STEAM vs STEM, Liberal Arts vs Everyone Else, Everyone is Acting in Bad Faith etc.

Gergar12

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So there was an article on Reddit today about how they don't want art in STEM, and how STEAM is made up by the 'woke left' or 'academic liberals' because it has art in the acronym. Now I don't normally care, I am an economics and IR major. But something is missing from all of this, and if I were to summarize what I want to say about all of this my job/degree is better than yours it's this. The people in power don't care. They are setting you up against each other so that employment quotas are being met so that they don't have to pay you as much. One day art may lead to gainful employment at higher rates, today it's STEM(However that is being eroded due to what I am about to say), another day it's business majors, another day it's going to be trades.

The dumb argument is I am better than you because I took harder classes in college than you, and my degree is better for it because I think I will make more money than you. Why is that dumb, it's because the economy doesn't matter how hard your classes are, or your grades, they mostly just care how you market yourself, and your dynamism for your position. It's all current-day supply and demand.

Another dumb argument is my college is better than your college, therefore I am better than you, or I have a master's degree thus I am better than you. Why is that dumb, college rankings do change. Look at the news, there is investment banking standing that multiple Ivy League college students are blacklisted because of radical political student groups on them. Also with the master's degree, yes you get more training but generally, employers like experience over it.

So why are STEM majors doing this? One they are likely VERY insecure thus projecting confidence. To get good at programming you need to sit down and stare at a computer screen for long periods. Does that sound healthy to you? Staring at a computer screen is yes likely to get you more money if you training yourself with skills using it, but due to opportunity cost you not do something else like networking, meeting friends, doing other hobbies, and exercising. Balance is key, but programmers don't seem to realize that, and the ones that don't need a 'marketable' major as they are already in the top 10, 5, or 1 percent of IQ, and or wealth have connections and know the economic meta to speak. Also, fortune 1000 companies have been axing programmers and other white-collar jobs like crazy. This is likely because programmers trying to project strength at a moment of weakness. Onto engineers, yes you need complicated math that you will never use in the workplace for most jobs, and physics, and maybe Organic chemistry, but what does most of the job entail??? It's just Solidworks for parts, it's their version of MS Excel. I could do that, I used Solidworks in high school, and it was all design guess what's also important in art. Math is not very marketable by itself unless you know programming, and are being tested for the actuary exam, otherwise you likely going to go get a job as a teacher where you will be overworked like the education majors, and somewhat underpaid even in public schools unless you get a masters just like liberal arts.

Another dumb argument is because I took an IQ test, and I am smarter than you, therefore I am better than you. One there are a lot of swaths of MENSA members whose only redeeming quality is their high IQ. They get very little in terms of stuff in their life accomplished. The ones that are smart, and do get 'stuff done' are the people who are are the top in their industries. IQ is not at all indicative of success.

Onto Science: physics, unless you get a masters like the liberal arts, your best bet is investment banking or a job similar to it, and you better know financial software or business software or have internships like everyone else. Biology will get you less than many liberal arts majors as you will have to work as a lab tech, and it's over-supplied in the market.

But Gergar what about the bad majors like music, gender studies, criminology, and hospitality that are easy, and have employers hating on them? What about the bad liberal arts like Sociology, Political science, and even communications? Funny enough I had a communications major laugh at my degree in international relations, but had to go to grad school to get a job, yes that degree won't get you programming jobs or a quantitative investing job, but it depends on your networking skills, and increasingly social media skills which everyone seems to lack given Gen Z hates social interaction I can see a future where that is in demand, and that is true for every one of those majors. Music is a part of everyone's life without dynamic tracks media like movies, games, and TV shows would lose their luster, and we would see suicide rates increase now. Granted you don't need a music degree or theater degree for those jobs, just good looks, and a good voice(which will likely be more common as plastic surgery lowers costs in the future), but music is a vital part of life even if MBAs today can't see it. Criminology and hospitality are facing an undersupply of labor to the point where even if the unemployment statistics don't reflect it now they will in the future due to Genz Zerg rushing the CURRENT marketable degrees, and jobs. (me included somewhat), there won't be enough hotel managers, police officers, and related positions or even academic research on people's wants in the area, and no MBAs and high school grads won't be enough. Crime is increasing, travel is increasing, and eating out is AI-proof and is similar to fashion in recessions it decreases, in booms it increases. So yes we need criminology and hospitality.

Don't even get me started with construction management, everyone made fun of it, now it's booming in every sector and every major city and everywhere in the US. Political science may not be hot right now but it will be in the future due to increased wars, and government turmoil, everyone made fun of it, and now they aren't laughing anymore. Sociology is an interesting one to defend, but society is falling apart everywhere, guess who will have to analyze that? THEM. As for gender studies, I predict we will see a resurgence in it as gender norms change, and most importantly guess who's going to have to solve the men not dating women, and women not dating men, and loneliness crisis, I will give you a hint it's not history majors or programmers or even psychologists or biomedical people all of whom have failed, and made the problem worse with dating apps, in-game transactions, and so fore. It will have to be gender studies that solve it.

So what is true is there is a money-making meta for which jobs make the most money. Yes and no. If it were 5 years ago the answer would be the same as it always is the creators, and business owners who come from every skill, but now it's computer scientists who can learn linear algebra, calc 3, and can program AI like GPT-4, Claude, and so fore, but that will change. The current meta doesn't last forever, and they don't seem to even last years, if a business owner wants to lay X amount of people they don't care what your skillset is they will lay you off, if your company service or product has no customers they will close, and they need more than just STEM to not close they need sales, and they need marketers, and finance, and even maintenance like right now with companies laying off hundreds of thousands of workers.

So why is everyone acting in bad faith? It's because the business owners want people to fill in supply gaps. First, it was getting a college degree since so few had it to beat the USSR so people got all degrees, then it was STEM and tech, and then it was TEM minus the science. Now it's increasingly unclear and more likely the trades. But what is the ONE CONSTANT in all of this, it never stays the same. People who told you to get into tech will be calling you an idiot for not joining the trades, why because people are increasingly lonely, and INSECURE. But money at a certain point creates diminishing margins of returns. You cannot wish away depression and trauma from buying a larger computer, car, house, and so forth. It helps to have a baseline income. Happiness comes from relationships, the money meta always changes. People want to speak highly of their major to make more money and work less grueling jobs so they state their major is better than X to fill their insecurities. Business people and politicians want you to skill-up for the current meta, but once everyone becomes X, X will get oversupplied.
 

tstorm823

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This doesn't contribute much to what you're saying, but a Catholic School I'm aware of decided to use STREAM as an acronym, and if that annoys me, I bet the crowd here will hate it.
 

Thaluikhain

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This doesn't contribute much to what you're saying, but a Catholic School I'm aware of decided to use STREAM as an acronym, and if that annoys me, I bet the crowd here will hate it.
Well, they could have used MASTER instead to really annoy people.
 
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Gergar12

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Well, they could have used MASTER instead to really annoy people.
What's annoying is the STEM lords who argue that UPS drivers shouldn't make as much when they were able to collectively bargain to do so, but that's not playing 'fair'.
 

Ag3ma

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So there was an article on Reddit today about how they don't want art in STEM, and how STEAM is made up by the 'woke left' or 'academic liberals' because it has art in the acronym.
Well, it kind of seems like bullshit marketing.

But on the other hand, it's not like there isn't a large interface between art and technology: think for instance film and TV CGI, aesthetic considerations are important in huge quantities of engineering projects (buildings, toys, electronic devices), and so on.

What's annoying is the STEM lords...
Yeah, but do remember that "STEM lords" are basically arseholes.

I think you have something of a point when you mention "insecurity" in the OP. STEM is generally fairly well paid, but often relatively low in status / hierarchy and much less well paid than a lot of other jobs. STEM has been far from immune from funding cuts, crappy contracts ("Microserfs") etc. so sometimes the jobs aren't necessarily there. Potentially there is also a social element - many STEM are perhaps socially awkward and envious. That insecurity can breed expressions of contempt.
 

Gergar12

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Well, it kind of seems like bullshit marketing.

But on the other hand, it's not like there isn't a large interface between art and technology: think for instance film and TV CGI, aesthetic considerations are important in huge quantities of engineering projects (buildings, toys, electronic devices), and so on.



Yeah, but do remember that "STEM lords" are basically arseholes.

I think you have something of a point when you mention "insecurity" in the OP. STEM is generally fairly well paid, but often relatively low in status / hierarchy and much less well paid than a lot of other jobs. STEM has been far from immune from funding cuts, crappy contracts ("Microserfs") etc. so sometimes the jobs aren't necessarily there. Potentially there is also a social element - many STEM are perhaps socially awkward and envious. That insecurity can breed expressions of contempt.
The problem with STEM, and STEAM is that no matter what you choose you are at the whims of the market, supply, and demand. Look at tech right now. It's falling apart as the pandemic ends. Art on the other hand is variable if you are a good artist with social connections to the rich you will make bank if not like many people on patreon, you won't make a good amount of money, and god-help you if you are an artist for a gaming company that will work you to the bone like the programmers there.

The meta for any white-collar jobs right now is to bounce jobs every 1-2 years, and ask for more money, and basically ax your social connections over, and over again. It's something I hate, but have to live with. As long as you get your first job your golden.

There are social workers and IT people to finance people doing this.
 

EvilRoy

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I think you have something of a point when you mention "insecurity" in the OP. STEM is generally fairly well paid, but often relatively low in status / hierarchy and much less well paid than a lot of other jobs. STEM has been far from immune from funding cuts, crappy contracts ("Microserfs") etc. so sometimes the jobs aren't necessarily there. Potentially there is also a social element - many STEM are perhaps socially awkward and envious. That insecurity can breed expressions of contempt.
I think this is most of it, there's a lot of sour grapes.

For a long time there was this perception, particularly where I'm located, that engineering was the job that would tear down money, and it was a good option for someone inclined to get into the sciences who wanted a defined job after. These days people are realizing that all that glittered was pyrite. The money dried up, or it was a lie. Doctors make way more, Lawyers make way more, but somehow engineers carry an equally high burden of not killing/fucking over the life of people as those other two fields. Doctoring requires different skills and a lot more time and dedication to justify that pay difference, but Lawyering kind of doesn't, and people feel ripped off. Of course that's bullshit anyway - the job market in law is just as fucked as in engineering, but nobody wants to address the fact that there aren't enough jobs to support even half the graduates in either field each year. Medical job prospects are way better, but they'll try to work you to death before you get your first pay raise, and I hope you don't mind biological fluids.

Then there's the hardcore science majors, who put in the insane time and dedication to get a Phd in physics or etymology or ichthyology only to find out that all that time, energy and brainpower means fuck all to a world that doesn't have a job for them to do. You can be truly brilliant and doing the lab equivalent of flipping burgers because there are now, and will always be, more well published physicists than there are jobs for them. I have a friend who is patiently waiting for enough old people in their field to fucking die so they have a chance at a career, while they pick up 4 month long government contracts to live. Its a kick in the pants to work for a decade to achieve something only to get paid less money than you would if you had gone to trade school to be a plumber.
 

Cheetodust

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I remember talking to friends of mine, one in banking, one in insurance, about automation and AI. And saying that odds are their jobs will be automated before mine. I'm a barista/coffee roaster currently and while machines are certainly doing my job we're a long way off them doing it as well, nevermind better. For one, Machines can't taste. We have recipes and roast profiles but those are really just guidelines that someone with experience will know how to modify to get the most out of the beans which is done largely through taste testing. We know what to do if espresso is too bland, sour or bitter we also know what to do when roasting if a sample tastes muted or you want to accentuate certain flavours. The second is, people don't get coffee from a machine in the garage for the same reason they go to their local coffee shop. Many people return to coffee shops because they like the staff. Nobody "likes" their car insurance guy.

On the other side, personal training and strength coaching. There's enough studies and research out there that I'm sure you can very easily make a competent AI to create and develop training plans for people. But honestly that's not the whole reason people pay trainers. Trainers motivate you, they're company in the gym, they provide encouragement, they can spot you, they can push you, they can even just judge how you're feeling on a particular day and scale the workout on the fly.

My point wasn't that their jobs are less valuable or aren't difficult, just that what they do involves a lot more objectivity and exact maths and doesn't really rely on (or reward) a human touch. And there are a lot of "good" jobs which have similar requirements. Hell even here in Ireland I've seen wages stagnate or drop in computer science from when I studied it 15 years ago purely because so many people were either pushed or drawn into it that there are just far far more qualified people in that field than there was back then. I have friends younger than me who are in senior roles with the same salaries that recent graduates were making back when I was in my early 20's. It's also why we have people in trades able to make serious money now, far fewer people of my generation and younger were encouraged into those roles and now there's a dearth of skilled tradesmen. This is purely from memory and could be completely inaccurate but I have a vague recollection of reading that something like 60% of skilled tradesmen working now will be retired by 2030.

Really there's no way to predict what jobs will be the real money makers 20 years down the line or what skills will be in demand. Particularly, if everyone decides to go into a handful of fields that are currently in demand, it's gonna really skew things down the line.
 

Ag3ma

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This is purely from memory and could be completely inaccurate but I have a vague recollection of reading that something like 60% of skilled tradesmen working now will be retired by 2030.
Well, I had my bathroom done years ago, and the plasterer happily told me how much he made a year, which was about the same as me with my PhD - although I was just s senior postdoc back then, plus working in the public sector which has low pay relative to private sector requiring equivalent skills and qualifications.

It's absolutely true that if you're in the right trade, you can earn a lot. The trick will be that other people are going to notice, and over time you can probably expect a lot more people to train up in your area which will probably then depress income.
 

Cheetodust

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It's absolutely true that if you're in the right trade, you can earn a lot. The trick will be that other people are going to notice, and over time you can probably expect a lot more people to train up in your area which will probably then depress income.
That's kind of my point though. Demand is always going to affect wages.
 

Eacaraxe

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A lot of this discrepancy comes from decades-long slander and general disrespect for trades, which led folks to severely underestimate what constitutes a proper "trades" education nowadays. The idea plumbers, electricians, technicians, and the like are glorified day laborers is just absolute bullshit.

Hell, I had a buddy at Amazon who wanted some tutoring for his HVAC classes, exams, and certs. I agreed, happy to help and figuring it couldn't be that bad, and bro comes at me with fluid mechanics and thermodynamics problems that left me running for undergrad physics and chemistry books I hadn't touched in fifteen years. Kind of shit you'd expect a nuclear engineer to have to deal with, and it's something I actually mentioned to him. He pointed out something that had never occurred to me: reactor coolant and power loops are HVAC systems, they just operate in the 200-900 degree range (and are radioactive) opposed to the 70-90 degree range.

That, from a guy who trolled our department's management hierarchy by calling out our pending inventory was above BOFA threshold. About two hours of chaotic pants-shitting, collective ass-coverage later, they figured it out. He probably would have lost his job over it, but for the fact site management would have to explain to regional why and how they lost over two hundred hours' of labor over a "deez nutz" joke.
 
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Satinavian

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STEAM seems just yet another marketing gimmick as far as i can see.

It still means all the same STEM subjects as before (so actual main job artists are not included) but with additional, poorely defined softskills on top.
And people not even sure what the term is meant to be. STEM + creativity ? arts as a gateway to STEM ? interdisciplinarity (but not actually any involvement of arts) ? "Holistic education that puts student personality into focus" while learning STEM ? Cool visual tools while learning STEM ?

It is an inconsistent bunch of hot marketing garbage, nothing more. Not a single article actually mentions to want to use art degrees or having them in similar positions as STEM degrees. The closest i got was "managers need people skills more than technical knowledge, even if they manage technicians", which is... nothing new or surprising.


This fad will be forgotten next year.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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So this thread seems very nicely aimed at getting me to reply as I am qualified in a Stem field.

So here's the argument and issue with the STEAM acronym.

It feels all too "And us too" from a field who lets be honest has far more people interested in it than Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths. To begin with because on some level everyone wants some level of expression even as a hobby so budding film directors, actors etc etc are in far more supply than people who know STEM stuff to begin with.

Then you look at the career prospects and top of their fields and well during the fucking Covid Pandemic a leading scientist got asked why when she makes €1 Million a year that 2 months in she and her team hadn't got a workable cure or vaccination for the coronavirus yet. Her response was to tell said journalist to ask any of the national football team how they've not won the world cup yet and cured coronavirus when most of them are paid €1 Euro a month if they thought pay should be an indication of getting results.

STEM is a vastly undervalued field in the public consciousness, can anyone name any of the lead researched who helped make the Covid 19 vaccine? Without using google?

But you can probably name the director of Pulp Fiction without googling it. Hell most people will be able to name the director of The Shape of Water without googling it.

Sorry but STEM isn't arts.
Generally:
Stem degrees require more time input than arts degrees (There's literally some degrees you can opt for BSC or BA in with the BA being less work to get)
Have higher costs (Dissection kits for the Biology lot in my team were £80 a pop and no they couldn't use university supplies they were required to buy their own)

It's all well and good to go "Oh well you should have used your time on other stuff" what time? when (and this is a real example) some-one studying a history degree and 1 hour of lectures a day first year and people in Stem are starting on 4 hour a day on average (not including the 6 hours a week labs) it's a rather stupid argument when one set of degrees actually give more time.

Next is the issue of what is being considered the A in the STEAM acronym. I have a lot of respect for people doing actual art (drawing sculpture etc etc) and film / related stuff be in directing or editing or many of the other behind the scenes stuff and also those studying music. The issue being the subjects people see somewhat as lets say trying to pretend to be core STEM trying to muscle in on STEM more, I mentioned the whole BSC vs BA qualification previously but some fields only offer the BA but pretend to be STEM still, e.g. the many Jack Thompson supporters who had arts related degrees espousing how Science proved video games were harmful when it was them and their peers research in fields with far less stringent requirements if proof. You know what the standard for "significance" is in some arts fields? A correlation of 0.3 is enough to suggest a claim has some support in the returned evidence. In most actual Stem fields that's 0.75 correlation and even then you're required to account for the potential of those not fitting the pattern nor merely say "the evidence seems to indicate some support for the hypothesis" or something.

Oh and none of this is helped when you have people who did come from Liberal Arts degrees espousing things about how they think Magneto was right and Charles Xavier therefore wrong or that they can't wait for AI and automation to replace blue collar workers.


And to finish off an Actor does STEM vs Arts


Oh and I also have a qualification (not as high as my degree but the level below in in Theatre Studies lol)

What's annoying is the STEM lords who argue that UPS drivers shouldn't make as much when they were able to collectively bargain to do so, but that's not playing 'fair'.
Ok anecdote time which will lead into my point.

When I was searching for a job this is an actual advert for a Steam job I ran across (summarised)

Requirements:
PHD in Science minimum
Own car
Driven personality
Willing to do what is required

Pay:
£5.93 per hour worked (for those who don't know this at the time was UK minimum wage)

Job description:
We require a dynamic self motivated person with a PHD in science to cover absences in our UK lab network as and when required. If hired you will be required to make yourself available as and when required to cover any vacancy in our UK lab network at short notice of sometimes 18 hours from when required, we will expect you to be available to work as required and as such do not expect you to accept other work. It should be noted we will not be paying you any kind of retainer or on call money. Once requested you will be required to make your own way to the lab in our UK network which spans from Northern Scotland to Southern London which requires you to cover the absence and start promptly on the day required. You will either then keep working at said lab until the staff member returns or be notified of where you are required to be next which could be in any part of our lab network so you must be prepared to do what is required of you and not accept this position lightly.
*Please note you will not be paid an allowance for petrol or travel expenses and also will not be paid for hours travelling too and from location only hours worked at said lab requiring you to cover.


This is why people in STEM are pissed off and the whole collective bargaining thing doesn't work for STEM as it's less obvious when they walk out until the proverbial shit hits the fan. People in STEM are seen as easy targets for companies to take advantage of and then you get all this corporate crying about people leaving their jobs and having no corporate loyalty, because the companies don't care in the end and are crying because people in STEM are finding a way to make them care suddenly.

STEM should be seen as more important and fight far more for funding. Where I literally studied my degree no longer has the department I studied in because of costs. Over 125 years and they closed the department because it costs that much to run STEM departments and this was without the latest tech it had a running cost of £4.5 Million per year for the department at least. People very much only seem to care for Stem in terms of a "Fix our problems STEM person" rather than understanding the funding is needed to be kept going and pumped into it to allow the problems to be researched and solved not expected to be pulling magic rabbits from hats with little to no time just because suddenly people are throwing funding at it. But hey why fund it when you could fund research into better hairspray and make people who want to help and make the world a better place just have to research that instead.


Oh also to be clear STEM for fucking years has been having to do a lot of underhanded stuff to try and get funding from governments, E.G. The Genome project stuff was literally done and marketed as such a way to get Stem more funding and spun as that mostly as have other things been.
 

Ag3ma

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It's all well and good to go "Oh well you should have used your time on other stuff" what time? when (and this is a real example) some-one studying a history degree and 1 hour of lectures a day first year and people in Stem are starting on 4 hour a day on average (not including the 6 hours a week labs) it's a rather stupid argument when one set of degrees actually give more time.
That's not how it works.

In the UK, for instance, years of study are broken down into academic credits - 120 per year, distributed across modules - usually about 3-6. Every point of academic credit carries similar notional weight, learning time (10h) and assessment burden irrespective of subject. However, what form the learning time takes may differ. At the simplest level, there's directed learning (i.e. classroom work and other things students are explicitly directed to do) and independent learning (i.e. that students do on their own initiative, including revision). A course that has more directed study time therefore has less independent study time, because the total study time is required to sum up to the same notional 10h per credit.

You can of course argue that students on a module with more non-directed learning have more time to slob around and not work. But then, as university staff would note, many students with directed study simply skip classes.

It is therefore effectively a myth that science students have to work harder.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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That's not how it works.

In the UK, for instance, years of study are broken down into academic credits - 120 per year, distributed across modules - usually about 3-6. Every point of academic credit carries similar notional weight, learning time (10h) and assessment burden irrespective of subject. However, what form the learning time takes may differ. At the simplest level, there's directed learning (i.e. classroom work and other things students are explicitly directed to do) and independent learning (i.e. that students do on their own initiative, including revision). A course that has more directed study time therefore has less independent study time, because the total study time is required to sum up to the same notional 10h per credit.

You can of course argue that students on a module with more non-directed learning have more time to slob around and not work. But then, as university staff would note, many students with directed study simply skip classes.

It is therefore effectively a myth that science students have to work harder.
In theory yes,
In practice no

Because it's based on estimations of time usage that are often way off. Even within the sciences there's examples. E.G. I specialised in organic chemistry for my dissertation and those who specialised in computational chemistry had the exact same 18 hours lab time as me per week. Me and all the others who chose organic were doing at least 3 hours a week additional work outside of that allotted 18 hours and were still working on finishing dissertations up until close to the day it was due because how it worked out was we were doing lab work for the 18 hours then having to write up after meanwhile those doing computational chemistry (and they'll happily admit it) were mostly finished and written up 2 weeks before the due date and most weeks didn't work all their 18 hours because it's just how the workloads for each area worked out.

Reality rarely pans out how in theory weightings say it should.


Another actual more sold example.
A B-Tec was weighted as a C-grade GCSE at one point.
I literally helped mark B-tec work and some GCSE work.
I could pass B-Tec work which if it were for a GCSE project would have maybe got a low D if it was lucky.
But the educational system claimed they were equivalent.
In reality B-Tec work was about the equivalent work you could give to a top set year 8 class. Let alone GCSE grade.
 

Satinavian

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Yes, universities generally do want their courses to be roughly equal in difficulty. They are neither interested in students wasting their time and the degrees being worthless nor in most students dropping out because they can't follow their curriculum. How well that is achieved in practise might be another question but the fault lines don't run along broad categories like stem vs arts.

If some degrees really cover easier and less stuff, they tend to require shorter study time while each semester is still packed as dense as usual.


I still think STEAM is a silly marketing stunt. But that has nothing to do with thinking science to be fundamentally superior to art or something.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Yes, universities generally do want their courses to be roughly equal in difficulty. They are neither interested in students wasting their time and the degrees being worthless nor in most students dropping out because they can't follow their curriculum. How well that is achieved in practise might be another question but the fault lines don't run along broad categories like stem vs arts.

If some degrees really cover easier and less stuff, they tend to require shorter study time while each semester is still packed as dense as usual.


I still think STEAM is a silly marketing stunt. But that has nothing to do with thinking science to be fundamentally superior to art or something.
And each department is in charge of working out the weighting etc really which is where part of the issue comes in.
 

Ag3ma

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In theory yes,
In practice no
In practice, all courses should be roughly comparable in workload. A single anecdote about a single project doesn't demonstrate anything much at all.

And each department is in charge of working out the weighting etc really which is where part of the issue comes in.
Each department has their work scrutinised from multiple sources - internally, externally (external examiners), thorough oversight a university quality assurance team which itself works within a national quality assurance framework because universities are tightly regulated public sector institutions. Hence the Office for Students, plus all manner of legal routes (OIA, court cases) available to students in the case of a problem.

Look, I don't blame you in a way. When I did my degree, I had similar fanciful ideas about how it all was too. But the me of today has been course lead for a university degree programme, and so I have a very different and more detailed idea of what goes on.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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In practice, all courses should be roughly comparable in workload. A single anecdote about a single project doesn't demonstrate anything much at all.
Actually more like 14 projects, as we didn't all do the same 3rd year dissertation projects even in the same sub fields of chemistry. Just the generalised subcategories were the difference.

Also the people doing Ocean Science spent on average only 8 hours a week on theirs (I sometimes had shared modules with them)


Each department has their work scrutinised from multiple sources - internally, externally (external examiners), thorough oversight a university quality assurance team which itself works within a national quality assurance framework because universities are tightly regulated public sector institutions. Hence the Office for Students, plus all manner of legal routes (OIA, court cases) available to students in the case of a problem.
Which only matter if they work in practice not in theory. And as most people know theory and practice and two very different things.


Look, I don't blame you in a way. When I did my degree, I had similar fanciful ideas about how it all was too. But the me of today has been course lead for a university degree programme, and so I have a very different and more detailed idea of what goes on.
For your own subject, just the one. Not what other departments do and say
 

Ag3ma

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2023
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Also the people doing Ocean Science spent on average only 8 hours a week on theirs (I sometimes had shared modules with them)
And what other work were they doing or was expected of them?

For your own subject, just the one. Not what other departments do and say
There are two issues here.

Firstly, this is just a terrible argument because you have vastly less perspective than I do. You have the experience of doing a degree. I have the experience of doing a degree, plus teaching on about ten degrees across my career, and having worked at four universities. This logic is only ever going to be saying that your opinion is less robust than mine.

Secondly, what do you think external oversight is if not people from different departments (and in the case of external examiners, different universities) scrutinising?