to the "roof" of that level easier once you get to a certain point. Or, as you said, they would have rewarded you in some way by putting a bunch of 1-ups up there or something.
There is actually another point in the game where they discovered a really big skip before the game was released and made a special Easter egg out of it. If you have ever played yoshi's island you will know that the bosses are all magically powered up versions of normal enemies. In 3-8 you can hit the normal enemy before it is powered up, killing it. They discovered this and realized this would lock the game up. Instead of preventing the player killing the boss this way they built around it. The skip happens at about 3:20 in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE1mb6W6pvI

RJ 17 said:
Ha-ha! He didn't land on the bonus flower at the end! :p
This is actually intentional. If you watch a good speed runner do that level he will never hit the flower at the end. The mini game takes about 30 seconds so they skip it. The key is that the flower roulette is not random, it is based on how much time has passed from when the ring was spawned to when you enter the ring. Nearly every level in Yoshi's island has a technique to skip the bonus game. Many are simple. Some are difficult or unreliable. Each must be individually memorized.
That was just me being a dick, as I tried to express with my use of ":p" I'm just trying to make this conversation a little more light-hearted since apparently Gxas believes that I'm seething with rage over here. Again, I assure you, I am not.
I totally understand. I don't know if you saw my edit to my previous post, but not too long ago I would have agreed with you. And I personally find the OOT any% category boring and a bit silly. But as I have gotten more and more into speed running I have come to understand the reasons why each category exists. I am greatly enjoying this discussion.

If you want to see a more "legitimate" run, I would recommend the Mega Man X or X2. There are very few glitches to be found there and it is all about extremely precise and very impressive execution. The any% category is currently held by a runner named Tiki77747. The 100% category is held by a runner named Caleb Hart (a body builder who streams his attempts without a shirt on.)
 

Kilo24

New member
Aug 20, 2008
463
0
0
RJ 17 said:
So yeah, I'm not angry or disgruntled, I'm merely expressing my opinion that runs such as these are not really that impressive, and hardly worthy of being "record holding" or even having a news article written about them. I don't think I've ever seen a news article on this site about the 5 minute no star Mario 64 runs, what makes this so special?
The major distinction between the 5 minute Super Mario 64 run and this one is that that one is a TAS: a tool-assisted speedrun. What that means is that the player had an emulator up, and, frame-by-frame, recorded the controller input to pick the most time-efficient option for every instant of gameplay and reloaded a fraction of a second earlier when he made a mistake; he then took those inputs, played them back on an emulator, and recorded it. This Ocarina of Time run was live and done in a single segment, so many glitches/tricks become impractical or infeasible.

Within the speedrunning community of Speed Runs Live and Speed Demos Archive (which this runner is from), the general consensus is that any% is defined as whatever gets you to the ending screen playing a game with no mods, cheats or other advantages from software/hardware (turbo controllers are out, for instance). This holds for the vast majority of games as it's almost always a clean and easy category to describe. If you threw in another specification that it must be "glitchless" (or worse, "only as the designers intended"), suddenly that clean description becomes much, much murkier.

Does running any% ruin some games by making them trivial or tedious? Sure - but when a category isn't fun to play, it's often quite possible to create a new category that bans the glitches that aren't fun and run that instead. It's also fine to call a category "glitchless" and to specifically describe what is or isn't allowed - there's a decent amount of interest in Ocarina of Time glitchless, if you look it up. But even within the example, there's a lot of judgement calls on what is and is not a glitch (for example, doubling the damage of your crouched stab by doing a jump slash beforehand is not a glitch).

Outside of the definition challenges, disallowing all glitches also removes what is for many games the major source of route evolutions. Ocarina of Time is one key example here; all of the intensive research into speedrunning glitches has turned a linear singleplayer game from 1996 into a dynamic multiplayer game that is constantly evolving. There have been several major glitches discovered (Reverse Bottle Adventure, Door of Time skip, Wrong Warp) that cut down the time required to beat the game by hours and masses of less major glitches (like cutscene skips, clipping through areas, and supersliding). If glitches were prohibited, the very linear nature of the game would mean that the best route found after a year of speedrunning would probably be almost identical to the best route found after 10 years of speedrunning. The speedrunning community would be nowhere near as established or intrigued in Ocarina of Time if that were the case.

Speedruns are the only generalizable challenge that you can apply to practically any game. People who spend a lot of time doing them are generally driven by flaunting their skill in a game they love; as such, glitches that de-emphasize skill are usually frowned upon. What I'm saying is that many of the glitches on display here require much more skill to perform reliably than beating the game normally does; the precise timing and careful setups required for these tricks is not something that a watcher is aware of until he tries doing it himself. And numerous other tricks to save time are not visible to anyone but someone who knows how to speedrun the game. Glitches like these (by-and-large) don't make the game easier; they make it harder.

TL;DR: Super Mario 64 in 5 minutes with 0 stars is a tool assisted speedrun, not a normal speedrun. Allowing glitches usually adds to a game's speedrunning depth instead of reducing it. And with by defaulting to allowing glitches but still allowing categories that ban glitches if there's enough interest, you can get the benefits of both permitting glitches and prohibiting glitches.
 

Johnny Novgorod

Bebop Man
Legacy
Apr 10, 2020
17,081
1,175
118
Country
Argentina
Big deal, the guy cheated. And he didn't even come up with the glitch himself.
 

Revnak_v1legacy

Fixed by "Monday"
Mar 28, 2010
1,979
0
0
SilverStuddedSquirre said:
"Kid beats Ocarina of Time in Less than 20 mins" ***

Asterisk: Special glitched version, not the one you have
Asterisk: only actually beats one Dungeon - and even then, hides behind a wall to beat Ghoma.
Asterisk: does not actually fight the boss, cheats by standing UNDER him and raping him with a stick up the Bum

Not Impressed.
Call me when you do it by beating every Temple properly. And to those who go on about the skill needed to get everything timed perfect and hit the Glitch? I say 1 pump chump!
Does not have the ability to keep it up for the whole game. By Ferore, Din and Nayru you didn't even beat all the kid Dungeons!

As for separate categories of Speedrunning based on using glitches to not have to beat the challenges presented by the game? "I call them Girly men!" - Arnold Schwarzenegger.


/takes away his cartridge and replaces it with a fixed one. Now call me in longer than 20 mins.
He used to hold the record for all temples too... Oh, and there isn't a truly fixed version. The N64 and WiiU version have this too. They just run slower, meaning they are technically less fixed.
 

DrOswald

New member
Apr 22, 2011
1,443
0
0
SilverStuddedSquirre said:
RJ 17's point and my own are Complimentary, not Contradictory. You will note that I mentioned that the Mario Franchise has long established traditions of going out of bounds in a Level. The only glitch I see in that Yoshi level is stopping the auto-scroll. Something I have NEVER seen in a Mario title. To clarify: going around/behind walls in Mario, not cheating. Often part of the game. GLITCHING the auto scroller so you can go over the wall as slow as you like, cheating.

I bet you can still go over that wall without glitching the game. Is it hard? Oh probably.
You do not glitch the game to go over the wall. No glitch happens. All the game world objects are working exactly as intended. But we know the developer did not intended for you to be able to get over the wall and skip the auto scroller. But you are able to without any glitch at all.

RJ 17 says going over the wall is cheating because it is against the spirit of the game. You are bypassing the intended route so it is cheating.

You say going over the wall is not cheating because no glitch occurred.

Your conclusions are conflicting.

This is my point: The "spirit of the game" and the line at which you are cheating is not readily apparent. This is why the rules, for the any% category, are interpreted exactly literally as coded in the game. There can be no question what is allowed and what is not.
 
Oct 20, 2010
424
0
0
If you are looking for an addendum to the title saying that he skipped 90% of the game, you kind of already have it, since "less than 19 minutes" is in the title. Anyone who came into this thread not expecting a glitched speedrun really needs to think a bit before they read an article. It is not misleading in the slightest.
-Gxas




So if I am not an "in the know" speedrunner I was being Stupid? Check yourself Son. RJ, the Doc and Myself are keeping this civil, I respectfully reprimand you to to the same.
And I called Bullshit on the Title of the Article before reading it, because i KNOW that 20 mins is an impossibility. I was curious to see this piece of Shenanigans, and I noticed that it is Cheating. So I said so. As have others.
We have extensively discussed and covered the Cheating and Asterisk arguments, I think. As well as the clearly misleading ((from a strictly linguistic point of View, you know, English Class eh, wot?)) Title of the Article.


@ Revank. Yeah, I know that ALL OOT cartriges are buggy. But They don't all let you beat the game by putting a Stick up Gannon's Bum after NOT playing the game. I think my meaning was very clear, though you are very righty. Ther is no "fixed" OOT cartridge
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
8,687
0
0
DrOswald said:
Without watching the video in order to save time, I'm guessing your talking about the piranha plant boss. And that gets back to my point about "what's within the parameters of the game". It's not an exploit to one-shot that guy before he gets made because doing so triggers an in-game event of Kamek flipping out because you killed his buddy before he was ready.

Back to the Poochy level, think back to world 1-2 of the original Mario. I don't consider jumping above the level to skip the entire challenge of the level as being a cheat or a glitch because, at the end, you can get to the secret warp zone by going above the level. As such, it can very easily be argued that you're supposed to be able to do that. Getting so high up on Poochy's level that it removes the entire point/challenge of the level isn't supposed to be possible, there's no reward for getting up there other than bypassing the game's trigger that starts the screen scrolling.

But again, this all stems from me simply believing that these kind of speed-runs aren't that impressive, but as with most things on the internet: that's just my opinion. My personal tastes for speed-runs involve actually completing the minimal requirements for beating a game, not exploiting weaknesses within the game's code. That's why I kept putting so much emphasis on the phrase "what you're supposed to be able to do". You're supposed to be able to travel faster by side-jumping across the world because the side-jump is meant to be a quick-dodge technique and so logically it would be faster than your normal run speed. You're not supposed to be able to pass through a sealed boss' door and end up standing at the end of OOT as child Link. I consider that cheating, and that's why runs like this leave me unimpressed. And again, I understand completely that there are different categories for speed runs, I just don't have a taste for anything other than actually completing the game as it was intended. Does that mean I'd only be impressed by a speed run for 100% completion? Not at all. I just expect (that is, it's in my opinion) that a speed run worthy of holding a record should only count if the person does the bare minimum requirements of a game to play through it from start to finish.

Madmonk brought up Skyrim and that's an easily explainable example. For me to be impressed by a speed-run of Skyrim, I'd assume the player would have to go through the main questline from the start of the game up until Alduin lies dead. I don't expect them to complete all the side missions and guild stories since that's all extra fluff. For OOT, I wouldn't expect a speed-runner to collect every heart piece, kill every golden spider, etc. I'd expect them to just go from one dungeon to the next until Ganondorf lies dead.

Vivi22 said:
I don't recall ever saying that people had to adhere to my definition of the game's rules. I do recall saying that I was unimpressed by their definition of the rules, however. If warping from the start of a game to the end of a game that has no built-in mechanic specifically designed to allow you to perform such a warp impresses you, well that's just fantastic. I'm glad you enjoyed it. But as I mentioned above: such a thing doesn't impress me. That's all I was saying with my first post in this topic, and from there the conversation evolved with DrOswald specifically asking me what I defined as "cheating", so I've answered that as well. This brought clarification to why I considered this run to be a cheat run, and I'm not impressed by cheaters.

Gxas said:
RJ 17 said:
I'm sorry, and here I thought the entire point of having an open forum such as this was specifically so that people could share their opinions. By your logic, why bother having comment sections for any of these articles at all?
My wonder is to why bother even leaving a negative opinion at all. I do see that negative opinions drove discussion here, but why can't we talk about other ways to shave a few seconds off of his time instead of have the first post basically say, "I don't like this."?
Again, because this is an open forum meant for the sharing of opinions. My opinion is that this is unimpressive and I felt like expressing that.

The comparison between games and real life is to show the difference between what is and isn't cheating, what is "within the spirit of the game" and what isn't (since that was a question specifically asked of my by DrOswald). It's not "within the spirit of the mile-run" to cut between the cones, but because there's no physical barrier actually stopping you from doing so that certainly doesn't mean that you can't just cut between the cones. This is a direct comparison to the game world. It's not "within the spirit of OOT" to be able to back through what's supposed to be a solid wall, but because of a glitch in the coding there's no physical barrier there stopping you from doing so.
But who dictates what the "spirit of the game" is? I would claim that the spirit of the game, by the developers' standards is to have fun. The "spirit of the game" in the speedrunning community is to beat the final boss as fast as possible using rules they have set up for each category of speedrun. If Cosmo has fun with his speed runs, then I'd say he met both requirements. But, again, I am no one to say what the "spirit of the game" is, that is just how I perceive it to be.
"The spirit of the game", in terms of this conversation, has been defined (by those taking part in this conversation) as what is and isn't a valid execution of the game's mechanics. The spirit of every game is to have fun, this is true, but in terms of this conversation, the spirit of the game is what you're supposed to be able to do (i.e. going through the game as the developers intended, which does not include exploiting a weakness in the coding to pass through a wall that's supposed to be solid and end up standing over Ganon's corpse as kid Link).

Perhaps a better question is why do you care so much that I don't find this to be impressive? Why does my opinion on the matter offend you so?
Who said I was offended?
Apparently the same person that told you that I was angry. :p

Or provoke such a profound curiosity within you? Why do you assume that I'm angry/frustrated about the way this person plays the game, and not simply unimpressed by the way this person plays the game as I've claimed numerous times now? Who gets to dictate what I find to be impressive? You? Why you? Why can't you simply say "I can see why some people wouldn't find this impressive"? So I'll turn your own question back onto you: does my finding this run to be unimpressive affect you in any way? If not, why should you care? Why bother commenting on any of my posts in the first place?
I don't understand why this needs to be here. I told you why I am curious about it. I see all over the place that people leave negative comments on everything. The need to say, "I dislike this" is rampant everywhere nowadays, and I want to know what the reasoning for this is.

I was like that too, though. I used to just spout, "God, I hate that" to everything. Now? I've been working very hard to keep my negative opinions to myself. If you ask me, I will tell you, but I'm not going around putting things down anymore.

It's a curiosity about human nature nowadays. I want to know why we're so focused on negativity, especially online. What makes it so difficult to just pass up a thread that people have a negative opinion on? That's why I'm here.
Again: it's because we're on an open forum meant for the expression of opinions and ideas. My opinion is that this wasn't impressive, and I felt like expressing that opinion. If you don't like expressing negative opinions about a given topic, then that's great. But my friend, we're all like little snowflakes, each an individual with their own tastes, feelings, and desires. It was my desire to express my opinion that this was unimpressive, just as it was your desire to question why I bother even posting my desire. Quite simply: I felt like it. Don't really need much more of a reason than that. :p

As you put it, apparently my opinion that this was unimpressive spurred conversation, which is the entire point of these forums. It doesn't matter whether its negative or positive. The point of this article was to impress the readers by saying "This guy beat OOT in less than 19 minutes". And so after reading the story and watching the video, I felt like expressing my opinion that "this was not impressive".

I wouldn't even say that I'm being all that negative. Like you, I try to avoid such topics that would prompt a response. For instance, I really try my best to avoid expressing my opinion on Final Fantasy games beyond FF7, because all I have to say about them is "FF8 sucks and here's why" "FF9 sucks and here's why" "FF10 sucks and here's why", etc. I've said the same thing over and over again to the point that it's grown tiresome to try and explain to others why I really don't like those games. Though every now and then I still get sucked into a conversation about them. Even when that happens, though, I try to keep my venom to a minimum and try to back out of the conversations quickly.

So yeah, to answer your "psychological experiment question", you can simply jot down "because I felt like it." :p
 
Oct 20, 2010
424
0
0
Dr Oswald.

Oh I see your point. I would argue that by not engaging the Scroller of the Level, the Game is Glitching. Is it not? Maybe we should briefly discuss a "glitch" ? I can better see the conflicting nature of our conclusions from your last post.


RJ, On the subject of Mario Games having always included seeming "out of boundary" play?
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
8,687
0
0
SirBryghtside said:
At the rate this thread is going, we're going to end up on Cracked again. Unexpectedly controversial topics two!
This is just gamers being gamers having a gamer conversation. :p

I wouldn't really call this controversial, really, as the topic at hand - whether or not this speed run is impressive (at least that's what I considered the topic at hand based on the article) - has already been lost and now we've derailed onto a discussion about what is and isn't considered cheating in a game. And like most things on the internet, such a discussion is 100% purely opinion based and varies from gamer to gamer. And we all know what happens when opinions clash over the internet. :p
 

Roxas1359

Burn, Burn it All!
Aug 8, 2009
33,758
0
0
SirBryghtside said:
At the rate this thread is going, we're going to end up on Cracked again. Unexpectedly controversial topics two!
Makes me wonder how these people would react to the yearly Awesome Games Done Quick events really, seeing as how apparently speed runners should adhere to these so called rules I've never heard of to keep the run "in the spirit of the game."
Yes, I don't mind if people dismiss this as bearing the game because that's semantics, but with how quick people just throw it off as "oh it shouldn't count because it's not in the spirit of the game" is rather saddening if you ask me.
 
Oct 20, 2010
424
0
0
HELP! I have an RJ 17 thought stealing Drone in my head! GET IT OUT!!!

Hee hee, you are answering my questions BEFORE I ask them XD
 

Gxas

New member
Sep 4, 2008
3,187
0
0
SilverStuddedSquirre said:
So if I am not an "in the know" speedrunner I was being Stupid? Check yourself Son. RJ, the Doc and Myself are keeping this civil, I respectfully reprimand you to to the same.
The only person who is saying you are stupid is yourself, as I never said, nor insinuated anything of the sort. I've been fairly civil this entire time, though, I am not keen on people putting words in my mouth in the slightest.

The only thing I said is that the title is not misleading. You, yourself, even said that you knew before reading that a sub-19 minute OoT run is impossible, so I fail to see where the problem with the title lies.
 

WhiteTigerShiro

New member
Sep 26, 2008
2,366
0
0
BiH-Kira said:
I think the title should be something like skipped the game instead of beats the game.
He basically skipped it.
That certainly gets a bit semantic, doesn't it? He got to the final boss; he defeated the final boss; he saw the ending cinematic and the staff roll. Sounds to me like he beat the game.

If for example someone beats everything except Ganon and then gives the controller to someone else and that someone else kills Ganon, would you say the first or the second person has beaten the game?
I would dub it a group effort, but it isn't even remotely related to how Cosmo beat the game.

For a better example lets look at the old MegaMan games with the password system.

If I took a password that is basically right a the end of the game and just finished the final boss, would anyone consider it beating the game? I just exploited the game, nothing more.
That's a terrible example, because if you had played any of the old Mega Man games, you would know that the highest you can get with passwords is to the first of the Wily Stages, and they're all harder than any of the 8 Robot Master stages. And even then you're still playing with semantics, because you keep assuming "played 100% of the game" as part of the definition for beating the game. By that logic, has someone who hasn't gotten Knights of the Round not beaten Final Fantasy 7? After-all, that's content he skipped, right? What about anyone who didn't get Vincent and/or Yuffie? They skipped entire characters!