Tech News TodayBobDobolina said:Quote some sources. I provided some data to work with: your turn.RelexCryo said:Care to explain how a percentage that is mostly made up
http://www.ehow.com/about_5392976_fun-online-games-women.html
Tech News TodayBobDobolina said:Quote some sources. I provided some data to work with: your turn.RelexCryo said:Care to explain how a percentage that is mostly made up
BobDobolina said:I'm still waiting for a link that supports this contention. The Sims and WOW are not "social networking games and puzzle games" last time I checked. Nor do female preferences for them indicate that their dollars are off-limits to the FPS market; the FPS market has declared that itself, by being preemptively dismissive of the possibility that it can capture their dollars.RelexCryo said:Care to explain how a percentage that is mostly made up of social networking games and puzzle games
And, bringing us full circle, in the case of Brink, there was enough money.RelexCryo said:Whether or not you see something as absolutely essential has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not there is enough money to do it. No amount of percieving female character designs as absolutely necessary will generate enough money to produce them.
I'm arguing that designing things for one gender is inherently silly.You are arguing that this game(not the industry, just this game) should try to be inclusive. What is the basis for your reasoning? Are you implying that designing games for men is inherently wrong? And if so, do you believe that writing books, designing t.v. shows, or videogames for women is inherently wrong?
I am not opposed to the idea at all. I am opposed to the fact that you are underestimating the cost and time required by a lot. You seem to think people are objecting to your goals. They are not. They are objecting to your demands that the developers spend large amounts of money and wait even longer to release a game with what they percieve as a small payoff. If it was cheap, I would be all for it. It is not. You state there was enough money. What is your basis for saying that?Soylent Dave said:And, bringing us full circle, in the case of Brink, there was enough money.RelexCryo said:Whether or not you see something as absolutely essential has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not there is enough money to do it. No amount of percieving female character designs as absolutely necessary will generate enough money to produce them.
In Call of Duty, there's enough money, too. Still no women, though.
Oddly enough, it's the smaller games, with lower budgets, that seem more likely to include female protagonists and NPCs.
I'm arguing that designing things for one gender is inherently silly.You are arguing that this game(not the industry, just this game) should try to be inclusive. What is the basis for your reasoning? Are you implying that designing games for men is inherently wrong? And if so, do you believe that writing books, designing t.v. shows, or videogames for women is inherently wrong?
It's even more silly when you're trying to eke out a living in a niche market (gaming) - no, hang on part of a niche market (FPS gaming) - but you've still decided that you don't want some of the lovely money and customers available from the gender you've decided not to invite to your game.
You can get away with targeting products at a single gender when your target audience is 'everyone' (like TV); when your target audience is already narrowed to 'people who like playing computer games', then narrowing it still further is stupid and wasteful.
But mostly I don't like a gamer culture that deliberately, consciously and continuously alienates other humans.
I really don't see why so many people are so opposed to the idea of inclusion; are you all worried you'll have to play the next CoD in a bra and panties?
Or just that you'll get beaten by a girl?
Imp Emissary said:Games Industry: What if, now hear me out, we put the "normal" girls in skimpy outfits?michaelknives52 said:lesterley said:Ah yes. I game that completely objectifies the female body.HankMan said:Maybe splash damage is just likes dicking around.
They might have been jiggling with the idea, but I think that's been donelesterley said:So the idea of making a game with all FEMALE characters is completely incomprehensible?
<youtube=Hid4iyBeWkw>
So you can only have a game with all-female characters if the main purpose of their existence is to appeal to the male gaze?
YES!!! Pretty much because a larger portion of the video game community is comprised of males and thats the target demographic and the majority of games are created by male developers. Yes sexism still exists. Call of duty would look pretty silly with females running around shooting gus with double D sized breasts... that only makes sense in fighting games like dead or alive or mortal kombat. Perhap you can create a game that is comprised of females with normal sized chests... and watch you company burn to ashs and fail
My first basis is that Zenimax Media Inc (the people who own Bethesda) are a highly profitable production company.RelexCryo said:You state there was enough money. What is your basis for saying that?
Modern Warfare 2 sold 20 million copies worldwide, making around $1bn in revenue. That makes it one of the best selling games ever made. Grand Theft Auto IV has sold a similar number of copies over a longer period of time, so the revenue isn't as high (but they've made at least $700,000 out of it so far). World of Warcraft has 12 million subscribers.As for your comment that PC gaming is a "Niche Market-" Brink was released on both Xbox 360 and PS3 in addition to PC. Gaming has also become mainstream. You argument that it is still a "niche" is flatout wrong.
That's certainly part of the problem - that most game designers are men. But there is a massive level of exclusion going on in the gaming community (from both designers and gamers alike). And things aren't being aimed at 'mostly' men; they're being aimed 'exclusively' at men. That's definitely a problem.As for your comment that developing things for one gender is silly-You are being immature. There are certain comments and designs that inherently appeal more to one gender than another. A Game Designer's ultimate goal is not to make money, but simply to make something they like while making money. If a design team winds up being mostly men, the product they make winds up being mostly aimed towards what they want.
Here is a direct quote from Shamus, the guy who wrote this article:Soylent Dave said:My first basis is that Zenimax Media Inc (the people who own Bethesda) are a highly profitable production company.RelexCryo said:You state there was enough money. What is your basis for saying that?
Many of the other high profile producers are also highly profitable (EA, Activision). The money clearly exists ($1.89bn was spent on videogame funding in 2010, which is a massive (30%) increase over 2009); it's just being spent on other things.
The time also exists; it's being spent on other things too. The vast amount of customisation of (male) characters in Brink could - for example - have been limited slightly (probably with little impact on the end user) by spending some of those resources on designing female characters (I'd hope there would be a certain amount of crossover, so it wouldn't be entirely an either/or prospect anyway)
It's also notable that more independent titles - those with ostensibly less money - seem more likely to include female options and characters (from Lara Croft onwards (Core were an independent studio when they developed Tomb Raider)).
Modern Warfare 2 sold 20 million copies worldwide, making around $1bn in revenue. That makes it one of the best selling games ever made. Grand Theft Auto IV has sold a similar number of copies over a longer period of time, so the revenue isn't as high (but they've made at least $700,000 out of it so far). World of Warcraft has 12 million subscribers.As for your comment that PC gaming is a "Niche Market-" Brink was released on both Xbox 360 and PS3 in addition to PC. Gaming has also become mainstream. You argument that it is still a "niche" is flatout wrong.
When you compare that to movies : Avatar made $6bn, Titanic made $2bn. They're the best grossing films ever.
The average blockbuster nowadays makes about $600m. The average 'cult' film makes about $50m.
Note how much more a game costs than a movie ticket; how many more people saw Die Hard 4.0 (~$800m) than bought MW2? It's not much of a stretch to say "infinitely more" .
Modern Warfare 2 - one of the most popular games ever - had the same number of players at its height as view the average British soap opera (~8m)
The number of people who bought it is roughly the populations of London, Manchester & Scotland added together. It's not a small number of people - but it's still a niche market, because we're talking about global sales.
It's a niche market, because the mainstream still treat gaming as something a bit weird. Whenever World of Warcraft has a major release, the new reports always focus on the people dressed up in queues. The fact that the mainstream media are noticing things like WoW updates and CoD releases means gaming is moving towards the mainstream (it's now big enough to be noticed by it), but we're not there yet.
(one other way you can tell that gaming isn't mainstream is that there are no girls allowed, incidentally)
It's not too worrying - niches can get pretty damn big (Professional Wrestling (33m viewers at its peak, Formula 1 (527m fans), NASCAR (75m fans); I wouldn't call any of those 'mainstream' but they're all bigger than the apparent 'videogamer' niche of 20m)
That's certainly part of the problem - that most game designers are men. But there is a massive level of exclusion going on in the gaming community (from both designers and gamers alike). And things aren't being aimed at 'mostly' men; they're being aimed 'exclusively' at men. That's definitely a problem.As for your comment that developing things for one gender is silly-You are being immature. There are certain comments and designs that inherently appeal more to one gender than another. A Game Designer's ultimate goal is not to make money, but simply to make something they like while making money. If a design team winds up being mostly men, the product they make winds up being mostly aimed towards what they want.
Look at some of the responses in this thread - there are people who really don't want girls to play games. And saying "that's just the way it is" isn't (or shouldn't be) a good enough reason to keep it that way.
Is it because gamers are typically nerdy, and nerds are frightened of girls? Or just because nerds are frightened of change?
Shamus has also admitted that's he's not exactly up to date when it comes to modern game design, and that he could well be overstating the point there.RelexCryo said:Here is a direct quote from Shamus, the guy who wrote this article:
[snip]
"So, doing two models instead of just one is more than twice the work. There's all the work for making the men. Then you have to do all of that work again, because none of it can be re-used for the women. Then you need more work to ensure the models are balanced against each other and inter-operate properly."
[snip]
So my point stands- you are heavily underestimating how expensive and difficult it is. You can't just take out a few outfits to create the time necessary. The time and effort necessary to create female character models is far, far greater than several outfits.
(which isn't necessarily the case - and, of course a game designed to have male and female characters (rather than having women tacked on at the end) could definitely find a more efficient way of doing things that does re-use assets)Shamus (from his blog) said:If those body-types are three separate models, then there really is no excuse not to drop one of the three males and add a female. I'm working on the assumption that there was ONE base model, with various deformations applied
which I think is the important bit (for your argument as well, really).Shamus said:The point I was making is that it's non-trivial.
My argument is that more women would like games if they included female protagonists and characters.ReflexCryo said:Traditionally, women are less interested in violent wargames. You argue that is because these games don't try to market themselves to men and women equally. But in the end, your assertion that a similar amount of women would like violent wargames if they were designed with athletic female protagonists is an assumption.
My point is that while FPS franchises that are established, and are practically guaranteed to at least break even on a sequel should add female characters, new franchises whose ability to turn a profit at all face a large risk by doing so. The cost simply stands to outway the increased income. For an established franchise, or even an established developer (This is the first game Splash Damage has built from the ground up, before they only did parts of other studio's games) the risk is not a big issue. For a brand new franchise, that is the first game released by a Studio, the problem of a significantly increased cost vs. a slight increase in income is a serious issue, especially in a recession.Soylent Dave said:Shamus has also admitted that's he's not exactly up to date when it comes to modern game design, and that he could well be overstating the point there.RelexCryo said:Here is a direct quote from Shamus, the guy who wrote this article:
[snip]
"So, doing two models instead of just one is more than twice the work. There's all the work for making the men. Then you have to do all of that work again, because none of it can be re-used for the women. Then you need more work to ensure the models are balanced against each other and inter-operate properly."
[snip]
So my point stands- you are heavily underestimating how expensive and difficult it is. You can't just take out a few outfits to create the time necessary. The time and effort necessary to create female character models is far, far greater than several outfits.
(which isn't necessarily the case - and, of course a game designed to have male and female characters (rather than having women tacked on at the end) could definitely find a more efficient way of doing things that does re-use assets)Shamus (from his blog) said:If those body-types are three separate models, then there really is no excuse not to drop one of the three males and add a female. I'm working on the assumption that there was ONE base model, with various deformations applied
and also
which I think is the important bit (for your argument as well, really).Shamus said:The point I was making is that it's non-trivial.
-
But even if I am grossly underestimating the time and effort it would take to create female characters in a game (a worst case scenario is what, double the development cost?) - I still don't think that means they shouldn't be included. We shouldn't be thinking of female characters in terms of how much extra time and effort it takes to put them into a game - we should be thinking of them as something that is part of every game as a matter of course.
If it's a lot of work, it should be standard practice for every developer to have a 'female character design team' on staff to complement its 'male character design team'.
Why? Because we've been making games for decades now, and we're making them more complicated with every release. We can afford to make them a bit more complicated still, especially if it a) makes them more inclusive and b) expands the demographic (even if it's only slightly).
(in reality I think it's more work than some have been suggesting ("just put breasts on some male characters") and less work than others have been claiming ("female characters would have to be designed completely separate to all other game assets"))
My argument is that more women would like games if they included female protagonists and characters.ReflexCryo said:Traditionally, women are less interested in violent wargames. You argue that is because these games don't try to market themselves to men and women equally. But in the end, your assertion that a similar amount of women would like violent wargames if they were designed with athletic female protagonists is an assumption.
I don't think the number of gamers would double - because you're right, not all female gamers are going to be interested in this sort of game (just like not all male gamers are). But I think 'more' would still be a noticeable increase, because we know - from anecdotal reports if nothing else - that some women are put off by the male-dominated nature of certain genres of gaming.
That's still an assumption, of course - but it's not exactly a wild stab in the dark; it's an issue that gets brought up again and again.
Is it going to be enough new games to make up for the increased development cost? Well (aside from the fact that the cost of including female characters will go down if it becomes normal practice), I don't think it matters too much.
The fact that it may increase sales is a reason to do it, but it's not the only reason, nor is it (to my mind) the most important one. It'll (probably) increase the number of gamers, that's an important one.
It's a step towards increasing cohesion and decreasing prejudice (which is currently rife) within the gaming community, that's the best one.
-
I will add, because I realised it earlier and it's been annoying me, that my estimate of the 'gaming niche' in my last post was unfairly low - I shouldn't have just used MW2 as the benchmark; there are 75m PSN accounts, 30m xbox live subscribers and 25m Steam subscribers; the number of gamers is probably somewhere between 30m and 75m (there are a lot of duplicate accounts on PSN, partly because it's free and partly because you can't delete anything - but it's probably still closer to 75m than 30m, which means gaming is nearly as popular as NASCAR(!)).
That's definitely a more than fair point.RelexCryo said:I am not objecting that you want the industry in general to add athletic female protagonists, just that you expect Splash Damage, the developers of Brink, to do this. This is a new franchise, and the first game they have created. We are in a recession. Cost to income ratios are extremely important at this point for them. It's pretty important that the first game they release produces a profit, preferrably a significant one.
right...except I only played 1 COD game once, and Halo Reach has female Spartan options :/-Samurai- said:According to your profile, you play Halo and CoD. You've already picked up a few "sausage fests".Aptspire said:Congratulations, Brink. I shall not pick up a sausage festival
OT: Where were all these equality nuts during the 80s and 90s when nearly every game had a male protagonist, and most had a female playing the damsel in distress? Oh, right. Gaming is mainstream now.
Everyone will forget the whole "Brink has no females" thing within the next year anyway.