Super straight on tiktok

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,805
3,955
118
Pride to assume earned greatness is still not good. Even if one earns their success, it does not become correct to think "yes, I deserve this" when successful. Humility is a virtue. Gratitude for what other people have done to allow for your success is a virtue. Pride distracts from virtue.
I would argue that expectation of reward is a slightly different matter.

Part of this is tending into concepts of internal and external sense of validation rather than pride per se. I think internal validation more important to one's sense of self-esteem than external (although I'll own up to quite liking external validation too).

As I read someone somewhere say, if wealth were dependent on hard work, every African woman would be a millionaire. Pride in having amassed money is therefore often not really the accomplishment one might think, contingent as it is on so much else. Money is in a sense out of one's control: a factor of society, economy, etc. Different tasks of equal accomplishment may have radically different rewards attached. Thus amassed wealth can be a very misleading measure of achievement.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 26, 2020
6,170
1,842
118
Country
United Kingdom
I don't want people's fetishes and paraphilias out on the street, if that makes me an insecure heterosexual then so be it.
You didn't talk about "fetishes and paraphilias", though-- if that's what you meant by "non-normative sexuality", that was very unclear. I took it to be talking about homosexuality, bisexuality, etc.


Kids find these things exist and see them as deviations from normal (cis-heteronormativity). I'm cool with that; don't fix what ain't broken. There should be support for those that find themselves not fitting in, but the first remedy the nutcases will peddle is a promise of an "authentic" self that our norms are keeping down. The last part is what I dismiss, but since it seems to draw a crowd I admit the first part is not realized well enough in many cases.
Promising that kids who aren't cis-heteronormative can live an "authentic" life is something "nutcases" peddle? Fuck that. I'm living a perfectly authentic life, and it's fucking insulting to say that people shouldn't have told me I could as a kid.

Note that I observe the effects this stuff has on my surroundings (i.e. Finland). For example I've studied modern sex ed we have here and it's easy to see that it's pointless to have much beyond straight stuff, and I don't mean the restrictive version of straight sexuality discussed earlier in this thread. To 14-year-olds sex is what they picture their parents having.
That's what they picture because that's all they see. The purpose of education is not just to reinforce ideas kids already have. It's to... educate.

A gay kid is just as deserving to learn about safe sex, consent, & relationships as a straight kid. The educational establishment doesn't just have a responsibility towards the majority. It's supposed to have a responsibility to all the kids.
 

McElroy

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
4,186
202
68
Finland
You didn't talk about "fetishes and paraphilias", though-- if that's what you meant by "non-normative sexuality", that was very unclear. I took it to be talking about homosexuality, bisexuality, etc.
I said any non-normative sexuality that people normally get criticism for if it's made a show of . I should have clarified that I didn't mean "normal" stuff just with a same-sex partner.
Promising that kids who aren't cis-heteronormative can live an "authentic" life is something "nutcases" peddle? Fuck that. I'm living a perfectly authentic life, and it's fucking insulting to say that people shouldn't have told me I could as a kid.
Authenticity in this regard is a foolish idea. It can't be measured in any way shape or form. It's a promise of a snake oil salesman. No such thing can be seen in a person's life, cis or trans, gay or straight. The feeling of not fitting in is of course real, but manipulating teens at the height of their brain plasticity is always bad. Now then the difference between manipulation and guidance is debatable and political, but it's not anywhere near the mentally and physically broken messes of far left Twitter, and that's being charitable and expecting only pain without malice. (Like, we know the sentiments on the far right are malicious.)
That's what they picture because that's all they see. The purpose of education is not just to reinforce ideas kids already have. It's to... educate.

A gay kid is just as deserving to learn about safe sex, consent, & relationships as a straight kid. The educational establishment doesn't just have a responsibility towards the majority. It's supposed to have a responsibility to all the kids.
Because we nowadays have little sexual morality, consensual sex can be summed up as "anything goes as long as both are into it". The pointlessness comes from heteronormativity reinforcing itself (usually everyone in the classroom is the result of a hetero-relationship). If "anything goes" just ends up repeating heteronormativity, then it is how things ought to be. Non-straight people are supposed to be normal people like everybody else. I admit that there probably is a point of disagreement hiding here, because if I were to be the professor I'd introduce intimate relationships foremost as families into which children are born and then expand from there, whereas how they nowadays say: two people form a relationship and it can be M/M, F/F, and F/M. But it warms my hetero-heart to know that kids interpret that as gay porn, porn, and real relationship.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 26, 2020
6,170
1,842
118
Country
United Kingdom
Authenticity in this regard is a foolish idea. It can't be measured in any way shape or form. It's a promise of a snake oil salesman. No such thing can be seen in a person's life, cis or trans, gay or straight. The feeling of not fitting in is of course real, but manipulating teens at the height of their brain plasticity is always bad. Now then the difference between manipulation and guidance is debatable and political, but it's not anywhere near the mentally and physically broken messes of far left Twitter, and that's being charitable and expecting only pain without malice. (Like, we know the sentiments on the far right are malicious.)
If you want to make a philosophical point about the legitimacy of "authenticity", go right ahead, but we're just talking about pretty simple stuff most people take for granted: no decade-long self-denial, no hiding your partner, no lying about who you're seeing. No feeling of shame or repression as you hide from your parents. No getting disowned or threatened if you do.

That's what most people mean when they're talking about authenticity in that context. It's a life that the vast majority of straight people are able to live in modern western society. And if you're gonna argue against people encouraging gay kids to be more open in pursuit of that, then I find that more than a little bit grotesque.

Because we nowadays have little sexual morality, consensual sex can be summed up as "anything goes as long as both are into it". The pointlessness comes from heteronormativity reinforcing itself (usually everyone in the classroom is the result of a hetero-relationship). If "anything goes" just ends up repeating heteronormativity, then it is how things ought to be.
At its core, it seems that you're arguing that since kids are born as a result of heterosexual sex, therefore heterosexuality is the only kind of relationship worth teaching them about.

It should be patently obvious why that's utter nonsense. Firstly, not all people are straight, whether they're born to straight parents or not. Secondly, there's absolutely no reason that education should solely reflect what the kids already see at home. Why should it? Its purpose is to educate them on the world, and their own future lives, not just to tell them what their parents were up to.

Non-straight people are supposed to be normal people like everybody else. I admit that there probably is a point of disagreement hiding here, because if I were to be the professor I'd introduce intimate relationships foremost as families into which children are born and then expand from there, whereas how they nowadays say: two people form a relationship and it can be M/M, F/F, and F/M. But it warms my hetero-heart to know that kids interpret that as gay porn, porn, and real relationship.
If you actually do "expand from there", then that's not such a big problem. But you appear to be arguing for the exclusion of anything else.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

McElroy

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
4,186
202
68
Finland
No issue with the rest.
At its core, it seems that you're arguing that since kids are born as a result of heterosexual sex, therefore heterosexuality is the only kind of relationship worth teaching them about.

It should be patently obvious why that's utter nonsense. Firstly, not all people are straight, whether they're born to straight parents or not. Secondly, there's absolutely no reason that education should solely reflect what the kids already see at home. Why should it? Its purpose is to educate them on the world, and their own future lives, not just to tell them what their parents were up to.
My point is that being all inclusive with sex education just tends to reflect the "default". The kids that end up in non-straight relationships don't know it at that point so they just go along with the crowd. Denial, closeting, coming out, expectations, are all cultural things that like to stick around. A parent's fear that their kid "might be gay" is something we'd be better off without, but on the other hand it's not realistic to have no expectations and no reaction to getting them wrong.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 26, 2020
6,170
1,842
118
Country
United Kingdom
My point is that being all inclusive with sex education just tends to reflect the "default". The kids that end up in non-straight relationships don't know it at that point so they just go along with the crowd. Denial, closeting, coming out, expectations, are all cultural things that like to stick around. A parent's fear that their kid "might be gay" is something we'd be better off without, but on the other hand it's not realistic to have no expectations and no reaction to getting them wrong.
Of course they're cultural things. Nobody is saying we "have no expectations"; that's obviously impossible, and sex ed will still teach kids about all the regular heteronormative stuff. Literally nothing would be lost. The request is that it also cover the stuff that's useful for the other 5-10% of kids.

The role of education is not to reflect or reinforce expectations kids have. It is to inform them and prepare them. Currently, it's doing that exclusively for the majority, and ignoring the rest.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

McElroy

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
4,186
202
68
Finland
Of course they're cultural things. Nobody is saying we "have no expectations"; that's obviously impossible, and sex ed will still teach kids about all the regular heteronormative stuff. Literally nothing would be lost. The request is that it also cover the stuff that's useful for the other 5-10% of kids.

The role of education is not to reflect or reinforce expectations kids have. It is to inform them and prepare them. Currently, it's doing that exclusively for the majority, and ignoring the rest.
How many times I must tell you that it already does (in my limited experience, but it was clear that's what I've been talking about the whole time)? Anything goes. They aren't that damn different anyway -- if you think there has to be separate gay and straight sex ed instead of all inclusive then we disagree.
 

Schadrach

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 25, 2020
1,576
147
68
Country
US
Blacks have the highest homicide rate, but those numbers don't tell you the level of black on black crime especially due to the status of Chicago.
Unsurprising, if you go looking there are stats that suggest most homicides have killer and victim as the same race, and about half of US homicide is perpetrated by a black person.
 

Mister Mumbler

Pronounced "Throat-wobbler Mangrove"
Legacy
Jun 17, 2020
1,333
1,043
118
The Grave
Country
United States
This thread is like an onion: it just has so many layers. I wonder what topic this thread will hit next.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kae

xmbts

Still Approved by Shock
Legacy
Aug 10, 2020
20,796
32
23
Country
United States
The way a super straight person I was talking to described it was "Maybe some people don't want to be called awful things because of their preference."

What an incredible thought.
 

Avnger

Trash Goblin
Legacy
Apr 10, 2020
1,651
748
118
Country
United States
The way a super straight person I was talking to described it was "Maybe some people don't want to be called awful things because of their preference."

What an incredible thought.
People aren't called awful things for their "preference" anymore than people are called awful things for their preference of redheads vs blonds. People are called awful things for their bigotry...

And it really does show their true colors that they're so much more worried about being "called awful things (ie: a bigot)" than the actual bigotry.
 

xmbts

Still Approved by Shock
Legacy
Aug 10, 2020
20,796
32
23
Country
United States
People aren't called awful things for their "preference" anymore than people are called awful things for their preference of redheads vs blonds. People are called awful things for their bigotry...

And it really does show their true colors that they're so much more worried about being "called awful things (ie: a bigot)" than the actual bigotry.
I'm willing to believe some people hopped on the bandwagon with no ill intentions. But they should probably read the writing on the wall that they oops'd their way into a bumbling hate group.

Just the logic of a straight person being judged for being straight, and complaining about the lack of acceptance to me in particular is worthy of a chef kiss.

Which isn't to say I endorse mean things being said about this person, it's just a bit...audacious.
 

Dreiko

Elite Member
Legacy
May 1, 2020
1,681
478
88
CT
Country
usa
Gender
male, pronouns: your majesty/my lord/daddy
People aren't called awful things for their "preference" anymore than people are called awful things for their preference of redheads vs blonds. People are called awful things for their bigotry...

And it really does show their true colors that they're so much more worried about being "called awful things (ie: a bigot)" than the actual bigotry.
Seeing as this isn't about not calling people out for bigotry, but for preference (including not redefining preference as bigotry), what is the objection to this?
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
4,010
1,685
118
Country
United States
Seeing as this isn't about not calling people out for bigotry, but for preference (including not redefining preference as bigotry), what is the objection to this?
The reframing a preference as a sexuality and the transphobic idea that somebody who's interested in a trans person of the opposite sex is Less Straight because a trans person isn't a Real <Gender>
Plus the TERFs jumping in bed with the 4chan nazis at a time when almost 100 anti-trans bills are getting proposed and voted on in the states so far this year alone

Nobody cares if you have a preference unless that preference is like, kids or something. Just don't be a fucking weirdo about it
 
  • Like
Reactions: Avnger

Dreiko

Elite Member
Legacy
May 1, 2020
1,681
478
88
CT
Country
usa
Gender
male, pronouns: your majesty/my lord/daddy
The reframing a preference as a sexuality and the transphobic idea that somebody who's interested in a trans person of the opposite sex is Less Straight because a trans person isn't a Real <Gender>
Plus the TERFs jumping in bed with the 4chan nazis at a time when almost 100 anti-trans bills are getting proposed and voted on in the states so far this year alone

Nobody cares if you have a preference unless that preference is like, kids or something. Just don't be a fucking weirdo about it

Again, the trans thing goes both ways. If you have a female who identifies as a male but still looks completely female and feminine, that's a trans person that someone who identifies as super straight would be fine dating, so it's not something aimed at particularly trans people in general, it's only aimed at the dudes in particular.

And I don't think people were being weird about it but they were getting called transphobic despite that so now you have the clapback.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
4,010
1,685
118
Country
United States
Again, the trans thing goes both ways. If you have a female who identifies as a male but still looks completely female and feminine, that's a trans person that someone who identifies as super straight would be fine dating, so it's not something aimed at particularly trans people in general, it's only aimed at the dudes in particular.

And I don't think people were being weird about it but they were getting called transphobic despite that so now you have the clapback.
I realize that this is still hard for you, but if a dude is dating a trans dude they aren't any kind of straight no matter how many feminine qualifiers you add to the trans dude in your pure fantasy strawman example.

This shit is *why* you rightly get called transphobic. You're actively and deliberately misgendering your own strawman example. "I'm still super duper straight because you aren't a really a man" is the textbook fucking example.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Avnger and Buyetyen

McElroy

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
4,186
202
68
Finland
I realize that this is still hard for you, but if a dude is dating a trans dude they aren't any kind of straight no matter how many feminine qualifiers you add to the trans dude in your pure fantasy strawman example.
There is a rare (these odd cases are always very rare) chance that this doesn't apply: transition (of any kind) while in a relationship. Sometimes it does happen. When it does it highlights how artificial it is to check boxes. Also you and Dreiko aren't describing the same thing. Dreiko's hypothetical is weird, but really, who is to say? Especially nowadays when there are people coming out as non-binary.
 

Dreiko

Elite Member
Legacy
May 1, 2020
1,681
478
88
CT
Country
usa
Gender
male, pronouns: your majesty/my lord/daddy
I realize that this is still hard for you, but if a dude is dating a trans dude they aren't any kind of straight no matter how many feminine qualifiers you add to the trans dude in your pure fantasy strawman example.

This shit is *why* you rightly get called transphobic. You're actively and deliberately misgendering your own strawman example. "I'm still super duper straight because you aren't a really a man" is the textbook fucking example.
Actually this isn't a strawman but rather a real life example of how I was introduced to this whole trans thing back like 9 years ago by a very close friend, and the girl in question was both trans and bi and her boyfriend was straight and didn't identify as bi or gay, to me she looked totally like a girl, and she wasn't one of those weirdos who demand that you lie to yourself about how you perceive them, she just wanted people to use her new name (I didn't even know it was a new name so to me her real name was her new name) and didn't want to be excluded from things for being a girl like lewd jokes and other "untoward" stuff like locker-room talk basically. I just frankly told her "I'm simple, I see boobs, I think girl" and she was totally fine with that. That's what a normal person is like, which is why I don't take seriously all the crazy online people who give normal trans people who go on minding their business a bad rep.