[spoiler] Bioshock Infinite's ending is []

[allinwonder]

Bioshock Infinite's ending is a paradox (therefore huge plot hole)

Going back time killing DeWitt/Comstock does only one thing: to create a new universe where DeWitt/Comstock died during baptism. The DeWitts and Comstocks still live in their original universes. In multiverse time travel, intervention by going backwards only creates new universes, It CANNOT alter the universe the time traveller comes from. This is the only way in which backwards suicide is non-paradoxical.

DeWitt killed -> No Comstock -> No time-dimesion traveling Elizabeth -> No one kills DeWitt

You CANNOT have both multiple AND disappearing Elizabeths (as in the drowning scene). If it's a single-verse, there wouldn't have been multiple Elizabeths. But then if DeWitt is killed, there wouldn't one Elizabeth at all. If it's a multi-verse, there wouldn't have been disappearing Elizabeths. Because doing so only creates a new reality where there is no DeWitt/Comstock, thus no Elizabeth. But Elizabeths in the original realities still exist, possessing time and inter-dimensional travelling ability. Being both single-verse and multi-verse is a paradox.

 

[Sepko]

[youtube]GbuXmXDw-T8[/youtube]

What Bruce Willis said.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

You're trying to explain time travel bullshit.

You spend time trying to explain time travel bullshit, then we'll spend all day making straw diagrams.

 

[Judas_Iscariot]

There is no plothole. Only the DeWitts which became Comstock were "Drowned" by the preacher accidentally via Elizabeth's intervention.

 

[allinwonder]

There is no plothole. Only the DeWitts which became Comstock were "Drowned" by the preacher accidentally via Elizabeth's intervention.

Still doesn't answer the question.

"Only the DeWitts which became Comstock were "Drowned" via Elizabeth's intervention". No Comstock, no Elizabeth.

 

[CharlesCarmichael]

No Comstock, no Elizabeth.

Why not? Comstock wasn't Elizabeth's father, Booker was. She might still be named Anna, but a rose by any other name can still drown you in a river. Or something.

 

[JudgeGame]

It's pointless to understand time travel used in fiction. I would have still wanted to have some questions answered like what is up with the Luteces, how did Elizabeth get her powers and what happenned to Lady Comstock in both timelines. I'm guessing a few of these questions would have been answered if I had payed more attention but I'm not about to play through the whole thing again just yet.

 

[allinwonder]

No Comstock, no Elizabeth.

Why not? Comstock wasn't Elizabeth's father, Booker was. She might still be named Anna, but a rose by any other name can still drown you in a river. Or something.

Elizabeth only gained time and dimensional traveling ability under Comstock's care. Without Comstock, there is only "Anna", no "Elizabeth".

 

[DionysusSnoopy]

I'm fairly certain that when Booker died the Elizabeths started disappearing that would have come from the multiverses that originated from that point. She can still exist as Anna because there would also be multiverses that never arrived at the point of Baptism of Booker to Comstock.

It's pointless to understand time travel used in fiction. I would have still wanted to have some questions answered like what is up with the Luteces, how did Elizabeth get her powers and what happenned to Lady Comstock in both timelines. I'm guessing a few of these questions would have been answered if I had payed more attention but I'm not about to play through the whole thing again just yet.

I can answer some of those someone summed up some their arcs quite neatly.

Spoiler

1. The Luteces are quantum physicists of beyond genius intelligence and were able to create a device to allow them to travel through the tears where they met the Booker we play. Comstock knew of their technology and used the Luteces to get Anna/Elizabeth from Booker. He then tried to have the Luteces killed but the assassin made a hash of it damaged the Luteces machine which gave them the ability to travel the multiverse.
2. Elizabeth loses her pinky when a tear closes which apparently allowed her to open them.
3. Lady Comstock in all the multiverses that are visited in game, I think you cross three, Lady Comstock had always been killed by someone hired by Comstock to silence her about Elizabeth not being Comstocks child.

 

[Pyrokinesis]

Spoiler

1. The Luteces are quantum physicists of beyond genius intelligence and were able to create a device to allow them to travel through the tears where they met the Booker we play. Comstock knew of their technology and used the Luteces to get Anna/Elizabeth from Booker. He then tried to have the Luteces killed but the assassin made a hash of it damaged the Luteces machine which gave them the ability to travel the multiverse.
2. Elizabeth loses her pinky when a tear closes which apparently allowed her to open them.
3. Lady Comstock in all the multiverses that are visited in game, I think you cross three, Lady Comstock had always been killed by someone hired by Comstock to silence her about Elizabeth not being Comstocks child.

*spoilers for those who dont already know*

Theres still abit unexplained like how it is what we actively play ingame is a lie made up by past Bookers imagination, how the whole dock thing never happened and you were dragged by them, but then you were boat rided by them, but that never happened because you spent 20 years in a drunk coma then walked through a rift instead, but instead took a boat ride and were told to wipe away the debt and given a box...

Also I want to know how it is Future Booker(Comstock) and past Booker can physically interact (and kill) one another but not cause space time paradox from two planes of existence existing in the area of space. If you touch yourself in another dissension isnt that suppose to rip space time according to space magic (quantum mechanics)

And how does liz rapidly age from changing her cloths into what appear to be to devs quarreling over art design? Why does song bird attack liz through a space rift in the elevator if she isnt the liz from that dimension?

Why is it we actively travel dimensions but never see or catch word of the current dimenisons liz (save the end) For instance what happens to liz when booker dies a martyr? Where is she even at when that all is happeneing? Hope she wasent still in the tower when songbird blew it up at the end.

Lets just be honest as much as we want to explain away the space magic its really just a dev nightmare being glued together (rather tactfully I might add) and sold into a workable game. There is a notable divide between devs from the second that liz changes outfits and songbird crashes the ship. and it dosent take much to see how gameplay feels different between the two parts, almost as if made entirely separately (yet the game is being actively played and no rifts are stepped through when this occurs) making a bizzar 90 degree turn mid game that almost under-minds character arcs.

This isnt like bioshock 1 which was explained genetics and fontains master plan, or inception which is coherent and planned this feels tactfully glued together.

 

[flarty]

Spoiler

1. The Luteces are quantum physicists of beyond genius intelligence and were able to create a device to allow them to travel through the tears where they met the Booker we play. Comstock knew of their technology and used the Luteces to get Anna/Elizabeth from Booker. He then tried to have the Luteces killed but the assassin made a hash of it damaged the Luteces machine which gave them the ability to travel the multiverse.
2. Elizabeth loses her pinky when a tear closes which apparently allowed her to open them.
3. Lady Comstock in all the multiverses that are visited in game, I think you cross three, Lady Comstock had always been killed by someone hired by Comstock to silence her about Elizabeth not being Comstocks child.

*spoilers for those who dont already know*

Theres still abit unexplained like how it is what we actively play ingame is a lie made up by past Bookers imagination, how the whole dock thing never happened and you were dragged by them, but then you were boat rided by them, but that never happened because you spent 20 years in a drunk coma then walked through a rift instead, but instead took a boat ride and were told to wipe away the debt and given a box...

Also I want to know how it is Future Booker(Comstock) and past Booker can physically interact (and kill) one another but not cause space time paradox from two planes of existence existing in the area of space. If you touch yourself in another dissension isnt that suppose to rip space time according to space magic (quantum mechanics)

And how does liz rapidly age from changing her cloths into what appear to be to devs quarreling over art design? Why does song bird attack liz through a space rift in the elevator if she isnt the liz from that dimension?

Why is it we actively travel dimensions but never see or catch word of the current dimenisons liz (save the end) For instance what happens to liz when booker dies a martyr? Where is she even at when that all is happeneing? Hope she wasent still in the tower when songbird blew it up at the end.

Lets just be honest as much as we want to explain away the space magic its really just a dev nightmare being glued together (rather tactfully I might add) and sold into a workable game. There is a notable divide between devs from the second that liz changes outfits and songbird crashes the ship. and it dosent take much to see how gameplay feels different between the two parts, almost as if made entirely separately (yet the game is being actively played and no rifts are stepped through when this occurs) making a bizzar 90 degree turn mid game that almost under-minds character arcs.

This isnt like bioshock 1 which was explained genetics and fontains master plan, or inception which is coherent and planned this feels tactfully glued together.

Your thinking about it too much.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

That is a straw man argument.

All straw men went up in fiery flames a couple of days ago.

Plus, the sound effect at the very end (pre credit scroll) indicates that all Elizabeths went *poof*. So, there should only be 'Anna' now, but since it's 'time travel', we could just as well discuss unicorn ponies riding rainbows to the mountains of doom.

Or, maybe...

IT WAS ALL JUST A DREAM?

After all,

if I fall asleep in this world, am I not waking in another?

 

[Drunk3nMonk3y]

Bioshock Infinite's ending is a paradox (therefore huge plot hole)

Going back time killing DeWitt/Comstock does only one thing: to create a new universe where DeWitt/Comstock died during baptism. The DeWitts and Comstocks still live in their original universes. In multiverse time travel, intervention by going backwards only creates new universes, It CANNOT alter the universe the time traveller comes from. This is the only way in which backwards suicide is non-paradoxical.

DeWitt killed -> No Comstock -> No time-dimesion traveling Elizabeth -> No one kills DeWitt

You CANNOT have both multiple AND disappearing Elizabeths (as in the drowning scene). If it's a single-verse, there wouldn't have been multiple Elizabeths. But then if DeWitt is killed, there wouldn't one Elizabeth at all. If it's a multi-verse, there wouldn't have been disappearing Elizabeths. Because doing so only creates a new reality where there is no DeWitt/Comstock, thus no Elizabeth. But Elizabeths in the original realities still exist, possessing time and inter-dimensional travelling ability. Being both single-verse and multi-verse is a paradox.

The whole reason Booker drowns in the end is to not destroy the existence of all the Booker DiWitts, but to destroy all the Booker's who chose to take the baptism and become Comstock.In other words the priest accidentally drowns Booker. Which is why we see all the elizabeth's disspearing including our own, screen fades to black indicates that the world we know has vanished.
All the Bookers who chose not to take the baptism are free to meet their wives, live with their sin, and eventually give birth to Anna. Where now no Comstock will exist in order to create transdimensional travel with Lutece and offer Booker the choice to wipe away his debt. Also one of the logs mention that when a person dies they might have their soul transferred to another body in another world, which is why the post credits scene probably has our Booker remembering the whole game and questioning whether Anna is in her crib or not, because the day on the calender in the room is the same day he gave her away.

edit: we are assuming that elizabeth by the end of the game has god powers to rewrite the different dimensions as she sees fit, therefore no paradoxical plot hole.

 

[scarfacetehstag]

There is no plothole. Only the DeWitts which became Comstock were "Drowned" by the preacher accidentally via Elizabeth's intervention.

Still doesn't answer the question.

"Only the DeWitts which became Comstock were "Drowned" via Elizabeth's intervention". No Comstock, no Elizabeth.

Which was the point
Booker wanted Anna to have chance at a normal life, and to stop the eventual destruction of Columbia, or the world or whatever.
The whole reason Booker drowned was to stop "Elizabeth" from ever existing, just Anna, as seen in the post credits.

 

[Keymik]

I'm still just sad that my choices didn't end my mattering at all in the big scheme of things..

 

[Judas_Iscariot]

Still doesn't answer the question.

"Only the DeWitts which became Comstock were "Drowned" via Elizabeth's intervention". No Comstock, no Elizabeth.

You are thinking of it as time travel, but it isn't.

Imperfect Analogy Time: There is a being of electricity plugged into the wall, this power sustains not only him but his corporal form. If he unplugs himself, he not only "Turns off" but his corporal form vanishes. He unplugs himself. This does not create a paradox, because he existed at the moment he unplugged himself: The fact that he no longer does is immaterial.

There is a diagram in the Lutece house which sheds a lot of light on this, it is a switch board of lights arranged in a branching diagram, and if the root light turns off all of the lights that follow that branch turn off as well.


Ask me again if I did a bad job explaining this, I can try to elaborate, I just don't want to talk you to death.

 

[allinwonder]

Still doesn't answer the question.

"Only the DeWitts which became Comstock were "Drowned" via Elizabeth's intervention". No Comstock, no Elizabeth.

You are thinking of it as time travel, but it isn't.

Imperfect Analogy Time: There is a being of electricity plugged into the wall, this power sustains not only him but his corporal form. If he unplugs himself, he not only "Turns off" but his corporal form vanishes. He unplugs himself. This does not create a paradox, because he existed at the moment he unplugged himself: The fact that he no longer does is immaterial.

There is a diagram in the Lutece house which sheds a lot of light on this, it is a switch board of lights arranged in a branching diagram, and if the root light turns off all of the lights that follow that branch turn off as well.


Ask me again if I did a bad job explaining this, I can try to elaborate, I just don't want to talk you to death.

If it's NOT time travel, then those Elizabeths won't disappear, because no space-time continuum is disturbed.
If it IS time travel, then there is no Elizabeth in the future to go back and kill DeWitt (No DeWitt/Comstock, no Elizabeth).

THAT is the paradox.

 

[Judas_Iscariot]

They disappear because the reality they originated within (Which therefore includes them) has ceased to exist, taking them with it.

 

[allinwonder]

They disappear because the reality they originated within (Which therefore includes them) has ceased to exist, taking them with it.

It's "them" who make the reality cease to exist. And "them" only exist if the realities they originated within DO NOT cease to exist.

I can't understand why you don't see the problem.