Super straight on tiktok

TheMysteriousGX

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Your self-determination has to not come at the expense of mine. That's the fundamental part. If through my self-determination you end up somehow in a bad way without me trying to cause such an effect, that's just the luck of the draw basically. There's no faulty principles here. Just try to make the best of what life gave you. If you try to upend the system then the people who are better off will try to maintain it and they have more resources than you so if anything you'll end up worse than where you started while they consolidate even more power.
"I'm going to swing my arms like this and if you get hit it's your own fault. Also, if you try and fix things for the better and things get worse, it's your own fault"
Yeah that's what I was talking about with regards to religion and demagogues. A lot of these dumb laws trace back to religious thought or demagogy. That's your opponent, not people who want to enjoy politically incorrect entertainment unmolested.
We weren't talking about you until you wandered in to say that people should just accept whatever level of oppression the people with power want to exert over them without rocking the boat.
Sorry for inconveniencing you by, I dunno, publicly stating that a kind of discrimination that doesn't affect you is bad
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Your self-determination has to not come at the expense of mine. That's the fundamental part. If through my self-determination you end up somehow in a bad way without me trying to cause such an effect, that's just the luck of the draw basically.
"My self-determination can hurt you, but your self-determination cannot be allowed to hurt mine"
 

Agema

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If you try to upend the system then the people who are better off will try to maintain it and they have more resources than you so if anything you'll end up worse than where you started while they consolidate even more power.
Exactly. So if the straight majority want to oppress gay people, gay people better just knuckle down and accept it for their own good. This is the rationale of the Myanmar military: if they just kill and brutalise enough of their citizens, their citizens should eventually just learn to shut the fuck up and do what they are told.

This is the context in which you breezily make assertions like "Your self-determination has to not come at the expense of mine." So, a person's desire to be gay should not interfere with someone else's desire to have a gay-free society. It's actually a philosophy of might makes right, dressed up in liberal platitudes, with a side order of "I got mine, fuck you."

And that's why you are not a liberal.
 
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Dreiko

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Exactly. So if the straight majority want to oppress gay people, gay people better just knuckle down and accept it for their own good. This is the rationale of the Myanmar military: if they just kill and brutalise enough of their citizens, their citizens should eventually just learn to shut the fuck up and do what they are told.

This is the context in which you breezily make assertions like "Your self-determination has to not come at the expense of mine." So, a person's desire to be gay should not interfere with someone else's desire to have a gay-free society. It's actually a philosophy of might makes right, dressed up in liberal platitudes, with a side order of "I got mine, fuck you."

And that's why you are not a liberal.
I don't think most people actually have it as their life goal things such as "living in a gay-free society" or "oppressing gay people" though, maybe some religious fundamentalist country people do but that's about it. I think they just have things they enjoy which as a side-effect can be argued (not definitively) have some negative impacts in that area, but nothing that comes close to causing it directly or single-handedly or anything of that caliber. Most people just don't really care and want to be left alone to enjoy their lives.


The principle of not having your self-determination come at the expense of other people is there because you don't want other people's self-determination to come at the expense of yours. What Myanmar is doing is just going to produce an endless cycle of violence, which they are engaging in because they couldn't go with their people's self-determination to vote em out of power.


The difference here is whether you're directly shooting people who are protesting your junta, or whether you're watching a tv show that makes jokes about something someone else feels offended by and by not minding as much you make that person feel like an outsider from society or something like that. In one case you're actively trying to harm someone, in the other you're just enjoying the joke in blissful ignorance and have no designs for the poor offended person. But at the same time just because that person's got it rough it doesn't mean you shouldn't have been enjoying this joke.

I don't think asking people to be put out to this degree where they have to limit their life out of empathy for other people's limitations is rational if they're not in any way directly doing anything to those people.
 
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BrawlMan

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While sneaking socialism and communism in there (y'know, "far left" 'n' all): Gender abolition, redefinition of terminology (more genders, more orientations, rape and consent), gender studies to be taken seriously and applied, normalization of trans-children as well as any non-normative sexuality that people normally get criticism for if it's made a show of -- especially to kids because hey it's "inclusive education" that they just don't know to ask for. This year I bet it'll be a push against the trendy new(-ish) perceived enemy: TERFs.

Note that I don't see these people as any sort of a threat to anything. The social media circles this shit comes from is far from the mainstream. However, they probably will try to co-opt Pride which will have to turn them away or admit it's just helping any far left progressive to get their message heard.
 

Dreiko

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"I'm going to swing my arms like this and if you get hit it's your own fault. Also, if you try and fix things for the better and things get worse, it's your own fault"

It's more like "I'm in my house doing jumping jacks in peace, you break in through the window and run at me and I haven't even noticed you so I keep moving my hands up and down and you end up getting smacked by accident, and then the issue is that I was moving violently and smacked you and not that you shouldn't have even been in my house in the first place and that it is none of your business what I do in my own private domain, even if it ends up smacking you through some contrivance".


Some things are not your business to meddle in people's lives over. Things such as entertainment and humor and so on.
 
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BrawlMan

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It not the same thing. These super straight lads are not killing anyone and they arent hurting anything more than feelings maybe and that's kind of a big maybe.
That's where you are wrong. Why go through all the trouble to prove their super straightness? There is define fear and hatred of all things gay, lesbian, or trans. Those YouTubers or people in power (who vilify non-white races, LGQBT, women) want guys like that, because they are easy to manipulate and control. And I betcha many of those assholes would join with that evil and hateful part of YT just to prove their further white-straightness. Out of idiotic, selfish, petty, and evil attempt to be the Ultimate Alpha/Sigma douche-bag. That is something you should not downplay or make light of. This a "boys will be boys" people trying to excuse assholes of doing.
 

Silvanus

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Straight people were also forced into shame during that same time for perfectly normal heterosexual activity. What do you think puritanism is if not shaming people for being heterosexually sexual?
Good lord, if you think that's remotely comparable, I don't know what to tell you. Straight people were at least able to form relationships in some fashion, for which they would not be murdered. They could still have partners, and be open about it with their parents. They could still pass on their belongings to their spouse after they passed away.

Puritanism is a set of highly-restrictive moral values, which acted to shame people for sexual openness in a variety of ways. But whereas a straight person might have been shamed or berated for being sexually active, a gay person would have been killed in the street. And you say this was "during the same time"? Fucking no; puritan attitudes towards heterosexual sex held sway for a tiny fraction of the time that societal homophobia did (and still does).

Once you start understanding it's not straight people as a group forcing people to live in shame but rather religious and political leaders who wish to control you, you will stop seeing random straight people as the enemy and will finally focus on the actual people with power.
I don't see "random straight people" as the enemy.

Denial that there's a problem, though? Equivocation as if random online comments about straight people are the equivalent of decades of abuse of gay people? Yeah, those are part of the problem. People who endlessly minimise or dismiss the scale of the issue certainly aren't helpful.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Good lord, if you think that's remotely comparable, I don't know what to tell you. Straight people were at least able to form relationships in some fashion, for which they would not be murdered.
Well, you could make the argument that interacial couples, for example, were at risk. Somehow I don't think that's what Dreiko is talking about, for some reason, but I just can't put my finger on why.
 

Silvanus

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Well, you could make the argument that interacial couples, for example, were at risk. Somehow I don't think that's what Dreiko is talking about, for some reason, but I just can't put my finger on why.
Sure, that they were. Though not for the heterosexuality of it.
 

CriticalGaming

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Well, you could make the argument that interacial couples, for example, were at risk. Somehow I don't think that's what Dreiko is talking about, for some reason, but I just can't put my finger on why.
Throughout history there has been stigma about who you love. Whether it be someone of a different religion, race, country, or even wealth.

To say that there hasnt been persecution on straight orientations is not true. But we live in a day an age where the more you can make people feel sorry for you and you alone the better.

What bothers me is when people bring up historical events as if the people today have to somehow retroactively be punished or guilted into shame because of something they had no part of.

Not every white family comes from a family that owned slaves in fact many people actually were slaves themselves if you go back far enough in the geneology. But anything that happened before Jesus doesnt count for some reason.

Not every straight person has abused a lbgt person in anyway. Not every straight person hates lbgt or even considers the thought.

And yet white cis people are supposed to go through "be less white training" at Coke. Teachers in school are guilting kids about being a bunch of white devil spawn.

It is getting out of hand a bit dont ya think. But for some reason this era in our history loves to feed of hate, racism, and being offended. It gets media attention, it gets companies to issue bullshit statements, it gets people fired, and all of that gives the outraged "victims" a feeling of power. And you know what they say "absolute power corrupts, absolutely."

People have used this newfound power to lie, cheat, and steal, for attention, for clicks, for fame, for money, or just to fuck up someones life just because they could.
 
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tstorm823

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Which is fine by the way. Be proud.
Don't be proud. Pride is bad. Be self-confident. Be happy. Be unapologetic to those who resent you. Don't be proud. Pride is the thing that says "I'm more important than other people", and nobody is.
 

McElroy

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Rape and consent are not getting "redefined" at Pride. New orientations or genders are not getting invented or conjured out of the ether. What's happening is that valid concepts that get next-to-no airtime for the rest of the year get a little more exposure.
I already said that it's not there now. Utterly invalid bullshit festers in the fringes of social media all the damn time (for instance super straight is a new sexual orientation that by all means shouldn't take off). Airing that with the help of a non-marginal event like Pride brings it down for me. The rest, regular Pride stuff that they have in their slogans and mottos, is fine. I'll gladly just ignore it. There's a difference between dismissal and simply not caring.

It is not "far-left" to talk about stuff that isn't heteronormative or strictly within the gender binary. It's fine. And kids finding out this stuff exists-- or learning about gender dysphoria-- is a lot more healthy than the "old" approach of denial, shame & closeting.
I don't want people's fetishes and paraphilias out on the street, if that makes me an insecure heterosexual then so be it. It's also clear that you shouldn't spit on public displays of affection based on the outlook of those doing it. These two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Kids find these things exist and see them as deviations from normal (cis-heteronormativity). I'm cool with that; don't fix what ain't broken. There should be support for those that find themselves not fitting in, but the first remedy the nutcases will peddle is a promise of an "authentic" self that our norms are keeping down. The last part is what I dismiss, but since it seems to draw a crowd I admit the first part is not realized well enough in many cases.

Note that I observe the effects this stuff has on my surroundings (i.e. Finland). For example I've studied modern sex ed we have here and it's easy to see that it's pointless to have much beyond straight stuff, and I don't mean the restrictive version of straight sexuality discussed earlier in this thread. To 14-year-olds sex is what they picture their parents having.
 

Agema

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Don't be proud. Pride is bad. Be self-confident. Be happy. Be unapologetic to those who resent you. Don't be proud. Pride is the thing that says "I'm more important than other people", and nobody is.
Pride, like many things, is both useful and appropriate in moderation and damaging in excess.

One's satisfaction from doing a good job, for instance, will manifest as pride. A person should reasonably be proud of their achievements: it provides motivation to succeed and excel, and gives a person positive self-esteem. We should apply it internally and honestly, as a reflection on our own accomplishment, for the satisfaction that we have done well.

Pride is a vice when it is misapplied. Pride to assume unearned greatness - to take credit for what one has not truly attained, or to diminish or neglect one's own failings and errors. In many cases, the error with pride is really where it is applied: it is often applied externally, as a means to assume superiority or as a judgement upon others. Or through improper association: for person to be proud through identification with something, and assume the perceived virtues of that things reflect on oneself, despite neither possessing the virtues of nor contributing to the achievements of that associated something.
 
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BrawlMan

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Throughout history there has been stigma about who you love. Whether it be someone of a different religion, race, country, or even wealth.

To say that there hasnt been persecution on straight orientations is not true. But we live in a day an age where the more you can make people feel sorry for you and you alone the better.

What bothers me is when people bring up historical events as if the people today have to somehow retroactively be punished or guilted into shame because of something they had no part of.

Not every white family comes from a family that owned slaves in fact many people actually were slaves themselves if you go back far enough in the geneology. But anything that happened before Jesus doesnt count for some reason.

Not every straight person has abused a lbgt person in anyway. Not every straight person hates lbgt or even considers the thought.

And yet white cis people are supposed to go through "be less white training" at Coke. Teachers in school are guilting kids about being a bunch of white devil spawn.

It is getting out of hand a bit dont ya think. But for some reason this era in our history loves to feed of hate, racism, and being offended. It gets media attention, it gets companies to issue bullshit statements, it gets people fired, and all of that gives the outraged "victims" a feeling of power. And you know what they say "absolute power corrupts, absolutely."

People have used this newfound power to lie, cheat, and steal, for attention, for clicks, for fame, for money, or just to fuck up someones life just because they could.
I don't want people to feel like demons for being white. That's not my main issue. And I don't agree with those methods either, bu that still doesn't change the fact that you have people of different race, color gender, religion, or for being trans being abused and hurt and killed. Suit, evil that are black or different color that are trans get it even worse than the white people that are trans.


[ unfurl="true"]https://transequality.org/blog/murd...sses-total-for-last-year-in-just-seven-months[/URL]
 

tstorm823

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Pride, like many things, is both useful and appropriate in moderation and damaging in excess.

One's satisfaction from doing a good job, for instance, will manifest as pride. A person should reasonably be proud of their achievements: it provides motivation to succeed and excel, and gives a person positive self-esteem. We should apply it internally and honestly, as a reflection on our own accomplishment, for the satisfaction that we have done well.

Pride is a vice when it is misapplied. Pride to assume unearned greatness - to take credit for what one has not truly attained, or to diminish or neglect one's own failings and errors. In many cases, the error with pride is really where it is applied: it is often applied externally, as a means to assume superiority or as a judgement upon others. Or through improper association: for person to be proud through identification with something, and assume the perceived virtues of that things reflect on oneself, despite neither possessing the virtues of nor contributing to the achievements of that associated something.
Pride to assume earned greatness is still not good. Even if one earns their success, it does not become correct to think "yes, I deserve this" when successful. Humility is a virtue. Gratitude for what other people have done to allow for your success is a virtue. Pride distracts from virtue.

And none of that even applies in the case of pride in ones identity. There's no upside there.
 

CriticalGaming

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I don't want people to feel like demons for being white. That's not my main issue. And I don't agree with those methods either, bu that still doesn't change the fact that you have people of different race, color gender, religion, or for being trans being abused and hurt and killed. Suit, evil that are black or different color that are trans get it even worse than the white people that are trans.


[ unfurl="true"]https://transequality.org/blog/murd...sses-total-for-last-year-in-just-seven-months[/URL]
Well that sucks. Though two things pop out to me about that article. Of the 28 trans deaths listed in the reports, not all of them are confirmed murders. It doesn't give specifics, but it does say "Murdered or suspected murder" which like means the authorities couldn't tell if the deaths were suicide or murder for at least some of those.

While 28 people sucks, it is hard to say that trans people are under any extra level of violence than anyone else. The problem is that murders happen all around the country for any number of reasons, gang activity, robbery, muggings gone wrong. The question is are these people targeted because they are trans or did they get hit and just happened to be trans? Especially since those incidents are so spread out over the US....though the 6 in puetro rico are highly sus.

In 2019 there were 13927 murders in the US https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/ and if you just look at the numbers you could say a lot of things. Blacks have the highest homicide rate, but those numbers don't tell you the level of black on black crime especially due to the status of Chicago.

I guess my point is, cherry picking data can pain whatever narrative you want, and that's the problem. Are specific groups of people targeted for violence? Yeah sometimes, sure. But that alone doesn't indicate an epidemic of any one issue. So I think you just have to be careful when people say they are targeted because at some point everyone or every type of person is targeted by someone who might do harm, that idea alone doesn't particularly mean anything.
 

BrawlMan

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Yeah sometimes, sure. But that alone doesn't indicate an epidemic of any one issue. So I think you just have to be careful when people say they are targeted because at some point everyone or every type of person is targeted by someone who might do harm, that idea alone doesn't particularly mean anything.
There is no "sometimes". It's called a lot. So you're just being oblivious about it. Not the first time you've done that. And even if it was sometimes, it doesn't make it right nor acceptable.