Super straight on tiktok

Revnak

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Normal is when you are like me, the guy who gets his gender roles from hentai.

Edit: I wanna make this clear before there are any misunderstandings, I believe there is nothing wrong with hentai. My repeated efforts to bring the light of hentai to the Iranian people demonstrates that.
 
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Silvanus

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Actually this isn't a strawman but rather a real life example of how I was introduced to this whole trans thing back like 9 years ago by a very close friend, and the girl in question was both trans and bi and her boyfriend was straight and didn't identify as bi or gay, to me she looked totally like a girl, and she wasn't one of those weirdos who demand that you lie to yourself about how you perceive them, she just wanted people to use her new name (I didn't even know it was a new name so to me her real name was her new name) and didn't want to be excluded from things for being a girl like lewd jokes and other "untoward" stuff like locker-room talk basically. I just frankly told her "I'm simple, I see boobs, I think girl" and she was totally fine with that. That's what a normal person is like, which is why I don't take seriously all the crazy online people who give normal trans people who go on minding their business a bad rep.
So, to clarify: this friend identifies as male, you continue to refer to him as "her" and "she", and he's fine with it because you have a close relationship? Am I understanding all this right?

Would you do the same thing if it was a cis person and you'd just mistaken the physical sex? Say I'm biologically male, identify as male, but (due to androgynous appearance & clothes etc) you mistake me for a woman. Would you then refuse to change your pronouns etc after releasing I wasn't a woman?
 
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Terminal Blue

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So, here's what I've learned from your anecdote.

You have someone whom you, at one point, considered a close friend. Despite this, and despite knowing that they consider themselves to be male, you won't refer to them as such or even acknowledge any degree of complexity in their identity. You would consider that too demanding for even a close friend to expect of you. To you, the most important thing about this person is how the appearance of their body makes you feel, and you see nothing wrong with actually telling them that. You take some perverse pride in the fact that your worldview is "simple", even though it's too simple to actually include people you claim to have regard for. Worse, you consider all this to be "normal".

And you're not wrong. That is certainly a very normal way for straight men to interact with the world and others in it. It makes you truly, truly repulsive though.
 

Dreiko

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So, to clarify: this friend identifies as male, you continue to refer to him as "her" and "she", and he's fine with it because you have a close relationship? Am I understanding all this right?

Would you do the same thing if it was a cis person and you'd just mistaken the physical sex? Say I'm biologically male, identify as male, but (due to androgynous appearance & clothes etc) you mistake me for a woman. Would you then refuse to change your pronouns etc after releasing I wasn't a woman?

Well, I never went back to calling her by her real name once I realized it wasn't the one I was introduced to her with after hanging out with her family and realizing everyone was using a different name, I thought her younger siblings were playing a practical joke but when her mom did it too I just asked her lol (I thought she had some other roommate I never met cause there was another name on the dorm plate for a good couple months XD), and I didn't even know she was trans until like half a year of being friends so by that point I had been treating her like a girl the same as everyone else we interacted with, so I don't think it's the same sort of situation since I assume if some dude was girly looking and I called him a she by accident he'd correct me on the spot as opposed to letting me know half a year later lol.


So, here's what I've learned from your anecdote.

You have someone whom you, at one point, considered a close friend. Despite this, and despite knowing that they consider themselves to be male, you won't refer to them as such or even acknowledge any degree of complexity in their identity. You would consider that too demanding for even a close friend to expect of you. To you, the most important thing about this person is how the appearance of their body makes you feel, and you see nothing wrong with actually telling them that. You take some perverse pride in the fact that your worldview is "simple", even though it's too simple to actually include people you claim to have regard for. Worse, you consider all this to be "normal".

And you're not wrong. That is certainly a very normal way for straight men to interact with the world and others in it. It makes you truly, truly repulsive though.

Hey man if she's ok with it I don't think you have the right to define it as unilaterally repulsive. She literally just mentioned her being trans in passing during a car-ride between talking about things like Blazblue and what have you. Totally wasn't making a big deal about it. It's like how I mention I don't like artichokes. By that point we were too close of friends to even care about such impersonal labels. I think that's what's normal, to just get to know people and not worry about this label BS that some people online put too much of themselves on.


Normal is when you are like me, the guy who gets his gender roles from hentai.

Edit: I wanna make this clear before there are any misunderstandings, I believe there is nothing wrong with hentai. My repeated efforts to bring the light of hentai to the Iranian people demonstrates that.
Oh so it is your fault that Iran is now demanding anime chars be drawn with headscarves. How could you.
 

Dreiko

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bluegate

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Buyetyen

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I think that's what's normal, to just get to know people and not worry about this label BS that some people online put too much of themselves on.
You and I as cishet dudes have the luxury to not give a shit. Not everyone else does.
 
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Cheetodust

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It's weird how easy it was to get people to refer to Vincent Furbier as Alice and David Evans as The Edge (that's not even a name) but respecting the identity of a trans person is too much to ask. If you're consistent and refuse to call anyone in the world by anything but their given name then you're weird but I guess I have to admit that you're just a stickler for birth certs. But if you'll call anyone by their chose name bar trans people then yeah you're probably transphobic.
 

Schadrach

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And why do you think that is?
Given the thread, is this where I get to answer "black culture" and have that answer strongly defended?

I mean, presuming you accept some strong media effects arguments in other cases it would actually not be unreasonable to argue that media and other social messaging targeted at black folks, especially young black men functionally brainwash them into violence. But that's assuming you accept the same kinds of arguments that people like Karen Dill-Shackleford or others that based their ideas off her work back.

I realize that this is still hard for you, but if a dude is dating a trans dude they aren't any kind of straight no matter how many feminine qualifiers you add to the trans dude in your pure fantasy strawman example.
If a dude dated Eliot Page before he came out, does that make him gay (or at least bi) retroactively? I find the whole notion that one's sexual preference or orientation is tied to something in someone else's brain that they may or may not have expressed to be kind of silly.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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If a dude dated Eliot Page before he came out, does that make him gay (or at least bi) retroactively? I find the whole notion that one's sexual preference or orientation is tied to something in someone else's brain that they may or may not have expressed to be kind of silly.
Neat, but in that specific example, Elliot Page and his lesbian girlfriend *did*, in fact, split up after Elliot came out as a dude.
 
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Schadrach

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Neat, but in that specific example, Elliot Page and his lesbian girlfriend *did*, in fact, split up after Elliot came out as a dude.
Does coming out matter? Page's girlfriend was at least for a time in a relationship with someone who identified as a man, thus clearly she's not a lesbian, right? She was dating "a female who identifies as a man but still looks completely female and feminine", which would be the sort of thing Dreiko was referring to.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Does coming out matter? Page's girlfriend was at least for a time in a relationship with someone who identified as a man, thus clearly she's not a lesbian, right? She was dating "a female who identifies as a man but still looks completely female and feminine", which would be the sort of thing Dreiko was referring to.
It was a lesbian relationship until it wasn't, that's how chronology works.
Y'all are trying to Objectively Quantify people and it just doesn't work that way. Some things you just gotta roll with. Humans are complicated and messy
 

Trunkage

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Does coming out matter? Page's girlfriend was at least for a time in a relationship with someone who identified as a man, thus clearly she's not a lesbian, right? She was dating "a female who identifies as a man but still looks completely female and feminine", which would be the sort of thing Dreiko was referring to.
Maybe we should just stops labeling things if people are getting worked up like this
 
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Terminal Blue

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Does coming out matter? Page's girlfriend was at least for a time in a relationship with someone who identified as a man, thus clearly she's not a lesbian, right? She was dating "a female who identifies as a man but still looks completely female and feminine", which would be the sort of thing Dreiko was referring to.
This probably feels like a big "owned with facts and logic" moment, but it's symptomatic of someone who has never had to give serious thought to the complexities of human sexuality. In other words, to anyone who isn't heterosexual it just comes off as pretty ignorant.

Emma Portner (who was Elliot Page's wife, by the way, not his girlfriend) is a lesbian because she has done the hard work of figuring out that she is a lesbian. It actually has very little to do with what she does or who she has relationships with, and far more to do with how she feels about herself and her relationships, as well as how she exists socially within a society where lesbians are a category of people, both of which we obviously we don't know. Her sexuality, as an individual, is also allowed to be complicated, because all human sexuality is complicated and its only heterosexuals who refuse to acknowledge that it is.

Transmen can absolutely look feminine, and straight men can find them attractive. This state is usually temporary and transitional (oh wow, it's almost like words mean something), but even in a hypothetical fantasy case where it was not, a straight man who found themselves dating a transman would, at some point, be forced to acknowledge their partner's inner life in order for the relationship to work.

What I think GX has rather underestimated is the sheer and complete lack of regard most straight men actually have for anyone else, especially the people they date.
 

Dreiko

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This probably feels like a big "owned with facts and logic" moment, but it's symptomatic of someone who has never had to give serious thought to the complexities of human sexuality. In other words, to anyone who isn't heterosexual it just comes off as pretty ignorant.

Emma Portner (who was Elliot Page's wife, by the way, not his girlfriend) is a lesbian because she has done the hard work of figuring out that she is a lesbian. It actually has very little to do with what she does or who she has relationships with, and far more to do with how she feels about herself and her relationships, as well as how she exists socially within a society where lesbians are a category of people, both of which we obviously we don't know. Her sexuality, as an individual, is also allowed to be complicated, because all human sexuality is complicated and its only heterosexuals who refuse to acknowledge that it is.

Transmen can absolutely look feminine, and straight men can find them attractive. This state is usually temporary and transitional (oh wow, it's almost like words mean something), but even in a hypothetical fantasy case where it was not, a straight man who found themselves dating a transman would, at some point, be forced to acknowledge their partner's inner life in order for the relationship to work.

What I think GX has rather underestimated is the sheer and complete lack of regard most straight men actually have for anyone else, especially the people they date.
I think you're muddying the waters here. Nobody cares about what you have to do for a relationship to "work", that's not the issue. This is about whether that person being trans means they always were the other gender to begin with, even before realizing it, making the person attracted to them someone attracted to that gender by definition.

What you are is what you are, whether you realize it or not is irrelevant. So if we are to say that they "are" this gender they identify with (and not merely "feel like they are") then this necessitates that the people attracted to them are people attracted to that gender (which would make his lesbian wife at least bi by this logic).


But because it is clear that if someone's totally feminine and don't yet even think they're trans themselves and you're attracted to them, that has nothing to do with being attracted to guys, you run into the issue where you are in this liminal space between genders and the important thing becomes what you feel like you are and not what you actually are.


See, thing is, people acknowledge you for what you are, not what you feel like you are, it is filtered through their perception so the prism can sometimes be muddied with different gender roles based on differing cultures but when you have people from the same culture doing this then it's much less hard to figure out.



But... but if I can't use easy labels to categorize people off-handedly, then I might have to start thinking! That hurts my brain-meats!
Yeah this is what I was saying above with the story about that friend of mine and how it didn't matter what labels she went by because by then we were past them as friends. But apparently that's just cause I'm straight or something lol.


(see, it's only ever ok for labels to not matter if you...go along with the labels a certain segment wants you to, and it is always up to you to act like they don't matter, if it is them that have to go with yours and act that they don't mater alongside you sometimes...well we just can't have that, even if it's among friends who are actually totally fine with it being that way)
 
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