Super straight on tiktok

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 26, 2020
6,244
1,884
118
Country
United Kingdom
See, thing is, people acknowledge you for what you are, not what you feel like you are, it is filtered through their perception so the prism can sometimes be muddied with different gender roles based on differing cultures but when you have people from the same culture doing this then it's much less hard to figure out.
You (the general 'you') will acknowledge that first, yes, because it's a default setting. But if you (still the general 'you') aren't self-centred, then you'll acknowledge that the person you're speaking to knows their own identity better than you do. And the reasonable course of action is then to change if/when you get corrected, and your perception was off.

This is no better than those people who deny bisexuals exist. Their "perception" of me is that I'm just gay or straight and in denial. Is it reasonable of them to just run with this perception and insist it's accurate? Do I not know my own goddamn mind?

Yeah this is what I was saying above with the story about that friend of mine and how it didn't matter what labels she went by because by then we were past them as friends. But apparently that's just cause I'm straight or something lol.
I'd say it probably has more to do with this friend of yours personally not caring very much. It doesn't mean very much beyond that one person; you can't extrapolate from it that all trans people shouldn't care if you misgender them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
4,396
2,192
118
Country
United States
What you are is what you are, whether you realize it or not is irrelevant. So if we are to say that they "are" this gender they identify with (and not merely "feel like they are") then this necessitates that the people attracted to them are people attracted to that gender (which would make his lesbian wife at least bi by this logic).


But because it is clear that if someone's totally feminine and don't yet even think they're trans themselves and you're attracted to them, that has nothing to do with being attracted to guys, you run into the issue where you are in this liminal space between genders and the important thing becomes what you feel like you are and not what you actually are.


See, thing is, people acknowledge you for what you are, not what you feel like you are, it is filtered through their perception so the prism can sometimes be muddied with different gender roles based on differing cultures but when you have people from the same culture doing this then it's much less hard to figure out.
And of this were *actually* the case, Elliot Page would still probably be married to his former lesbian wife. But they aren't, because she *isn't* bi. This is actually the crux as to why this Super Straight shit is garbage: the idea that trans men aren't men and trans women aren't women is transphobia 101 and the rest is just window dressing. It's shit like this that makes me think that cis people should seriously question their gender more often. Not because their gender will change, but because unquestioned perspectives lead to Horse Teeth Logic

Your friend tolerating you being an ass sometimes when his family would not even use his correct name is not the be all and end all of trans relationships.
 

Dreiko

Elite Member
Legacy
May 1, 2020
1,800
574
118
CT
Country
usa
Gender
male, pronouns: your majesty/my lord/daddy
You (the general 'you') will acknowledge that first, yes, because it's a default setting. But if you (still the general 'you') aren't self-centred, then you'll acknowledge that the person you're speaking to knows their own identity better than you do. And the reasonable course of action is then to change if/when you get corrected, and your perception was off.

This is no better than those people who deny bisexuals exist. Their "perception" of me is that I'm just gay or straight and in denial. Is it reasonable of them to just run with this perception and insist it's accurate? Do I not know my own goddamn mind?
I mean, there has to be a limit though somewhere right? You don't just believe any crazy old thing some random person states to be factual just to be polite do you? If your neighbor starts saying that in their past life they were a dragon from space, is it incumbent upon you to be unquestioning about the factual nature of such a claim? And are you an asshole for being skeptical?

I think that's just totally irrational. Most people when told of something unusual will have questions and doubts and raise concerns as a matter of course. It takes someone who is incredibly incurious and indifferent to the world around them to just nod along.

And of this were *actually* the case, Elliot Page would still probably be married to his former lesbian wife. But they aren't, because she *isn't* bi. This is actually the crux as to why this Super Straight shit is garbage: the idea that trans men aren't men and trans women aren't women is transphobia 101 and the rest is just window dressing. It's shit like this that makes me think that cis people should seriously question their gender more often. Not because their gender will change, but because unquestioned perspectives lead to Horse Teeth Logic

Your friend tolerating you being an ass sometimes when his family would not even use his correct name is not the be all and end all of trans relationships.
I dunno man, marrying a guy as a woman who claims to be a lesbian is pretty bi. Getting divorces from guys is not a show of being a lesbian. Half of married straight women also do this.

For your claim to make sense Ellen would have to not have been a guy at some point during which the lesbinan was into that, and then become one causing her to stop being into him. She'd have to have been a woman at first, and then become a man. Not always have been a man, just in a wrong body, and then transitioning that body to match his mind, which is what happened here.



And I wasn't being an ass though. I was being normal. It wasn't a "thing". Even the name thing wasn't a big issue, she was just being considerate to her younger siblings and letting em call her what they were used to, I just used the new name cause that's what I was introduced to her as so it imprinted and it'd feel weird to use a different name all of a sudden like half a year later...much like how it'd feel different to ignore the boobs and start saying "he" all of a sudden. Nobody treated her as a dude and she didn't ask to be treated as a dude, she just didn't want to be treated as a girl in particular. That's the stuff that bothered her, things like being overly polite or minding crude language and guy-talk, she wanted to be part of that sort of thing. It just so happens I treat everyone the same anyways so we clicked because of that and mainly through shared interests. I legit don't care what you are and treat everyone the same so it works out with people who don't wanna be singled out.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 26, 2020
6,244
1,884
118
Country
United Kingdom
I mean, there has to be a limit though somewhere right? You don't just believe any crazy old thing some random person states to be factual just to be polite do you? If your neighbor starts saying that in their past life they were a dragon from space, is it incumbent upon you to be unquestioning about the factual nature of such a claim? And are you an asshole for being skeptical?

I think that's just totally irrational. Most people when told of something unusual will have questions and doubts and raise concerns as a matter of course. It takes someone who is incredibly incurious and indifferent to the world around them to just nod along.
Yes, but this obviously isn't the same. It's a documented phenomenon with a wealth of research behind it.

It's the same as denying that someone's bisexual because you personally find it hard to believe. The same arrogance-- believing you know someone else's identity better than they know themselves-- is involved.

By-the-by, nobody has any issue with "having questions". Having questions is fine. Ignoring the answers from someone with more knowledge than you of the matter in question is the problem.
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
2,191
1,439
118
Country
USA
I mean, there has to be a limit though somewhere right? You don't just believe any crazy old thing some random person states to be factual just to be polite do you? If your neighbor starts saying that in their past life they were a dragon from space, is it incumbent upon you to be unquestioning about the factual nature of such a claim? And are you an asshole for being skeptical?

I think that's just totally irrational. Most people when told of something unusual will have questions and doubts and raise concerns as a matter of course. It takes someone who is incredibly incurious and indifferent to the world around them to just nod along.
Argumentum ad absurdum.
 

Dreiko

Elite Member
Legacy
May 1, 2020
1,800
574
118
CT
Country
usa
Gender
male, pronouns: your majesty/my lord/daddy
Yes, but this obviously isn't the same. It's a documented phenomenon with a wealth of research behind it.

It's the same as denying that someone's bisexual because you personally find it hard to believe. The same arrogance-- believing you know someone else's identity better than they know themselves-- is involved.

By-the-by, nobody has any issue with "having questions". Having questions is fine. Ignoring the answers from someone with more knowledge than you of the matter in question is the problem.
I think that in the identity spectrum it's an etymologically based disagreement more than anything. These things mean different things to different people and so they are more than anything just upholding their own definitions of those things as opposed to submitting to those of others in order to be polite. It's less knowing someone else's identity and more just knowing what goes into those identities definitionally and not allowing the parameters to be altered unilaterally with no debate or argumentation.


If you don't think that thinking you were a space dragon in a previous life is on the same level of incredulity irrespective of the research then you just have been in a bubble. There's hundreds of millions who believe in reincarnation first of all, which is not that far off, you can literally turn into a cockroach or something in your next life based on that. And since we're discussing interpersonal politeness and not scientific fact-based treatment here what ends up mattering is what people believe about something.


And I don't think having followup questions is the same as ignoring the answers. If something doesn't sound right you still have to question it more.


But yeah to be less abstract, I don't think you can know what it is to be something you're not, certainly not to the point you identify with it so strongly, it's like claiming your favorite food is something you've never had before but you saw an iron chef make on tv, so either trans people were always whatever they wish to be, with whatever ramifications for the gayness of their partners that that entails, or they're just some other third type of category of thing that's neither what they were born as nor what they identify as. And I don't think it's any sort of phobic to follow this line of thought down its logical conclusion.


As for the Bi thing you keep bringing up, I honestly never really thought much of it. I guess if you like butt it's the same whether it's male or female? Something like that is about as much as I considered it lol. Either way I find it odd to hear people think it's not even a thing. Is it like gay people being threatened by your liking girls too or something?
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
4,396
2,192
118
Country
United States
I dunno man, marrying a guy as a woman who claims to be a lesbian is pretty bi. Getting divorces from guys is not a show of being a lesbian. Half of married straight women also do this.

For your claim to make sense Ellen would have to not have been a guy at some point during which the lesbinan was into that, and then become one causing her to stop being into him. She'd have to have been a woman at first, and then become a man. Not always have been a man, just in a wrong body, and then transitioning that body to match his mind, which is what happened here.
...yes, Dreiko, for my claim to make sense, I'd've had to actually listen to the words that came out of Elliot Page's and Emma Portner's mouths and not assume I knew better than them.

I see now why you're having such an issue with that.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Buyetyen

Revnak

We must imagine Sisyphus horny
Legacy
May 25, 2020
2,944
3,097
118
Country
USA
I don’t think it is a good idea to have internet internet on internet internet and internet internet on internet internet and internet internet on internet internet and internet internet
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 26, 2020
6,244
1,884
118
Country
United Kingdom
I think that in the identity spectrum it's an etymologically based disagreement more than anything. These things mean different things to different people and so they are more than anything just upholding their own definitions of those things as opposed to submitting to those of others in order to be polite. It's less knowing someone else's identity and more just knowing what goes into those identities definitionally and not allowing the parameters to be altered unilaterally with no debate or argumentation.
If your definition is just "I think you look like X, therefore you must be X, and I won't listen to you if you say otherwise", then it's not a definition worthy of respect. It's just prescriptive arrogance.

If you don't think that thinking you were a space dragon in a previous life is on the same level of incredulity irrespective of the research then you just have been in a bubble. There's hundreds of millions who believe in reincarnation first of all, which is not that far off, you can literally turn into a cockroach or something in your next life based on that. And since we're discussing interpersonal politeness and not scientific fact-based treatment here what ends up mattering is what people believe about something.
OK, but first of all, most people who aren't self-centred or monumentally rude wouldn't make it their business to constantly contradict or denigrate somebody else's spiritual/ religious beliefs.

Secondly, there is no evidence for reincarnation. There is a wealth of scientific research and published data attesting to gender dyphoria. You're drawing a false analogy.

But yeah to be less abstract, I don't think you can know what it is to be something you're not, certainly not to the point you identify with it so strongly, it's like claiming your favorite food is something you've never had before but you saw an iron chef make on tv, so either trans people were always whatever they wish to be, with whatever ramifications for the gayness of their partners that that entails, or they're just some other third type of category of thing that's neither what they were born as nor what they identify as. And I don't think it's any sort of phobic to follow this line of thought down its logical conclusion.
"Something you're not". Your argument relies on itself already being right and accepted; it's cyclical. Obviously I don't think they are "knowing what it is to be something they're not". I think they're knowing what it is to be something they are.

As for the Bi thing you keep bringing up, I honestly never really thought much of it. I guess if you like butt it's the same whether it's male or female? Something like that is about as much as I considered it lol. Either way I find it odd to hear people think it's not even a thing. Is it like gay people being threatened by your liking girls too or something?
I've had more shitty attitude from straight people personally, denying I'm bi and opining that it must be just because I failed to get a girl at school when I was younger. But biphobia is also widespread in the LGBT+ community; lots of people think bi people are just gay people who're still halfway in denial.

That denial that I know what I am is rationally equivalent to what you're doing.
 
Last edited:

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
10,930
3,640
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
If your definition is just "I think you look like X, therefore you must be X, and I won't listen to you if you say otherwise", then it's not a definition worthy of respect. It's just prescriptive arrogance.



OK, but first of all, most people who aren't self-centred or monumentally rude wouldn't make it their business to constantly contradict or denigrate somebody else's spiritual/ religious beliefs.

Secondly, there is no evidence for reincarnation. There is a wealth of scientific research and published data attesting to gender dyphoria. You're drawing a false analogy.



"Something you're not". Your argument relies on itself already being right and accepted; it's cyclical. Obviously I don't think they are "knowing what it is to be something they're not". I think they're knowing what it is to be something they are.



I've had more shitty attitude from straight people personally, denying I'm bi and opining that it must be just because I failed to get a girl at school when I was younger. But biphobia is also widespread in the LGBT+ community; lots of people think bi people are just gay people who're still halfway in denial.

That denial that I know what I am is rationally equivalent to what you're doing.
I like you and highly respect you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Silvanus

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
7,059
4,251
118
Secondly, there is no evidence for reincarnation. There is a wealth of scientific research and published data attesting to gender dyphoria. You're drawing a false analogy.
True, but remember that it's never "real" research to people who don't want to agree with it.
 

Schadrach

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 25, 2020
1,628
199
68
Country
US
If your neighbor starts saying that in their past life they were a dragon from space, is it incumbent upon you to be unquestioning about the factual nature of such a claim? And are you an asshole for being skeptical?
I mean, Google had an employee that claimed to be a person, a dragon and also a large ornate building and that belief was considered important and worth respecting, so where exactly the lines need be drawn before one is allowed to be skeptical without being an asshole are...interesting. There's also that Twitch employee that identifies as a trans woman and also a male deer (or maybe a trans deer? She wears antlers which implies male unless she's specifically a reindeer). And yet, Rachel Dolezal is a bridge too far for identifying as black.

This probably feels like a big "owned with facts and logic" moment, but it's symptomatic of someone who has never had to give serious thought to the complexities of human sexuality. In other words, to anyone who isn't heterosexual it just comes off as pretty ignorant.
Simple question: Was Eliot Page a man before he came out? Or does the act of coming out make Eliot a man? If the former, then in what way is it not accurate to say his partners were involved with a man (and does that make any former lady partners he had retroactively bi because they were attracted to a man?) If the latter then why is it inappropriate to say the Matrix was made by the Wachowski brothers (as that is how they identified when they made it)?

Is Eliot Page a man stealing a role that should belong to a woman by having taken the role of Vanya in Umbrella Academy? Or was he a woman taking a woman's role, and that still counts because it's his role regardless of how he identifies? Would you have felt the same way if it was a cis man managing to take the role or Vanya to begin with, or would that have been a man exercising his privilege to steal a role that should rightly belong to a woman.

A better one, is gender identity an immutable attribute of a person, a set of behaviors they choose to engage in or not at will, or a label they call themselves for whatever period of time? Because it seems like the answer is whatever is convenient in the moment.
 

Gethsemani

Hardcore Feminazi
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
1,201
1,006
118
Country
Sweden
A better one, is gender identity an immutable attribute of a person, a set of behaviors they choose to engage in or not at will, or a label they call themselves for whatever period of time?
Welcome to the complexity that Terminal Blue loves to talk about. Seriously, the question "What is gender identity?" is incredibly complex and it merits serious thought. More serious then trying simple gottchas about Elliot Page, furries at Twitch and the other flippant faff in your post, at the very least.
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
2,191
1,439
118
Country
USA
Because it seems like the answer is whatever is convenient in the moment.
You could try finding some trans or gender non-conforming individuals and ask them what they think. The expectation of course being that you would actually listen instead of snark at them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,712
610
118
Country
USA
"What is gender identity?" is incredibly complex and it merits serious thought.
If it's a social construct, it's really not complex at all.

Edit: which is not to say it does or does not merit serious thought.
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
10,930
3,640
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
If it's a social construct, it's really not complex at all.

Edit: which is not to say it does or does not merit serious thought.
Who the fuck are you trying to fool? Because it certainly ain't most of us. The only one you're fooling and deceiving is yourself and those that don't want to face reality.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,712
610
118
Country
USA
Yeah, for sure, just like money, ethics, religion, the legitimacy of authority, and so on. Not complex at all.
a) I didn't say all social constructs are simple.
b) I didn't say gender identity would be simple, I said the question "what is gender identity" is simple, if it's a social construct. Like, you suggest money is complex, and economics is a complex topic, but the question "what is money" certainly isn't, money is unit of agreed upon value that's exchanged for goods or service. If we take the social construction view of gender identity, it is the presentation of characteristics socially associated with one, both, or neither sex. That's not a complex answer. The answer gets dramatically more complex if you take the perspective that there's an intrinsic natural force behind gender identity, because natural forces are much more difficult to define than human constructs.