State Legislature Attempts to Tax All Digital Downloads

Damien Granz

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Apr 8, 2011
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Hah, there's no way they're not going to tax online merchandise. It's not a matter of 'if', it's a matter of 'when, how much, and how'.

grigjd3 said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Further, I'm not sure what privacy implications this carries. To purchase something, you already give out personal information to the e-tailer. I don't see why using your state of residence to determine your sales tax is any more privacy violating than it is now.
It's not your state of residence. Where my apartment is has nothing to do with what sales tax I pay. If I take a trip to San Diego, I don't pay Tennessee sales tax when I go to the drug store. I pay California sales tax. If I buy something from my smartphone, some information needs to be processed about where I am. That's the problem. If I use the steam app to buy a game, steam has to determine where I currently am to determine what taxes are owed. It's possible, if this legislation is worded badly, the government will be requiring companies to track my movements. That's where this gets into privacy issues.
Uh, that information is already processed. Your phone already collects and processes that information. Your IP address and ISP provider also provide advertisers the same information, already. You've already lost that privacy battle ages ago.
 

Farther than stars

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Zachary Amaranth said:
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Sir Winston Churchill

I think it's the same way between parties on a democratic level. So yes, you might say that Democrats haven't backed video games 100% and you'd be correct, but can you truly say that the Republicans have done any better? When approaching this issue I think it's probably better to take a look at which party has done the least damage. To that end, who will you be voting for next election?
 

Nuke_em_05

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Mar 30, 2009
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grigjd3 said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Further, I'm not sure what privacy implications this carries. To purchase something, you already give out personal information to the e-tailer. I don't see why using your state of residence to determine your sales tax is any more privacy violating than it is now.
It's not your state of residence. Where my apartment is has nothing to do with what sales tax I pay. If I take a trip to San Diego, I don't pay Tennessee sales tax when I go to the drug store. I pay California sales tax. If I buy something from my smartphone, some information needs to be processed about where I am. That's the problem. If I use the steam app to buy a game, steam has to determine where I currently am to determine what taxes are owed. It's possible, if this legislation is worded badly, the government will be requiring companies to track my movements. That's where this gets into privacy issues.
Wrong.

https://apps.tn.gov/usetax/

If Tennessee sales tax is added to the price of your purchase, you DO NOT owe use tax. However, if you buy or ship merchandise to your Tennessee address and sales tax is not added to the price, then you are responsible for paying the use tax directly to the Department of Revenue. For example, sales tax is not always added to purchases through:
Internet
Telephone
Mail order catalogs, etc.
If the vendor doesn't collect sales tax, it is between you and the state.

Also, the vendor would determine sales tax by billing or shipping address; as many online vendors already do.
 

darksakul

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Jun 14, 2008
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Zachary Amaranth said:
bahumat42 said:
darksakul said:
Before you can start taxing downloads, something needs to be cleared up.

We need to make it clear are digital downloads property and goods or services rendered?
Who owns the game while DRM is involved me or the game publisher?
as far as im aware you own a license. Same as any other piece of software from adobe to word, and that license is valid until you break their terms of service.

At least thats how it is here. I don't know every set of laws for it everywhere.
In the States, however (Where this is taking place), game companies (and other media companies) are trying to play wave-particle duality and count as both for select purposes.
Thanks for that statement Zachary Amaranth, your words fit my feelings.

Many software companies (not just game studios) claim we the customer purchases a license to use said software and not the software it self. So we are paying for a service not a product.
Just read the EULA for Windows and Mac OSX, you do not own this copy of the Operating system your licensed to use the OS. So were paying receiving of data as a service, information not a product. As that stands (in most states) services do not get taxed.

But software publishers are maintains we get the license of using their data but its sold as a product.

As a media product, under a major part of copyright law in the US, the first sales doctrine The First sales doctrine states that a media, books, magazines, paintings, movies ect even video games, that individual copies are properties of the purchaser not the publisher and that purchaser has the rights under law to do with their property as they please, which includes selling their property, copying their own media (for own notes or back-up copies) and even destroying their property if they so choose to.

As of right now Digital downloaded media "purchase" online can not be sold, traded, copied or destroyed. Yes you can delete the download on your hard drive, but you can't stop having that download on your account, you can't sell, trade, gift or delete that media form your account.
 

Wintermoot

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waitwaitwait
the government is against piracy right?
then WHY make it less likeable to BUY the game instead of pirate it?
 

loa

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The problem here is that there is still the rest of the world out outside of fucking Connecticut, literally everyone with a computer and internet on the entire planet can access the same online shops.
This is in no way comparable to, say, buying cigarettes in a store in Connecticut.
 

Wicky_42

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AC10 said:
Oh you silly Americans, thinking an 8% sales tax is hefty :p
My instant reaction too.

Some people don't seem to realise that taxes are important, that a country with over 50% income tax has the highest happiness and satisfaction with life - too few taxes, weak society support, sad people and, oh look - trillions of dollar in debt to China.
 

Sovereignty

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Gonna have to join the minority here...

While I'm not happy about it, I don't think it's wrong for them to be seeking taxation on it... It would be pretty hypocritical of me to expect my hobbies to be tax-free, while other's can't expect the same.

Truth be told, I'd much rather them tax a HOBBY instead of say vegetables.
 

triggrhappy94

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California is trying to pass a law to tax any purchase online (ie Amazon or eBay). Not sure if it'd tax only residents or the companies, because I'm pretty sure both of them have their headquarters here.
The taxes main purpose would be to fund our schools, since a budget iniative (put on the ballot by voters) lowered property taxes. Then our legaslative made it so they didn't have to fund any iniative they didn't have money for. It pretty much left our schools without a lot of money. My high school is actually looking into lowering graduation requirements just so they can cut some classes and save money.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Okay, for those who don't really get this, let me spell it out for you.

As a resident of Connecticut one point here above and beyond anything else is that our sales tax is 6%, an 8% sales tax on digital goods means that the state is demanding the right to charge MORE for a digital product than a physical one. Part of the intent doubtlessly being to punish people involved in purchusing digital goods, to drive them to buying as many of those goods as possible from actual stores.

As things stand there is no real infrastructure in place for Connecticut to track and enforce this tax. This ultimatly means that consumers in Connecticut might very well be put into the awkward position where we can be held criminally liable if we do not keep track of our digital purchuses and hold back 8% of what we spend to report come tax time in case we're ever audited which might be a pain in the arse. Assuming of course the state doesn't put that responsibility on the E-merchants, many of whom aren't set up to track the taxes and such state by state to begin with. A state with a digital tax might very well find itself with merchants that just aren't willing to deal with the state.

This is to say nothing of services that involve point transactions, and how exactly Connecticut is going to say charge you 8% on say 800 Microsoft points, do they go by the value of the product? Do they tax the points themselves? What if I bought my point card out of state?

All of these issues are things that should be addressed and brought up publically before the state even considers creating a law like this, and so far that hasn't really happened. I confess to some concern over how this is going to turn out though, because Connecticut is in an odd position of being greedy and desperate and to be honest our state leadership has never been much for thinking ahead about how it's going to do things.

That said, I have mixed opinions about the state taxing digital "property" since it has no actual intristic value, nor does it's sale really involve much in the way of the state infrastructure. Sales tax being justified by the fact that your using state lands for the trucks that make deliveries, and the state ultimatly winds up paying the police that keep the businesses safe, and maintaining the neighborhoods, and similar things. That arguement doesn't really apply to digital commerce since really the state doesn't have much to do with that infrastructure and is already taxing or cutting deals with the various ISPS and such.

I'd be a little more receptive to the idea of the state taxing E-commerce, if the state was providing me more in the way of services involving it. Right now the state isn't even trying to protect me against companies trying to rape me with their EULAs and IP law arguements to take away what teneous control I have of my purchuses. I mean when the state isn't even willing to force businesses to concede that I own what I pay for (as opposed to simply being allowed to use it until the actual owner says otherwise), it's hard to say that they should have the right to tax me anything.

I don't think a lot of people think about how some of these taxes are justified to begin with. It's easy to see what the state does when physical properties and services are involved, and why it needs to collect monies to keep everything running smoothly. With electronic commerce there really isn't any demands placed on the state infrastructure that aren't already covered by other taxes and arrangements. It's not like the police force protects me from bandits robbing me on the road (funny, but it still applies somewhat if you really think about it) when I buy an app or book for my kindle since I'm not going anywhere or doing anything, and I already paid taxes on my computer, on the building where I set up my computer, and everything else.

It's paticularly ridiculous when you consider they want to charge me MORE taxes for these products that the state does less with to justify why it needs money from this to operate the system.

In the end I'd hope they are shot down, but sadly I expect later today the law might go through, simply because Connecticut will try for the cash grab, and rather wait to see how much trouble it raises. My state pretty much wants the money to add into the coffers in a general sense, and while I agree with the right to levy taxes, I believe just taxes are levied for specfic reasons. Most good taxes have a clear logic behind why you should have to pay them, having to do with the usage of the state infrastructure. Remember a state is NOT a business, it's a servant of the people, it collects money to keep itself running for the public good, the money it collects however needs to be justified, and where regular sales tax on physical property and sales CAN be justified, E-commerce cannot be, especially not to the level of saying it should be taxed 2% more than physical goods.

That's my thoughts on the subject, to be honest I could be persuaded here despite not wanting to pay it, I'd have to hear some very compelling arguements about how the state plans to collect these taxes, and exactly what justifies the collection... what expenses is the state incurring? Collecting taxes to build an infrastructure to collect those same taxes and maintain it is the kind of bureaucratic stupidity that I'd expect this to end with. If the short term purpose is to collect taxes so the money can be fed into other pork barrel projects and so politicians can keep paying themselves large salaries, then no... I oppose that on principle, that is not how one justifies taxing something.

Rambling and repetitive, but that's my thoughts.
 

SenseOfTumour

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Farther than stars said:
SenseOfTumour said:
Really tho, video games are something that the poor people do, because they can't afford a horse for polo and fox hunting, of course they'll tax it!
I guess that depends on what you call "poor people". In my opinion if you can afford any kind of gaming console, you're rich enough to pay tax.
Heh, I guess I was riffing on the opinions of the Conservative party, one of whom essentially said 'oh we can't ban smoking, it's one of the only pleasures the lower classes have.'

I should state tho, I do see gaming as a luxury, (tho it's essential to ME), and therefore taxing it is fair enough. I'm in favour of taxes in general tho, if you can afford cake/games/a new car, you can afford to fund street cleaning/the police/protecting the weakest in society. I know most people hate the protecting the poorest and weakest in society bit, but that's why its a tax and not a bucket by the side of the road saying 'donations please'.
 

Drejer43

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I honestly don't see the problem with this. Why does games have to be taxed at retailers but not online shops? where is the fairness in that?
 

Lunar Templar

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*shrugs*

all my digi downloads are through steam, they do have sales tax, and no, it doesn't bother me. every thing else has sales tax why should 'online' be any exception
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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grigjd3 said:
It's not your state of residence.
When it comes to e-commerce, it actually is as it stands. As such, I was merely shifting the tax calculations as they stand now to determination by store.

Sorry.

Additional point, I don't know what your sales tax rate is in state, but if you go to a state with lower sales tax, you actually have to pay the difference through your income tax. So in your example, say Tennessee has a lower sales tax, at the end of the year you are required to account for the difference. If not, you're lying on your taxes.

Farther than stars said:
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Sir Winston Churchill

I think it's the same way between parties on a democratic level. So yes, you might say that Democrats haven't backed video games 100% and you'd be correct, but can you truly say that the Republicans have done any better? When approaching this issue I think it's probably better to take a look at which party has done the least damage. To that end, who will you be voting for next election?
Oh dear Lord, way to shift the goalposts. Again. I suppose a complete "snip" of my comments is a method to make it easier to ignore what was being said before, but this is a cop-out answer so a straightforward and earnest question.

Please answer the questions. The ones you snipped and then shifted away from. I can repost them if you'd like.

Captcha: Face the music. Fitting.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Drejer43 said:
I honestly don't see the problem with this. Why does games have to be taxed at retailers but not online shops? where is the fairness in that?
When has fairness ever had anything to do with politics, taxes, or desires in this country?

Captcha: Know Your Rights. Holy Hell, these are weirdly appropriate today.
 

Farther than stars

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Oh dear Lord, way to shift the goalposts. Again. I suppose a complete "snip" of my comments is a method to make it easier to ignore what was being said before, but this is a cop-out answer so a straightforward and earnest question.

Please answer the questions. The ones you snipped and then shifted away from. I can repost them if you'd like.

Captcha: Face the music. Fitting.
Look, I'm perfectly willing to have an amicable discussion about this, but if you continue to purposefully insult I think I'm done here. And for the record, I cut out sections of posts to make the forums easier to read.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Farther than stars said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Oh dear Lord, way to shift the goalposts. Again. I suppose a complete "snip" of my comments is a method to make it easier to ignore what was being said before, but this is a cop-out answer so a straightforward and earnest question.

Please answer the questions. The ones you snipped and then shifted away from. I can repost them if you'd like.

Captcha: Face the music. Fitting.
Look, I'm perfectly willing to have an amicable discussion about this, but if you continue to purposefully insult I think I'm done here. And for the record, I cut out sections of posts to make the forums easier to read.
None of that was a } purposeful" insult. I asked you honest questions. You shifted the goalposts away from them. If you're "done" fine, but don't pretend I attacked you. I asked honest questions and you diverted away from you. That is not an amicable discussion, and please don't pretend otherwise. And if you find being called on your methods (goalpost shifting) to be "purposefully" insulting, don't use them.

Again:

I had honest questions I honestly wanted answered. You did not answer them, instead shifting the conversation in another direction. If you want things to be amicable, I suggest you demonstrate that through action.

And hell, if you do, I might actually answer your question about who I'm voting for.

But as it stands, you were talking about the Democrats in one light, and when I asked you some serious questions in that light, you switched to "who does the least damage?" That is not the same thing.