Starwars I-III would've been better if Darth Maul had survived Episode I

[Brian Tams]

One of my major gripes about the prequel films is that there appeared to be a Sith carousel at work; when one went down, a new, much more powerful one seemed to appear out of thin air (Dooku!).

Now, hear me out; Darth Maul was one of the few good things about Episode 1. He had a great evil design, was menacing, was able to be completely threatening whilst barely saying three lines, and his double lightsaber continues to be the absolutely coolest thing the Prequels produced.

If he had survived episode 1, then that gives Anakin a darker revenge story at the beginning of 3; he kills Dooku with hate because he cut off his arm. However, if Darth Maul is murdered there instead, then he just murdered the guy who killed the only father figure he ever had. Not only that, but we get the situation where Anakin, after killing Darth Maul, had become the thing he hated most.

Not only that, but it would've given the prequels a clear and consistent face to the Sith Threat, a la Darth Vader in IV, V, and VI, instead of the Sith Carousel we get in his place.

It would've led to a tighter series of screen plays, in my opinion.

 

[Lionsfan]

Wouldn't Anakin have to watched Darth Maul kill Qui-Gon for it to have full effect though? Just being told, "Yeah this bald guy with tattoos and horns stabbed him" seems a little underwhelming

 

[senordesol]

Darth Maul suffered from Boba Fett syndrome: Cool looking, but not much there.

The reason Vader worked so well as a villain, was because of his villainous personality. He was a threat to everyone around him, not just our heroes. He did serve a master, yes, but the Emperor (up until ROTJ) was someone who was just referenced in passing for the most part, so Vader was never truly eclipsed.

Maul never did anything except fight Jedi. He could have been one of them Manga Guard and not have made a lick of difference to the story. As such he (and all of the other Prequel villains) were totally void of character. We knew they were all just pawns of Sidious and took no initiative of their own.

So, I have to disagree: the prequels wouldn't have been any better if Maul was in all of them. They would have been better if there was an actual realized villain, however (and realized protagonists for that matter).

 

[Platituder]

One of my major gripes about the prequel films is that there appeared to be a Sith carousel at work; when one went down, a new, much more powerful one seemed to appear out of thin air (Dooku!).

Now, hear me out; Darth Maul was one of the few good things about Episode 1. He had a great evil design, was menacing, was able to be completely threatening whilst barely saying three lines, and his double lightsaber continues to be the absolutely coolest thing the Prequels produced.

If he had survived episode 1, then that gives Anakin a darker revenge story at the beginning of 3; he kills Dooku with hate because he cut off his arm. However, if Darth Maul is murdered there instead, then he just murdered the guy who killed the only father figure he ever had. Not only that, but we get the situation where Anakin, after killing Darth Maul, had become the thing he hated most.

Not only that, but it would've given the prequels a clear and consistent face to the Sith Threat, a la Darth Vader in IV, V, and VI, instead of the Sith Carousel we get in his place.

It would've led to a tighter series of screen plays, in my opinion.

Sure, it's more than likely that it would have been there, but we never really get to see Anakin's attachment in any way to Qui Gon, probably due to the fact that for a pivotal character, we don't know much about him. Sure, the extended universe gives us backstory, but the film itself would have to go heavy restructuring to bring this element into the plot in order to clarify. Even in the later episodes, Anakin almost never even refers to Qui Gon, and definitely not with overflowing hatred towards Maul, who he barely even knew of. It isn't as simple as letting him survive, but would require a huge overhaul of the canon to pull off.

 

[Asita]

I'm actually inclined to agree with the OP, but like senordesol says that notion is predicated on the later films fleshing him out. Episode 1 would then have effectively built up to Maul's reveal and battle, Episode 2 could have fleshed him out now that he wasn't as shrouded in anonymity, and Episode 3 could have culminated in his death and Anakin's fall. Among other things it adds a certain agreeable symmetry to the two trilogies and Anakin and Luke's story arcs (which granted, can just as easily go south as succeed) culminating in very different climactic duels: where Anakin falls to the Dark Side and leads the galaxy to a time of great evil and hardship, Luke embraces the Light and helps foster an age of peace, acting as[footnote]At the risk of bastardizing chinese philosophy[/footnote] the Yin to Anakin's Yang, if you will.

 

[Happiness Assassin]

Yeah, because Darth Maul totally died on Naboo. Yep, no way for him to survive something like getting chopped in half.

*Goes to Netflix to watch Star Wars The Clone Wars while whistling innocently*

Spoiler

In the tv show, Darth Maul does actually survive his injuries, but basically goes mad in the self-induced state of rage that is really the only thing keeping him alive at this point. He is found broken, driven mad, with his only coherent thoughts being to take revenge on Kenobi. When he recovers, he is probably the most affecting villain in the entire show, with his arc being surprisingly dark for a kid show (mass slaughters including kids, beheadings, and Kenobi watching one of his closest friends die). Maul gets all this build-up as one of the biggest villains in the show... only to be on the receiving end of the worst smackdowns in the show, which just serves to remind us who the real villain is.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Yeah, because Darth Maul totally died on Naboo. Yep, no way for him to survive something like getting chopped in half.

*Goes to Netflix to watch Star Wars The Clone Wars while whistling innocently*

Spoiler

In the tv show, Darth Maul does actually survive his injuries, but basically goes mad in the self-induced state of rage that is really the only thing keeping him alive at this point. He is found broken, driven mad, with his only coherent thoughts being to take revenge on Kenobi. When he recovers, he is probably the most affecting villain in the entire show, with his arc being surprisingly dark for a kid show (mass slaughters including kids, beheadings, and Kenobi watching one of his closest friends die). Maul gets all this build-up as one of the biggest villains in the show... only to be on the receiving end of the worst smackdowns in the show, which just serves to remind us who the real villain is.

Even Boba Fett survives in this or that continuity.

 

[Angelowl]

In principle I agree. A major problem with the prequels is a lack of characters that actually stay through the whole trilogy and make it feels like a saga and not three separate movies. Count Doku would probably be a better choice as he is more of a mastermind, with actual plans and a proper goal. Not to mention that the actor, as usual makes a convincing performance.

In the same fashion I agree with the solution I have seen proposed to merge Qui-Gon Jinn with Obi-Wan, as Qui-Gon got a good personality and made a convincing jedi master and it was a waste to have him killed in the first movie. As it stands, very little from episode I actually matters or bring anything to the table.

Honestly, the prequels have a bad habit of introducing fairly good characters and then killing them off before we see them doing anything. It makes it a bit hard to relate. The only characters that actually stay relevant are Anakin, Obi-Wan and Palpatine (Padme is barely relevant to anything in the plot imo, her primary purpose in the prequels are essentially to get pregnant). One of which is an obsessed psychopath, the others being a pretty believable jedi master and a skilled politician/sith.

 

[shootthebandit]

The prequels would be better if anakin was actually likable. I even think he was an obnoxious little brat in episode 1. I just find it hard to follow him turning into this monster when he was already a massive arsehole. I suppose in the respect that vader is a manifestation of this it makes sense

 

[dyre]

Heh, not a bad idea actually. For it to work well, I think Qui Gon would have had to survive to Episode 2 and be killed by Darth Maul then, so an older Anakin who had grown to know his mentor better would see Darth Maul kill him in front of him. Then the film could have him nurture those thoughts for revenge and have a concrete "move towards the dark side" event when he executes his nemesis in Episode 3.

As it stands, Anakin's dark side transition is pretty badly done. The massacre of the sand people was good, but the other stuff (killing Dukoo, obsessing over "saving" his wife with ambiguous promises from Palpatine) was rather unconvincing and seemed forced. One minute, Anakin is turning in Palatine with a genuine desire to have the man brought to justice along the proper channels, the next he's attacking one of the most respected Jedi in the universe with the excuse "but I need him (Palpatine)!" Well, should have thought of that before you turned him in, dumbass...

 

[RJ 17]

To be fair, for all intents and purposes, Darth Maul should have survived Episode 1

Spoiler: Since the way in which he was killed was complete and total bullshit.

Skip to 2:30 for the most pertinent part to this point, though the entire thing is fun to watch.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

was Qui Gon a father figure to Anakin? it was always meant to be Obi Wan wasn't it?
I'd saysome better acting and some of the writers from the original probably would have helped it more than a guy with a face full of tribal tattoo's and a double light sabre

 

[Brian Tams]

Wouldn't Anakin have to watched Darth Maul kill Qui-Gon for it to have full effect though? Just being told, "Yeah this bald guy with tattoos and horns stabbed him" seems a little underwhelming

If Darth Maul survives the first film, then he probably takes Dooku's place in Attack of the Clones. Which means we can have a whole movie devoted to Anakin coming to grips with Maul killing Qui-Gon instead of that awful love story arc with Padme. In fact (and this is where the Prequels being, you know, Prequels really ended up ruining the writing), you could just ditch Padme's character altogether. Its a shame since there were already so few female characters of actual story relevance in the Prequels (seriously, its literally just Padme), but the whole thing felt forced, since it was basically just Lucas checking things off his "Reference the original Trilogy" list of things to do.
Anyways, while there Obi-Wan is also affected by Maul still being alive (since he actually did see Qui-Gon get shish-kabobed in front of him), and seeing his Master, who was supposed to symbolize a pillar of peace and tranquility, go through these dark emotions has an affect on Anakin in turn. Then, throw in the fact that he'd be emotionally unstable (requires an actor with talent to show emotion, which the prequels lacked) after slaughtering the Sand People (and hormones. He's a teenager in II), and I could totally see Anakin wanting to kill Darth Maul despite not seeing Qui-Gon get killed. Then the battle plays out, Darth Maul is able to easily overwhelm them because he's had more time to get stronger, and Anakin still gets his arm chopped off. Yoda does some Jedi bullshit, and the movie ends with the war starting. I could totally buy into that.

 

[Signa]

I agree that Darth Maul shouldn't have died. I knew it the moment it happened the first time I saw it. I was hoping that he was alive at the bottom of the pit, just like how Luke survived the fall.

Also:
and

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

I agree that Darth Maul shouldn't have died. I knew it the moment it happened the first time I saw it. I was hoping that he was alive at the bottom of the pit, just like how Luke survived the fall.

Also:
and

Ninja'd.

But yeah, those versions are amazing.

If Lucas would have had someone restrain him from his bs, we would have had a great series.

But apparently, runaway success=lack of editors.

 

[senordesol]

Wouldn't Anakin have to watched Darth Maul kill Qui-Gon for it to have full effect though? Just being told, "Yeah this bald guy with tattoos and horns stabbed him" seems a little underwhelming

If Darth Maul survives the first film, then he probably takes Dooku's place in Attack of the Clones. Which means we can have a whole movie devoted to Anakin coming to grips with Maul killing Qui-Gon instead of that awful love story arc with Padme. In fact (and this is where the Prequels being, you know, Prequels really ended up ruining the writing), you could just ditch Padme's character altogether. Its a shame since there were already so few female characters of actual story relevance in the Prequels (seriously, its literally just Padme), but the whole thing felt forced, since it was basically just Lucas checking things off his "Reference the original Trilogy" list of things to do.
Anyways, while there Obi-Wan is also affected by Maul still being alive (since he actually did see Qui-Gon get shish-kabobed in front of him), and seeing his Master, who was supposed to symbolize a pillar of peace and tranquility, go through these dark emotions has an affect on Anakin in turn. Then, throw in the fact that he'd be emotionally unstable (requires an actor with talent to show emotion, which the prequels lacked) after slaughtering the Sand People (and hormones. He's a teenager in II), and I could totally see Anakin wanting to kill Darth Maul despite not seeing Qui-Gon get killed. Then the battle plays out, Darth Maul is able to easily overwhelm them because he's had more time to get stronger, and Anakin still gets his arm chopped off. Yoda does some Jedi bullshit, and the movie ends with the war starting. I could totally buy into that.

That doesn't really 'fix' anything, though. The issue there is rather than Anakin being angry at 'everything', he just sort of has a locus for his anger but it doesn't bridge the gap between an angry Jedi and a Dark Lord of the Sith.

To be honest, I think a centralized villain in the prequel trilogy would probably be the wrong approach anyway. See, when you kill the leader of the opposition: all of your problems are solved (i.e.: no reason to turn to the Dark Side). This is why the entire concept of 'Kill Grievous:End the War' bothered me. Because once Grievous died, the Jedi council could have (in public, rather than a cramped office with no witnesses) just told Palpatine that his term was up and he needed to resign.

In order to sell Anakin being dedicated to the concept of an 'Empire' and betraying the very Jedi who raised him, there needed to be a demonstration of the Jedi/Republic ways constantly failing, thus perpetuating a steadily growing frustration and questioning of his training and philosophy.

To be honest, the story would have been a little more interesting if Padme wasn't this delicate, virginial little flower and was more Imperious and militant herself (seeing your homeworld being invaded while your Republic does nothing about it will do that to you).

This would establish a greater personal parallel as Anakin struggles with ideals of 'peace and justice' of the Jedi order and a 'Blasters are the best peacemakers' brinksman philosophy.

 

[Brian Tams]

snip

*thinking* The only thing that I can think of that would work is if you axe the idea of Anakin going up and joining the space battle (which is dumb. Like, really really dumb. It doesn't matter how sensitive to the force you are; if a ten year old gets control of a highly complicated piece of machinery and flies it into a deadly space battle, he should definitely die.), and instead have him watch the battle... somehow. Perhaps Qui-Gon still tells him to hide, but he ends up following them through the bridge room, sees Qui-gon get stabbed, and has his own "NO!" moment, just like Luke does when Obi-Wan is killed by Vader. This continues to lend to the dualism between the prequels and original trilogy, and will just strengthen the message of how Luke's arc in IV, V, and VI could have gone horribly, horribly wrong.

All of this only works with major retooling of the original script, and I can't for the life of me think of any worthless, over-long sequences or stupid characters that could be cut in favor of a better, more stream-lined story *cough*jarjarpodracing4battlesatonce*cough*.

EDIT: Just saw the rest of your post

The reason why a centralized villain could work is for three reasons.
1. This centralized villain kills Qui-Gon and escapes. Jedi failed here.
2. Centralized villain deals a heavy blow to the republic in episode II (let's have the Separatist forces win on Geonosis for this) because the Republic was too busy debating in order to back up the Jedi (perhaps Mace Windu should die here? Or maybe Anakin can blame Darth Maul escaping their clutches because the Republic arrived way too late).
3. Centralized Villain is slain in episode III (not at the beginning, though) only to turn out to be a puppet to the real master, Sidious. The entire Republic that Anakin believed in turns out to be a complete sham, and that (coupled with Padme actually dying during child birth at the midpoint, plus using his rage to justify murdering darth maul) would turn him to the dark side completely.

For the record, I also didn't like Grievous. I felt like (again) he was just plucked from thin air for the sake of having a new bad guy.

 

[senordesol]

The reason why a centralized villain could work is for three reasons.
1. This centralized villain kills Qui-Gon and escapes. Jedi failed here.
2. Centralized villain deals a heavy blow to the republic in episode II (let's have the Separatist forces win on Geonosis for this) because the Republic was too busy debating in order to back up the Jedi (perhaps Mace Windu should die here? Or maybe Anakin can blame Darth Maul escaping their clutches because the Republic arrived way too late).
3. Centralized Villain is slain in episode III (not at the beginning, though) only to turn out to be a puppet to the real master, Sidious. The entire Republic that Anakin believed in turns out to be a complete sham, and that (coupled with Padme actually dying during child birth at the midpoint, plus using his rage to justify murdering darth maul) would turn him to the dark side completely.

For the record, I also didn't like Grievous. I felt like (again) he was just plucked from thin air for the sake of having a new bad guy.

1. The 'escape' should be super suspicious, like 'no unauthorized ships left the planet' suspicious. This plants the seed of ineptitude on behalf of both the Republic and the Jedi.

2. Actually, a Republic win on Geonosis would probably be appropriate AFTER the Jedi get their asses handed to them (i.e.: the space monks couldn't get the job done, but the armor-clad stormtroopers sure as hell could). Maybe it shouldn't have been so obviously a Separatist stronghold but a 'wavering' system that got out of hand. (Thus demonstrating that the soft-pedalled 'Jedi diplomacy' is inferior to military might) Also, the Jedi should never be Generals, but somewhat sidelined in the war (except for a few high-profile ones like Anakin)

3. Can't go with you on that one. Anakin needs to be seduced by the Dark Side, not tricked into becoming evil. He needs to utterly reject the Jedi way, not just do a couple bad things. Establishing a centralized villain is not as effective in terms of 'jading' a character as 'knocking down tin pot after tin pot with no end in sight' is. Actually, an amusing approach would be to have a 'double set-up' wherein we make the audience *think* Maul is going to be a central villain, but he gradually becomes so marginalized that by the time Anakin kills him; Skywalker barely notices.

 

[Brian Tams]

The reason why a centralized villain could work is for three reasons.
1. This centralized villain kills Qui-Gon and escapes. Jedi failed here.
2. Centralized villain deals a heavy blow to the republic in episode II (let's have the Separatist forces win on Geonosis for this) because the Republic was too busy debating in order to back up the Jedi (perhaps Mace Windu should die here? Or maybe Anakin can blame Darth Maul escaping their clutches because the Republic arrived way too late).
3. Centralized Villain is slain in episode III (not at the beginning, though) only to turn out to be a puppet to the real master, Sidious. The entire Republic that Anakin believed in turns out to be a complete sham, and that (coupled with Padme actually dying during child birth at the midpoint, plus using his rage to justify murdering darth maul) would turn him to the dark side completely.

For the record, I also didn't like Grievous. I felt like (again) he was just plucked from thin air for the sake of having a new bad guy.

1. The 'escape' should be super suspicious, like 'no unauthorized ships left the planet' suspicious. This plants the seed of ineptitude on behalf of both the Republic and the Jedi.

2. Actually, a Republic win on Geonosis would probably be appropriate AFTER the Jedi get their asses handed to them (i.e.: the space monks couldn't get the job done, but the armor-clad stormtroopers sure as hell could). Maybe it shouldn't have been so obviously a Separatist stronghold but a 'wavering' system that got out of hand. (Thus demonstrating that the soft-pedalled 'Jedi diplomacy' is inferior to military might) Also, the Jedi should never be Generals, but somewhat sidelined in the war (except for a few high-profile ones like Anakin)

3. Can't go with you on that one. Anakin needs to be seduced by the Dark Side, not tricked into becoming evil. He needs to utterly reject the Jedi way, not just do a couple bad things. Establishing a centralized villain is not as effective in terms of 'jading' a character as 'knocking down tin pot after tin pot with no end in sight' is. Actually, an amusing approach would be to have a 'double set-up' wherein we make the audience *think* Maul is going to be a central villain, but he gradually becomes so marginalized that by the time Anakin kills him; Skywalker barely notices.

2. I see. And in the final scene, while the Jedi are too busy mourning their dead, the Republic is already quickly mobilizing forces to deploy throughout the galaxy. This presents Anakin with a vision of a strong military taking the quick, decisive actions to end a war instead of sitting around and moping like the Jedi do.
Also, perhaps the Jedi's inaction during the war could draw from KOTOR, where a schism fractures the Jedi a bit. A few of the younger ones (led by Anakin) could join the effort like Revan did.

3. Hmmmm, I get what you're saying there, and it probably would be more effective.

 

[Peterpan]

nm i lied