Superman and the problems the character faces

XJ-0461

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Superman. Some say he's so powerful he's boring, and that he has no interesting villains. In fact, a lot of people say that. Hell, I used to be one of them. And I think a lot of this hate for Supes comes from the films.

Now I'm not belittling the films, and I'm certainly not belittling Christopher Reeve's portrayal of the character, even though I've only seen the first film from the seventies. I think the late, great Mr. Reeves is the best part of the first Superman film, and I am in awe of his ability to show Clark and Superman to be two different people. No, what I'm criticising the Superman films for is the villains. Not the treatment of the villains, though I could make whole rants about how Lex Luthor got fucked over in the first film alone, but the villains used.

Look at the villains in each of the Superman films released since 1978:
Superman - Lex Luthor
Superman 2 - Zod, Ursa, Non and Lex Luthor
Superman 3 - Gus Gorman
Superman 4 - Lex Luthor and Nuclear man
Superman Returns - Lex Luthor

Thanks to this, as well as most other adaptations of Superman, people think of Lex Luthor as Superman's only enemy, not his archenemy.

Compare this with Batman. While most people will say the Joker if you ask them to name a Batman villain, odds are that you'll get someone who'll say something like the Penguin, the Riddler, Two-Face etc. whereas I imagine most non-comic book fans would be hard presed to name a Superman villain other than Lex Luthor, a character who, while immensely intelligent, is only as strong as an ordinary man. And much like Aquaman, people can't resist making simplified statements like "Superman's main villain isn't as physically strong as him, so Superman must have more power than all of his enemies."

Yet anyone who has seen Superman The Animated Series from 1996, Justice League, or Justice League Unlimited knows that Superman has a number of enemies equally as powerful as him, if not more powerful. Brainiac, Bizarro, Doomsday, goddamn Darkseid have all proven to be a physical match for Superman at various points in various incarnations. I think a film that features these vilains as well as, if not instead of Lex Luthor, Superman would get a much wider appreciation.

Also, it's not like Kryptonite is his only weakness. Yeah, it is very much a cliché to use it as a weapon against him by this point, but the big blue boy scout has more weaknesses than just some rocks. Magic affects him in the same way that it would an ordinary human, and while this isn't usually picked up on that much, it adds another weakness and flaw that many say the character is lacking. Similarly, it's not like he's completely invulnerable. Yes, he can take way more punishment than most characters in the DC universe, but if something is phsyically strong enough it can still hurt him. Hell, Doomsday killed him with nothing but brute force.

Also, I think the intention of the character shouldn't be someone that they have to relate to, but rather he should be someone to look up to. Recently, he's been written as the epitome of all that is good about humanity. I agree with this interpretation of the character, and feel that he should be the sort of shinning beackon to humanity about how they should act. As such, you shouldn't necessarily try to relate to the character, but rathe be inspired by him. Also, some writers have pushed the angle that his life isn't perfect thanks to his powers, and that thanks to them he can hear everyone who needs help but can't always get there, and that that's what makes him a hero. While I don't completely agree with this angle, I appreciate the way it shakes things up.

Without this slightly deeper knowledge of the character's history, I think many people see him as bland and boring, and see some green rocks as his only enemies without considering the physical gods that he has fought in the past. So really, TL;DR Superman has a much more interseting character than people give him credit for, with a number of flaws and a number of villains who are more interesting than chunks of green rock, it's just that adaptations of him haven't managed to capture that.
 

ThrobbingEgo

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Metallo, Parasite, uh... Batman, sometimes. That's pretty much all he's got besides Luthor in terms of cool nemeses.

(Don't say Toyman, don't say he who can not be pronounced. They're not cool.)
 

ThrobbingEgo

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XJ-0461 said:
Yes, he can take way more punishment than most characters in the DC universe, but if something is phsyically strong enough it can still hurt him. Hell, Doomsday killed him with nothing but brute force.
After Doomsday singlehandedly slaughtered pretty much everyone in the Justice Possy, or whatever it was, IIRC.

Second place? A direct hit from a Russian nuke. Almost kills a middle-aged Superman.

Supes isn't invincible, but he's really hard to kill with just force.

Also, some writers have pushed the angle that his life isn't perfect thanks to his powers, and that thanks to them he can hear everyone who needs help but can't always get there, and that that's what makes him a hero. While I don't completely agree with this angle, I appreciate the way it shakes things up.
If you did like that angle, I'd suggest Irredeemable.
 

Woodsey

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I don't think "but he's also vulnerable to magic" really does much to alleviate the kryptonite issue.

Another problem is that Superman's too all-American-hero, or at least that's how I perceive him. Batman seems a couple of steps away from being the villain at times, and his humanity holds him back. If Rachel (?) from The Dark Knight was in a Superman film then they couldn't have killed her off simply because Superman wasn't fast enough.
 

XJ-0461

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Woodsey said:
I don't think "but he's also vulnerable to magic" really does much to alleviate the kryptonite issue.

Another problem is that Superman's too all-American-hero, or at least that's how I perceive him. Batman seems a couple of steps away from being the villain at times, and his humanity holds him back. If Rachel (?) from The Dark Knight was in a Superman film then they couldn't have killed her off simply because Superman wasn't fast enough.
Yeah, even I agree that Kryptonite is over used. It has become a cliché that Lex Luthor or whoever will pull some Kryptonite out of a box and nearly kill Superman with it. Lazy writers must use it as a "get out of jail free" card when writing the big blue.

And Superman hasn't always saved everyone. Remember the first film from 1978, where Lois died (then was resurected through time travel)? It showed that he isn't completely perfect and not all powerful.
 

WolfThomas

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There's also red-sunlight (and the simulated variety), that makes him normal if you hit him with it. As for Kryptonite, I'm of the (crazy) opinion that he's actually immune but just faking so no one comes up with a better weapon against him.

I think an important thing to remember is the drama is not whether or not Superman gets hurt/dies, it's that everyone else is in dangers. If Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen or just anybody dies because he screws up, he'll never be able to live with himself.

I think most people should All Star Superman before complaining.
 

AvsJoe

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Sorry to nitpick, but didn't Supes also take on that semi-evil version of himself in the third film?
 

The Salty Vulcan

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Ok.

I've said this once and I'll say it again. The point of Superman was never about simply beating up crooks or saving the day. It was about the responsibilities and effects having such power would have on an individual. Lets just look again at this guy. For all intents and purposes, he IS a God. A living breathing God, able to shoot fire from his eyes and fly. What does that do to a person and to those around him?

Batman fears him and for good cause, Lex Luthor believes that he could be stopping Mankind from developing further on its own terms, Brainiac belittles his efforts and his justification for them, Lois thinks his the best mankind could hope to achieve etc

To say it simply: when in the right hands, Superman can be just as compelling a Character as Batman or Spiderman. Unfortunely, Superman is rarely in the right hands. I am in no means insulting the writers that have contributed to the character and his history but well a good majority weren't suited to him. It would be like if Tim Burton were to make a Superman film (seriously I love his movies but no.)

Regarding his Rogues Gallery. Well thats a little tricky. The reason why Spiderman and Batmans villains are so popular are because they are interesting visually and in terms of their respective origins. Lets face it, how do you compete against a killer clown and a guy with four metal arms? That being said, Superman DOES have an eclectic list outside of Lex Luthor:-

*Brainiac: An unstoppable supercomputer program who saves the information of the planets he's visted and then destroys them to increase their value. Fans of the DCAU and Smallville will know just how effective a villain he can be. Visually he can be intresting too. Hell, he's a computer program. He can make himself looks like anything. A green skinned man, a robot spider etc The possibilities are endless

*Mr Mxyzptlk: A being from the fifth dimension. He cames from a world so advanced that their science is practically Magic and he can harm the man of steel. He may look like a funny little man in a purle dirby but anyone whose read "Whatever Happened to The Man of Tommorrow?" by Alan Moore will know just how dangerous a foe he could potentially be.

*General Dru-Zod: He was first made known to the public in the Superman II film and he's been the big bad in Smallville for some time now. He's an interesting character because, quite simply, he's what Superman SHOULD be. An all powerful despot. I'm really not going to go into too much detail because Terrance Stamp's performance says it all.

*Metallo: A cyborg powered by a chunk of Kryptonite. I have to say Smallville really showed what the character was about as much as I hate to admit it. A guy who one day woke up and realised he was'nt a man anymore. He's never was one of my favourite villains but he was always a challenge.

*Bizzaro: The "reverse" Superman. A failed clone with a distorted repotoire of the Man of Steel's power and with half the intelligence. Simply put he's a great character whether he's done for comedy like Superman: The Animated Series, or tragedy like Superman: Red Son.

Of course these are only a few of the great villains Superman has at his disposal.
 

FalloutJack

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You know what? Superman is his OWN worst enemy. He's flipping Superman and he STILL has problems dealing with this stuff? Totally.
 

Aurgelmir

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XJ-0461 said:
Superman. Some say he's so powerful he's boring, and that he has no interesting villains. In fact, a lot of people say that. Hell, I used to be one of them. And I think a lot of this hate for Supes comes from the films.

Now I'm not belittling the films, and I'm certainly not belittling Christopher Reeve's portrayal of the character, even though I've only seen the first film from the seventies. I think the late, great Mr. Reeves is the best part of the first Superman film, and I am in awe of his ability to show Clark and Superman to be two different people. No, what I'm criticising the Superman films for is the villains. Not the treatment of the villains, though I could make whole rants about how Lex Luthor got fucked over in the first film alone, but the villains used.

Look at the villains in each of the Superman films released since 1978:
Superman - Lex Luthor
Superman 2 - Zod, Ursa, Non and Lex Luthor
Superman 3 - Gus Gorman
Superman 4 - Lex Luthor and Nuclear man
Superman Returns - Lex Luthor

Thanks to this, as well as most other adaptations of Superman, people think of Lex Luthor as Superman's only enemy, not his archenemy.

Compare this with Batman. While most people will say the Joker if you ask them to name a Batman villain, odds are that you'll get someone who'll say something like the Penguin, the Riddler, Two-Face etc. whereas I imagine most non-comic book fans would be hard presed to name a Superman villain other than Lex Luthor, a character who, while immensely intelligent, is only as strong as an ordinary man. And much like Aquaman, people can't resist making simplified statements like "Superman's main villain isn't as physically strong as him, so Superman must have more power than all of his enemies."

Yet anyone who has seen Superman The Animated Series from 1996, Justice League, or Justice League Unlimited knows that Superman has a number of enemies equally as powerful as him, if not more powerful. Brainiac, Bizarro, Doomsday, goddamn Darkseid have all proven to be a physical match for Superman at various points in various incarnations. I think a film that features these vilains as well as, if not instead of Lex Luthor, Superman would get a much wider appreciation.

Also, it's not like Kryptonite is his only weakness. Yeah, it is very much a cliché to use it as a weapon against him by this point, but the big blue boy scout has more weaknesses than just some rocks. Magic affects him in the same way that it would an ordinary human, and while this isn't usually picked up on that much, it adds another weakness and flaw that many say the character is lacking. Similarly, it's not like he's completely invulnerable. Yes, he can take way more punishment than most characters in the DC universe, but if something is phsyically strong enough it can still hurt him. Hell, Doomsday killed him with nothing but brute force.

Also, I think the intention of the character shouldn't be someone that they have to relate to, but rather he should be someone to look up to. Recently, he's been written as the epitome of all that is good about humanity. I agree with this interpretation of the character, and feel that he should be the sort of shinning beackon to humanity about how they should act. As such, you shouldn't necessarily try to relate to the character, but rathe be inspired by him. Also, some writers have pushed the angle that his life isn't perfect thanks to his powers, and that thanks to them he can hear everyone who needs help but can't always get there, and that that's what makes him a hero. While I don't completely agree with this angle, I appreciate the way it shakes things up.

Without this slightly deeper knowledge of the character's history, I think many people see him as bland and boring, and see some green rocks as his only enemies without considering the physical gods that he has fought in the past. So really, TL;DR Superman has a much more interseting character than people give him credit for, with a number of flaws and a number of villains who are more interesting than chunks of green rock, it's just that adaptations of him haven't managed to capture that.

Personally I feel its Lex that is the boring character, not Supes.
Sure I don't read Superman, nor care much about him, but I do agree with most of what you re saying.

Superman 2 introduce Zod, but in a horrible horrible fashion.


PS: You forgot to mention Smallville, which to mu knowledge have added most of the before mentioned villains.
 

XJ-0461

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Quantum Roberts said:
To say it simply: when in the right hands, Superman can be just as compelling a Character as Batman or Spiderman. Unfortunely, Superman is rarely in the right hands. I am in no means insulting the writers that have contributed to the character and his history but well a good majority weren't suited to him. It would be like if Tim Burton were to make a Superman film (seriously I love his movies but no.)
Believe it or not, in the late ninties there were talks of Burton directing a Superman film with Nic Cage in the title role. Imagine what that would have been like.
 

The Salty Vulcan

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XJ-0461 said:
Quantum Roberts said:
To say it simply: when in the right hands, Superman can be just as compelling a Character as Batman or Spiderman. Unfortunely, Superman is rarely in the right hands. I am in no means insulting the writers that have contributed to the character and his history but well a good majority weren't suited to him. It would be like if Tim Burton were to make a Superman film (seriously I love his movies but no.)
Believe it or not, in the late ninties there were talks of Burton directing a Superman film with Nic Cage in the title role. Imagine what that would have been like.
Oh I know! Hence why I mentioned it in the first place. In fact I heven have some of Burton's original sketches of Superman and Brainiac who was et to be the major antagonist. They're interesting to say the least but its just not Superman. He does make a cool looking Brainiac though.

BlastedTheWorm said:
According to Frank Miller, Batman can beat Superman.
That was pretty awesome but the only reason Batman (ALMOST) did it, was because Superman had been weakened by a tactical nuclear device a few days before and the resulting soot was cutting off his supply to the sun. That and a Syntheic Kryptonite arrow.
 

NotSoNimble

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The only thing Superman has to fear, is a green rock.

And Batman.

Only cause Batman has a green rock.
 

NotSoNimble

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Quantum Roberts said:
NotSoNimble said:
The only thing Superman has to fear, is a green rock.

And Batman.

Only cause Batman has a green rock.
And Red Sun Radiation.

And Magic.

And other Kryptonians.
None of what you said counts, cause Batman with a green rock will have defeated him already.

LOL! Yeah, I see what you mean, but since Superman is such a weak character, he shouldn't ever even beat Lex. Even if Lex didn't have that green rock, magic, red sun radiation, or a Kryptonian in his back pocket.

Clark is a simpleton.
 

The Salty Vulcan

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NotSoNimble said:
Quantum Roberts said:
NotSoNimble said:
The only thing Superman has to fear, is a green rock.

And Batman.

Only cause Batman has a green rock.
And Red Sun Radiation.

And Magic.

And other Kryptonians.
None of what you said counts, cause Batman with a green rock will have defeated him already.

LOL! Yeah, I see what you mean, but since Superman is such a weak character, he shouldn't ever even beat Lex. Even if Lex didn't have that green rock, magic, red sun radiation, or a Kryptonian in his back pocket.

Clark is a simpleton.
Well that really depends on who is writing him. Like his powers, Clark's intelligence have never really been consistent granted he's never been a Bizarro. There has been times where Clark has been just as smart as Lex though like in Superman: Red Son. In that comic, after Lex fnally beats Superman he steals his notes and theories in order to create a new world government.

Also, as hard as it is to believe, Lex has had his moments of stupidity. Like the time he hired a detective to find out Superman's real indentity, only to fire him once he hears Clark Kent IS Superman. He couldn't believe a guy as powerful as Superman could possibly be as humble as Clark Kent. This is a guy who was able to convince the world that any bad he's ever done, was done so by an evil cone, shapeshifting alien or mirror dimension self. A guy THAT genre savvy should've known better.
 

NotSoNimble

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Quantum Roberts said:
NotSoNimble said:
Quantum Roberts said:
NotSoNimble said:
The only thing Superman has to fear, is a green rock.

And Batman.

Only cause Batman has a green rock.
And Red Sun Radiation.

And Magic.

And other Kryptonians.
None of what you said counts, cause Batman with a green rock will have defeated him already.

LOL! Yeah, I see what you mean, but since Superman is such a weak character, he shouldn't ever even beat Lex. Even if Lex didn't have that green rock, magic, red sun radiation, or a Kryptonian in his back pocket.

Clark is a simpleton.
Well that really depends on who is writing him. Like his powers, Clark's intelligence have never really been consistent granted he's never been a Bizarro. There has been times where Clark has been just as smart as Lex though like in Superman: Red Son. In that comic, after Lex fnally beats Superman he steals his notes and theories in order to create a new world government.

Also, as hard as it is to believe, Lex has had his moments of stupidity. Like the time he hired a detective to find out Superman's real indentity, only to fire him once he hears Clark Kent IS Superman. He couldn't believe a guy as powerful as Superman could possibly be as humble as Clark Kent. This is a guy who was able to convince the world that any bad he's ever done, was done so by an evil cone, shapeshifting alien or mirror dimension self. A guy THAT genre savvy should've known better.
Nice post. You have made me less ignorant on Superman lore. Thanks!