Stupid Tropes in Fantasy and Mythology

[beastro]

Those are the most interesting ways to use phropheices. Why do people go to such great lenghts to worry about what essentially amounts to someones' predictions?

The thing that gets me, is that to predict what's going to happen in 50, 100, 200 years in any detail, you need an awful lot of information that would be useful for all sorts of things.

I mean, to have predicted what is going on for, say, various businesses in the US now, you'd probably have to have taken the GFC into account, amongst loads of things.

Do you people even know what prophecy means?

It's foresight, seeing something from the future and stating what you saw, it's only a prediction by the modern sense of the word.

There's actually a pretty amusing (true) story where Ben Franklin argued with the COntinental Congress to arm the Continental Army with bows instead of guns, because the guns of the era weren't accurate at extreme range (and so possessed almost no real range advantage), were slow to fire, and armor had largely been phased out because of the power of firearms... so volleys of arrows would actually have torn the Redcoats to pieces. A broadheaded arrow from a longbow actually has almost the same kinetic force as a .38 Special.

He was shouted down because that would have been "uncivilized" and "barbaric" and not a righteous way to make war.

Care to sight where you read this? It sounds as far form the truth and silly as my grandmother saying that they used motorgun boats to attack battleships and go beneath their ability to depress their guns.

It made some sense of put off the use of firearms in 16th Century England, but by the 18th they completely outclassed other weapons and for one very big reason: They made large holes for people to bleed out of, something bolts and arrows are very bad at doing unless they hit critical areas and even then bullets are far more effective.

 

[Johnny Impact]

I'm curious, what is Pax Arcana? Is it a series, or a game created by a group of people?

Pax Arcana was the name I came up with for the campaign. It was run in Pathfinder http://paizo.com/prd/.

 

[DSP_Zulu]

There's actually a pretty amusing (true) story where Ben Franklin argued with the COntinental Congress to arm the Continental Army with bows instead of guns, because the guns of the era weren't accurate at extreme range (and so possessed almost no real range advantage), were slow to fire, and armor had largely been phased out because of the power of firearms... so volleys of arrows would actually have torn the Redcoats to pieces. A broadheaded arrow from a longbow actually has almost the same kinetic force as a .38 Special.

He was shouted down because that would have been "uncivilized" and "barbaric" and not a righteous way to make war.

Care to sight where you read this? It sounds as far form the truth and silly as my grandmother saying that they used motorgun boats to attack battleships and go beneath their ability to depress their guns.

It made some sense of put off the use of firearms in 16th Century England, but by the 18th they completely outclassed other weapons and for one very big reason: They made large holes for people to bleed out of, something bolts and arrows are very bad at doing unless they hit critical areas and even then bullets are far more effective.

Killing people isn't about how big of a hole it makes (though, by and large, that helps) it's about kinetic transfer and hydrostatic shock/tissue damage. There's a reason people still hunt with bows - they kill things just fine. A hunting broadhead (which is not actually what was used against people as it wasn't damaging enough) can put a 3" hole in a deer's ribcage no problem, and causes MORE hydrostatic shock than most handguns (with big, lumbering, heavy slow rounds like the .45ACP and .38 special being some notable exceptions). If you catch someone in the chest with a broadhead, theyll bleed out in minutes, if not quicker.

A bodkin (military) style arrow delivered from an English Longbow in volley will come out of your back with a hole the size of a silver dollar, and the tissue damage they cause is IMMENSE; they have little barbs (usually 3-5) that spiral through you when you get hit, shredding tissue. A crossbow bolt from a contemporary crossbow of the longbow that is hand-cranked with a cranequin could easily put a hole the size of your FIST through a plate breastplate, the person wearing it, and out the back. (I actually have a modern reproduction of such a crossbow, and two of my friends have period-accurate longbows that they crafted themselves - re-enactment is a hobby). I've put a 4" hole in 1/4" steel plate with the crossbow (at about 30ft) though you couldn't have done that in the past - the quarrel would have shattered. I was using a modern carbon fiber quarrel. (Cranked, it pulls almost 375lbs; if your arm were to get caught in the cabling, it could tear it off completely).

It's something of a myth that "gunz were betterz"; it was widely ASSUMED guns were better. Yes, the old .68 caliber balls actually pack a significantly bigger wallop than most modern rounds, and were almost certainly more damaging then the average arrow (and probably right on par with an arbalest (a cranked crossbow)) - but the real reason they were the "go to" weapon was purely training. It was a LOT easier to train someone to use a musket than it was to train someone to accurately fire a longbow, and they had a MUCH greater rate of fire than crossbows (and greater range; crossbow quarrels tend to have pretty anemic range compared to arrows or bullets).

Basically, guns phased in to deal with increasingly heavier personal armor - bows simply couldn't defeat late-era plate armor, which was often so thick and so well forged (with oblique angles deflecting a large amount of the force from an arrow before it even had a chance to penetrate) that arrows would simply glance off. Guns, as they got more advanced, packed more than enough power to punch through any amount of steel a man could feasibly wear (so could arbalests of the day, but they were hard to manufacture and slow to fire with bad range) - so they replaced bows. Since the armor was now nearly worthless, armor was gradually phased out (heavy breastplates remained for a century or so because there was still a CHANCE if the bullet caught an angle it would glance off) until it was gone completely.

By this time, guns had been "the" weapon for more than 150 years - they had, after all 'proven' they were better than bows or crossbows - but the irony is that the rise of guns, causing the dissapearance of armor - actually made bows a viable weapon again, because literally no one was wearing armor. Unfortunately, since "common wisdom" had "proven" that bows were inferior to guns, no one took them seriously and wouldnt consider using them.

So, yes, guns, particularly those old muzzle loaders, did "more" damage than arrows. But its rather like comparing getting shot by a .30 caliber machinegun and a 7.62mm. The machinegun is certainly a "better" round in terms of damage done, but the 7.62 is still MORE than adequate to kill you deader than a doornail. So yeah, a .68 caliber musket ball might have been "more" damaging than a war-arrow, but both would kill you dead, no problem at all.

Given the inherent inacuracy of musket fire at the time ("accurate" out to about ~200 yards) vs the accurate range of a longbow (150-200 yards), and taking into account the MASSIVE increase in rate of fire... if the Americans HAD used longbows, they probably could have taken on forces 3-4x their size and won, handily.

For an analog, i'd point you to the Zulu conflict that the Brits faced.... every time the Brits tried to engage the Zulu's out in the open, they got their asses kicked up between their ears by "primitives" armed with spears and short bows. It was only in defensive battles that the Brits held their own and finally managed to win (because their defenses offered them protection against bowfire and spears that they simply didn't have in the open battlefield).

Forgot:

This is the first link i came to, has links to other articles on the topic, im sure i could find a more definitive source if i wanted but this should point you in the right direction:

http://americanrevolutionblog.blogspot.com/2010/05/bows-and-arrows-in-american-revolution.html

 

[DSP_Zulu]

Here's a better one:

http://americanfounding.blogspot.com/2010/05/guns-and-bows-and-arrows-what-if.html

Trope i hate the most:

The good guy only wins because the bad guy is stupid/makes an idiot mistake, not because the good guy is actually skilled enough to win. Dont know if the trope has a name, but it is my big pet peeve with, say, James Bond movies of the middle era (not the original Connery movies and less so the Craig movies, but almost everything in between). A lot of authors do it too... im looking at you, Jim Butcher.

 

[JagermanXcell]

I guess just the magical mcguffin trope. Specifically mcguffin's constantly named "THE PHILOSOPHER'S STONE".

Slayers uses it, Full Metal Alchemist uses it, Harry Potter uses it, WoW uses it, a ton of others pieces of fiction name their mcguffin THE F***ING PHILOSOPHER'S STONE. Can someone please A. Patten that name so no one can name their mcguffin after something made to turn metal into gold and silver, and B. Explain who this philosopher is who keeps manufacturing exposition rocks? I know it's just there to advance the plot, but your stone has some false advertising going on with the name let me tell yah.

 

[DSP_Zulu]

I guess just the magical mcguffin trope. Specifically mcguffin's constantly named "THE PHILOSOPHER'S STONE".

Slayers uses it, Full Metal Alchemist uses it, Harry Potter uses it, WoW uses it, a ton of others pieces of fiction name their mcguffin THE F***ING PHILOSOPHER'S STONE. Can someone please A. Patten that name so no one can name their mcguffin after something made to turn metal into gold and silver, and B. Explain who this philosopher is who keeps manufacturing exposition rocks? I know it's just there to advance the plot, but your stone has some false advertising going on with the name let me tell yah.

its primarily because its a real life myth (The Philosopher's stone) and all of those fantasy worlds feature Alchemy as a core component, which is what the Philo Stone is all about.

 

[Veylon]

As for elves, yes, they do tend to be awfully boring on their own. There are interesting things to do with them, particularly the wilder part of their origin. Perhaps taking a few notes from the Celts would work? Wild, unpredictable forest dwellers, as opposed to really pretty people singing songs.

A good chunk of why Elves are boring is that the author forgot to give them something to do. They don't want, let alone need anything, nobody's hassling them, and they've got little or no internal struggles or even disagreements. Problems are what make characters interesting and the Elves are generally written without them.

If there was a civil war spilling over their borders into human territory or if their forest was drying out due to someone diverting a river or if they were tearing up shit in dwarf land over invading miners or something they'd be more interesting.

 

[DSP_Zulu]

As for elves, yes, they do tend to be awfully boring on their own. There are interesting things to do with them, particularly the wilder part of their origin. Perhaps taking a few notes from the Celts would work? Wild, unpredictable forest dwellers, as opposed to really pretty people singing songs.

A good chunk of why Elves are boring is that the author forgot to give them something to do. They don't want, let alone need anything, nobody's hassling them, and they've got little or no internal struggles or even disagreements. Problems are what make characters interesting and the Elves are generally written without them.

If there was a civil war spilling over their borders into human territory or if their forest was drying out due to someone diverting a river or if they were tearing up shit in dwarf land over invading miners or something they'd be more interesting.

See: Elves in the setting of The Witcher. Nonhumans in that setting are interesting as all get out. (Read the novels - by the time period of the games, the Nonhumans have already lost the war with the humans, which is why they seem a lot more bland)

 

[Ten Foot Bunny]

If real life was a fantasy RPG, then many of the people who could possibly save the world are currently sitting in prison or on death row. Yes, I think that beginning is getting pretty old.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

indeed. And while there were some advanced ironworking required to make proper iron barrels, the point becomes a bit moot when you realize that bronze, while more expensive per unit, makes a much better barrel with metalworking skills that would be ancient by the time they were called on to make gun and cannon barrels. Admittedly, copper is a precious metal, and tin has to be traded for if you're in Europe, but still.

I get that historical accuracy isn't always the goal with a fantasy setting, by definition. But this particular exclusion is a bit too prevalent.

I think this is something a lot of people just dont think about, and it is something that bothers me.... but there is (something) of a counter to this argument as well:

sometimes, you have to advance significantly beyond a certain point of technology before other principles and applications of said technology become apparent.

For instance, keeping the gun analogy:

There is no reason that a gunsmith in the 1700s couldn't have made a repeating rifle or revolver. The metalurgical technology at the time was more than sufficient to produce the steel required, and the lathe and other machining tools had become... available, if not common. But it wasn't until MANY years later (almost two centuries) that it became obvious to people that they could do that.

Even a lot of our totally-modern guns are actually decidedly low tech, it just took us learning about other peripheral things (how the gas works from the firing of the bullet, how to mill certain types of gears) that we could put it all together in one package. A gunsmith from the civil war could, given the plans, make an M-4. The technology isn't that advanced at all. But it took us about another century to put all the applications of the available technology together to create the thing, even though it was *possible* as far back as the 1800s.

Ignoring the fact that fulminates (used in shock sensitive primers required for repeating weapons) hadn't been discovered yet, the sheer cost in both man-hours and resources, the lack of smokeless powder (to reduce fouling and jams), the fragility of a repeating weapons mechanism, and the general lack of knowledge needed to produce a repeating weapon in the 1700's they totally could make one because the metallurgy was there.

I think you've been reading too much Harry Turtledove.

 

[Vegosiux]

I hate prophecies. I hate contrived coincidences. I hate any sort of "chosen ones", unless the chooser is present and there's a good reason for why the one is chosen. I also hate plot armor and any villain archetype that isn't pragmatic.

 

[newfoundsky]

The worst trope I can think of is that humans are selfish and greedy and power hungry.

But not the human protagonist, and a sub plot will involve him proving this to his other raced party.

Any human leader will fit this description to a tea, unless he is the leader of the group.

My main issue with this is that people are literally, scientifically, not greedy and evil by nature. It's like everyone had the same bad role model growing up.

 

[Callate]

These days, most of the "chosen one" fantasies. Yes, I know- it plays into the reader's own fantasies that they might be special, they just haven't had their moment to shine when it will be revealed how important they are to the greater story. But it kind of sucks for anyone who, y'know, actually works to become a powerful sorcerer or a mighty warrior or whatever. I'm not saying all of these stories have to go away; I quite enjoy some of them. I just don't think they should take up half the YA fiction section.

On the opposite side, bumbling apprentices. How about some apprentices who are actually diligent, thoughtful, and useful? Hell, how about starting with characters who are actually competent (but not omnipotent to the point that all other characters become superfluous and danger and conflict become laughable notions)?

If real life was a fantasy RPG, then many of the people who could possibly save the world are currently sitting in prison or on death row. Yes, I think that beginning is getting pretty old.

Ah, Bethesda.

"My liege, we're faced with a crisis that may be the downfall of the kingdom and the death of countless thousands of your subjects. But I have a can't-miss plan that will bring our salvation. Empty the prisons!"

 

[beastro]

So yeah, this daddy-issues/militant-atheism B.S. that hollywood keeps churning out for lazy action movies that use that basic plot as an excuse to fight all kinds of greek monsters... it just gets tiring after a while.

Tied into that is the tiresome undermining of classic stories, like Zemeckis' Beowulf.

 

[Thaluikhain]

How almost every setting is a rehash of medieval Europe with kings, knights, lords, monolithic religions with priests fond of fancy hats, all that jazz. Jade Empire is really the only fantasy game I can think of where it's not in 11th century England. Warcraft, Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, DnD (in most games), Warhammer, Dragon Age, The Witcher, it gets really dull after awhile. Give me Ming Dynasty China or Pre-Colonial Africa, something new and unexplored please.

Er...Warhammer isn't 11th century England, it's in the Holy Roman Empire.

I have something of a dislike for the "Fantasy Gun Control" trope. That is, guns, gunpowder and cannons of any ilk are banned from all fantasy settings (some exceptions, but it's pretty much default) for being too high-tech, even in settings that have technology that came much later than early guns. Guns and "knights in shining armor" existed side by side for at least 200 years until full-plate armor became obsolete. The term "bullet proof" came about from armorsmiths shooting the amrors they made, so they could use the dent to prove that the armor would stop a bullet.

Argh, yes...especially urban fantasy set in the modern ish world.

I liked the Amber series, it was a plot point that in Amber, gunpowder won't ignite. Only, the guy finds something that will function much the same that is inert here.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Someone already nailed it, but I love the "You're our only hope to save the entire world from destruction!! What's that? You want me to give you a free potion? What do I look like, a charity? You pay like everyone else!"

Games that have resurrection spells and potions, but just sort of treat it non-chalantly. Can you seriously imagine the ramifications of having a society where everyone could easily be returned from the dead? The same thing could be said for health potions that magically return people from the brink of death to full health.

Ludicrously powerful swords, artifacts, etc. that are sitting in an ancient crypt somewhere. Don't you think that Monarchs, with access to thousands of professional Soldiers, would just go and take these, instead of leaving them there for a party of 6-7 people to go plunder them?

 

[Queen Michael]

I'm not sure if this has been made into a trope yet, but I call it the "Charge of failure". When two guys are fighting with melee weapons. You know who the loser is going to be if you see one of them raise his weapon over his head, go "Yeeeeeaaaaaargh!" and charge headlong into the enemy (unless the other guy is screaming in terror). When a main character is fighting a bunch of minions, you can expect them all to initiate the charge of failure and then be instantly cut down or tossed in the air. If the hero is facing the main antagonist early in the story, you can expect him to repeatedly do the charge of failure until he's too broken to fight anymore.
In Moviebob's video on the first Ninja Turtles movie, I saw each and every turtle do the Charge of Failure on Shredder, and then Splinter defeated Shredder because Shredder did a Charge of Failure on him.

I think I made my point.

You should really make a YKTTW about this.

Me, I really don't like the entire prophecy thing. If the prophecy foretells that evil shall arise and the Chosen One will stop it, well, then let's all just lie back and play some 3DS, because it's already been prophesied that we'll be saved. So if we just lie around trying to beat the latest Phoenix Wright game, then that is clearly part of destiny and not a problem, even though there's tons of evil that must be stopped hanging around. And if "destiny" doesn't have to come true, then maybe the evil won't rise to begin with? So why worry?

 

[Atmos Duality]

Lingering Romanticism in myth is what annoys me more than anything.
"Power of love/heart/unity" etc.
Which I admit is more of an apocryphal addition to existing myth than anything.

 

[BroJing]

Swords.

Specifically, everyone having swords.

Here's the problem with it: as has already been pointed out the majority of modern fantasy takes it's cues from Tolkien. The thing is, Tolkiens setting isn't the high-medieval world most people imagine it to be but instead is much more focussed in a Dark-Age setting. Seriously, reread the battle scenes and you see alot more about shield-walls and byrnies of mail then you do knights in shining armour.

Now, in a Dark-Age (or even most Medieval periods) setting making a sword that doesn't snap the minute you hit something with it is really extremely hard! Not to mention that the amount of metal, work time and effort that goes into it would be beyond most people, even beyond many Smiths.

You know what are super easy to make and use very cheap materials? Axes, spears, clubs, knives. In fact, spears should be the most common weapon in any fantasy setting because you can use them to hunt your dinner with when you're done stabbing an orc.

Live in a wooded area? You should probably have an axe too!

All a sword does is kill people and no random peasant or minor lord is going to waste money on something that useless, only a King or Great Lord would have a retinue of men around him who literally exist to kill things and so get swords.