Sword Art Online and sexual assault as tension(spoilers for SAO II)

[Kaimax]

What's more surprising to me in this thread is the fact that "you still watch it, when you know you hate it and know SAO is bad"

Me? I'm just watching for completions sake.
The only thing I'll agree on is "that scene went far too long for comfort"

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Jeez you make these threads complaining about propriety of things you haven't seen a lot.

More on topic:

SAO is not a good show. I've been watching because I apparently don't value my time, but the editing this season has been so hilarious.

A cold open of one of the episodes that cuts to their "super-exciting OP" is half of a conversation with his sister at the breakfast table.

The episode before this literally ended on a line that was something like "My sword is made from the armor of a space battleship". Not only does that make zero fucking sense, it just ends on that line as if it was super-dramatic.

Of course that bad editing continued into the attempted rape scene where crazy eyes went on and on waaaay too long.

To the point of this thread:

"Should sexual assault be used as tension?" Yes because it happens. It's better that it being completely ignored in media. In SAO it's being used frequently and poorly, but anyone who would stop watching because of that would've stopped a few episodes in.

Calm down and repeat after me:

SAO should not be taken seriously because SAO is terribly written from start to finish. SAO gets so much attention only because it was the first breakaway of the new 'gamer world' trope.

Log Horizon also did an MMO world which strove to be far more intellectually-minded.

It goes into long bouts of stuff about economic and political manipulation.

It's not for everyone, but it's true-to-MMO super nerdy in the best ways, but even it falls into the Japan's harem obsessive nonsense for a bit at the end when it runs out of steam its first season.

To me, using rape as a narrative device is almost always a one-use item because doing it again may seem exploitative.

Law and Order : SVU

I've watched SVU when I was 14 and I stopped because it was getting too repetitive and easy to predict. Also, Benson and Stebler weren't keeping my attention any longer so I had no reason to continue watching.

It's like why I stopped watching Criminal Minds; they ran out of ideas and are going way too over the top that all pretense for suspense is kind of lacking

As for SAO, I read the light novels and they had potential but they got really stupid, bloated, and looking back, the author uses sexual assault way too often and without much taste for discretion.

 

[CrystalShadow]

...

Well... That's depressing. I... Really don't know what to say about it though. I've been watching SAO, and while it seemed decent enough during the whole SAO storyline itself, it started to go downhill steeply when it got to the Alfheim online.

Guess it keeps going on a downward trend...

Watching Asuna get abused repeatedly (and creepy tentacle 'scientists' in one episode, just for good measure...) I'm really starting to wonder...

I haven't seen any of season two yet, and definitely not the scene in question...

Well... Rape... Yeah... That's just... I mean, is it really nessesary to keep going back to sexual assault themes?
I mean, I'm not against them as a concept as such, but when it happens over and over it starts to feel a little messed up...

I mean, I've been raped (not the violent extreme case you're probably imagining, but still...), and it's not something to take lightly...
Fighting back sounds a lot easier than it is though... The thing about rape is someone is doing something to you against your will, and it's very difficult to get them to stop...
If it weren't, rape wouldn't really be a thing in the first place...
My own experiences of it tell me that much... Even though there wasn't a huge amount of force being used, it was more than enough to ensure I basically couldn't move...


Anyway, not having seen the scene being discussed I can't say much else about it...

I don't know if it's such a bad thing, but going on what I've seen in SAO to date, I don't get a good feeling about it... So much creepy stuff later on in the first season...

 

[WhiteNachos]

Jeez you make these threads complaining about propriety of things you haven't seen a lot.

More on topic:

SAO is not a good show. I've been watching because I apparently don't value my time, but the editing this season has been so hilarious.

A cold open of one of the episodes that cuts to their "super-exciting OP" is half of a conversation with his sister at the breakfast table.

The episode before this literally ended on a line that was something like "My sword is made from the armor of a space battleship". Not only does that make zero fucking sense, it just ends on that line as if it was super-dramatic.

Of course that bad editing continued into the attempted rape scene where crazy eyes went on and on waaaay too long.

To the point of this thread:

"Should sexual assault be used as tension?" Yes because it happens. It's better that it being completely ignored in media. In SAO it's being used frequently and poorly, but anyone who would stop watching because of that would've stopped a few episodes in.

Calm down and repeat after me:

SAO should not be taken seriously because SAO is terribly written from start to finish. SAO gets so much attention only because it was the first breakaway of the new 'gamer world' trope.

Log Horizon also did an MMO world which strove to be far more intellectually-minded.

It goes into long bouts of stuff about economic and political manipulation.

It's not for everyone, but it's true-to-MMO super nerdy in the best ways, but even it falls into the Japan's harem obsessive nonsense for a bit at the end when it runs out of steam its first season.

To me, using rape as a narrative device is almost always a one-use item because doing it again may seem exploitative.

Law and Order : SVU

If Law and Order SVU isn't exploitative then I don't know what is.

"Hey let's take crimes that have happened in real life or even just alleged crimes if we're lucky, sprinkle some more rape and murder on it if it's not gritty enough and we got a show"

I swear the show acts like it's the grittiest show in the world because it can come up with 50 different scenarios with rape involved like it's playing Mad Libs or something. It's the same crap over and over meant to be shocking and it's not even that shocking.

Watch Se7en and you'll find scenarios more brutal than anything I've ever seen from that show.

 

[dragoongfa]

Calm down and repeat after me:

SAO should not be taken seriously because SAO is terribly written from start to finish. SAO gets so much attention only because it was the first breakaway of the new 'gamer world' trope.

I don't get why the show became popular. I watched the series and all I could think was "shouldn't there be riots in front of the game designer's house?"

If only some logic was used when writing that...

I don't want to go in a rant...

Fuck it...

Time for some Dragooning:

Riots in front of the game dev's house?

The stuff is minor compared to the other plot holes:

The microwave helmet, how the hell did that thing would pass safety regulation inspections in beyond me.

I don't know how that happened but you now have microwaves aimed directly at someone's brain; designed to go off when tampered with. Again how the hell did that pass both safety regulations and invasive tampering from tech enthusiasts/hackers?

Then we go to the fucking game world itself...

No log out? Seriously? Just because the Game Designer wished it so?

The first thing that would happen in a matter of hours is this: The police raiding the servers, government employed hackers connecting to it, see how the damn code works and re-implement the fucking log out button.

But a deranged, lone wolf, genius is better than the police.

How the fuck did he hide all that from his employees at the first place?

I don't even want to remember how many times I face palmed myself at the first episode alone.

Oh wait, there is more:

Kirito, the stupid OP character that shouldn't exist...

First rule in MMOs: You level up far faster with a group. What was the one thing Kirito didn't do? Enter a fucking clan because of 'reasons'. So why the fuck is he OP at the first place? Because he knows the damn spawns? Bullshit, raids and group quests are where the XP and epic loot are at and every MMO player knows it.

When he entered a clan for the first what's the one thing that he didn't do? Tell them how the game fucking works in order to keep them alive!

Kirito you are a fucking idiotic asshole and nothing that you have done after that point has redeemed you.

Next is Asuna:

Started out strong and brave, turned into a housewife (barely passable because 'Japan') but then a stupid damsel in distress because of 'reasons'.

Way to kill the only interesting character in the anime...

What there is more?

She and hundreds of others were still alive and connected to an other game? Are you fucking kidding me, couldn't someone trace where the fucking microwave helmet was connecting to? Or are IPs a thing of the past in SAO?

What there is even more?

She was getting married while comatosed in bed?

WTF?

Are you fucking kidding me?

Let me get this straight, where in the fucking world is it fucking legal to marry a comatose minor to an adult?

That adult is also the CEO of a big fucking company and no one picked up on it...

And the parents where ok with marrying their comatose minor girl to an adult because of 'reasons' and the state didn't just take custody away from them because of 'reasons'.

Sword Art Online: The more you think of it the less sense it makes.

 

[RandV80]

She did fight back but you can't always save yourself from rape or whatever bad thing may happen.

But from a narrative perspective it seems silly that Kirito is the one that comes rushing in to save the day.

1. His punk as was lucky the perp was a younger & scrawnier teen, could have been a dangerous criminal waiting for him there
2. Why wouldn't you send the police first? Now typically you would say that the police would be slow to respond to this sort of thing, but he's working directly for some special task force right now.
3. Maybe she pops in next episode but where's Asuna? She was there in the hospital with him before, I find it hard to believe that she'd suddenly turn on docile little wife mode and let him run off on his own.

Regardless though with this SJW stuff being all the rage these days it's funny watching kids react to these things sometimes.

 

[[Kira Must Die]]

I didn't have that problem with that scene. I thought it was genuinely creepy, especially if you consider that that guy was right next to her the whole time she was playing, probably doing god knows what to her unconscious body. Sinon handled the situation better than expected, considering she has PTSD.

Overall I think this season is vastly better than the first, and I actually enjoyed the first season. Most of the problems people bring up never bothered me, and Kirito doesn't rub me the wrong way like he does most people, as I enjoy seeing him kick ass. Most of the flaws people complain about I'm simply like "You know what? Sure... I'll buy it." Yes, you can say it's wish-fulfillment fantasy, but that's exactly it. It's wish-fulfillment, so I can wind down and enjoy it for what it is. And even if I had a problem with that I won't deny when the anime does something right, which it does several times, at least from my perspective.

EDIT: I'd just like to add this, for the whole sexism/misogyny/rape argument people keep making toward the series, let me just point to a highly acclaimed, highly praised anime/manga series.

In Berserk, nearly every female character, at some point, is shown nude or in a sexual manner, some even raped, no matter how strong they are depicted as being. It got to the point where any time a new female character would pop up I would just assume they'd be naked in a few scenes, and a lot of the time I was right. Yet, no one bats an eye or get all up in arms about it, and the series is still well regarded. One woman in particular is shown to be strong throughout, but at several points is victimized and talked down to by men, has a man save her several times, and is even raped, and ever since then her character completely changes from a strong woman to a weak one. This raises no backlash, no one is crying sexism or misogyny towards the series, and it is still highly regarded.

Sword Art Online has a female character who start out strong and independent, saving the main lead on several occasions, but is then turned into a damsel later for reasons that is NOT within her control, stuck in a world where she has no power, but still acts defiant, trying her best to keep her pride, and even tries escaping on her own. Even after being nearly sexually assaulted, she still retains her composure and personality. Everyone loses their shit, and that anime is condemned by many.

Now, Berserk is still the superior product by a landslide. It still has superior characters, story, and writing, but I just find that particular thing odd, unless I'm severely missing something.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

She did fight back but you can't always save yourself from rape or whatever bad thing may happen.

But from a narrative perspective it seems silly that Kirito is the one that comes rushing in to save the day.

1. His punk as was lucky the perp was a younger & scrawnier teen, could have been a dangerous criminal waiting for him there
2. Why wouldn't you send the police first? Now typically you would say that the police would be slow to respond to this sort of thing, but he's working directly for some special task force right now.
3. Maybe she pops in next episode but where's Asuna? She was there in the hospital with him before, I find it hard to believe that she'd suddenly turn on docile little wife mode and let him run off on his own.

Regardless though with this SJW stuff being all the rage these days it's funny watching kids react to these things sometimes.

While I will admit that perhaps I overreacted that it's still not good writing and just seems to add to the list of self-insert bull I see SAO do

I am just getting really tired of the self-insert aspect of anime. Yes, anime is made for demographics but that doesn't mean you coddle those demographics and tell them their fantasies are okay. No, reality is not that comfortable and while maybe some of the shows I like can go too far in the other end, I would still prefer them since it's giving people a slap to the face

Add my hate of self-insert with the generally abysmal writing of such works and it's a recipe for making me want to smash something.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip

I won't argue real world gender politics since i'm writing in a state of extreme tiredness but the only thing I will comment there is "giving people more tools and outs of a situation is still preferable and I would like to implement faster responses or defenses from this type of thing but the physical gap is something to consider"

As for the show itself, look this isn't the early 1930's when the Conan books were made or the 70's and 80's when the comics came out, this is 2014. The world has changed and we have to acknowledge that some of our old fantasies and gender paradigms are very, very, stupid and out of date. Add it it the general inability for my favorite medium to move thematically 99.9% of the time and it just gets more and more frustrating to see self-insert bull keep getting popular while good stuff is sidelined a good chunk of the times.

Times are changing and the otaku audience being pandered to at this point is shrinking ever so slowly. Writing and the politics that go into it better improve for our medium to advance past it's juvenile state. If you want to make these fantasies, at least be cognizant of the implications of said fantasies

 

[Arina Love]

I saw no problem with that, Kirito saves the day again just like Kirito always does it's what SAO is. What did you expect ? If you manged to watch SAO up to ep 13 of season 2 you should know by now how world works and that Kirito will come and save damsel in distress. Don't like it? Feel free to drop.

Times are changing and the otaku audience being pandered to at this point is shrinking ever so slowly.

Yeah i would like a citation on that. Judging from amount of fanservise shows every season otaku pandering still going strong. Not that it's a bad thing.

 

[Lilani]

Next is Asuna:

Started out strong and brave, turned into a housewife (barely passable because 'Japan') but then a stupid damsel in distress because of 'reasons'.

Way to kill the only interesting character in the anime...

What there is more?

She and hundreds of others were still alive and connected to an other game? Are you fucking kidding me, couldn't someone trace where the fucking microwave helmet was connecting to? Or are IPs a thing of the past in SAO?

What there is even more?

She was getting married while comatosed in bed?

WTF?

Are you fucking kidding me?

Let me get this straight, where in the fucking world is it fucking legal to marry a comatose minor to an adult?

That adult is also the CEO of a big fucking company and no one picked up on it...

And the parents where ok with marrying their comatose minor girl to an adult because of 'reasons' and the state didn't just take custody away from them because of 'reasons'.

Sword Art Online: The more you think of it the less sense it makes.

This is what really broke my excitement to watch SAO II. I didn't even mind Kirito and Asuna trying to settle down for a while, I totally get them wanting to get into a normal life started after so much fantasy. But the whole marriage thing was creepy and ridiculous. I basically just threw my hands up whenever Asuna was escaping from the cage and was caught by the lab techs, who apparently for no other reason than to be able to apprehend people with tentacles had weird slug avatars as opposed to--I don't know--regular humans with opposable thumbs.

It had so much potential, but all that damsel in distress shit in the end just really seemed to kill a lot of its steam. It was unexpectedly anticlimactic, which really just makes the whole thing feel expected.

 

[Jandau]

Ummm... isn't this Old Hat for SAO? I didn't watch the second season (mostly due to how much of a clusterfuck the second half of the first one was, and because Log Horizon is awesome), but the Strong Female Character gets reduced to a completely incompetent Damsel In Distress, while the main Villain is constantly threatening to sexually molest her, both in the game and outside of it (plus the tentacle slugs scene), culminating in the Villain gearing up to outright rape the said Damsel in front of the Protagonist. Sure, the Protagonist then pulls an I-WIN button out of his arse and saves the day, but the point stands.

SAO felt like two completely different people wrote the first two story arcs - the original story has Asuna as a strong, independent character (as much as one can be next to a blatant Marty Sue that Kirito is), while the second arc is about as misogynistic as it gets, with the said female character being disempowered and humiliated throughout the season.

Doesn't surprise me it continues that way in future arcs...

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I saw no problem with that, Kirito saves the day again just like Kirito always does it's what SAO is. What did you expect ? If you manged to watch SAO up to ep 13 of season 2 you should know by now how world works and that Kirito will come and save damsel in distress. Don't like it? Feel free to drop.

Times are changing and the otaku audience being pandered to at this point is shrinking ever so slowly.

Yeah i would like a citation on that. Judging from amount of fanservise shows every season otaku pandering still going strong. Not that it's a bad thing.

Perhaps I was a bit quick to claim that the audience is shrinking but it's more what I hope for. Eventually, these people will have to get jobs and lives once their parents and support network die off and when that happens, the pandering will probably stay the same but the audience sure will decreased.

Regardless, whether it's par for the course that Kirito always saves the girl, it's still bad writing that should be criticized

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Ummm... isn't this Old Hat for SAO? I didn't watch the second season (mostly due to how much of a clusterfuck the second half of the first one was, and because Log Horizon is awesome), but the Strong Female Character gets reduced to a completely incompetent Damsel In Distress, while the main Villain is constantly threatening to sexually molest her, both in the game and outside of it (plus the tentacle slugs scene), culminating in the Villain gearing up to outright rape the said Damsel in front of the Protagonist. Sure, the Protagonist then pulls an I-WIN button out of his arse and saves the day, but the point stands.

SAO felt like two completely different people wrote the first two story arcs - the original story has Asuna as a strong, independent character (as much as one can be next to a blatant Marty Sue that Kirito is), while the second arc is about as misogynistic as it gets, with the said female character being disempowered and humiliated throughout the season.

Doesn't surprise me it continues that way in future arcs...

Having read the light novels up to the fourth arc, not even the side charcters are immune to sexual assult.

I really hate this series

 

[Arina Love]

I saw no problem with that, Kirito saves the day again just like Kirito always does it's what SAO is. What did you expect ? If you manged to watch SAO up to ep 13 of season 2 you should know by now how world works and that Kirito will come and save damsel in distress. Don't like it? Feel free to drop.

Times are changing and the otaku audience being pandered to at this point is shrinking ever so slowly.

Yeah i would like a citation on that. Judging from amount of fanservise shows every season otaku pandering still going strong. Not that it's a bad thing.

Perhaps I was a bit quick to claim that the audience is shrinking but it's more what I hope for. Eventually, these people will have to get jobs and lives once their parents and support network die off and when that happens, the pandering will probably stay the same but the audience sure will decreased.

Regardless, whether it's par for the course that Kirito always saves the girl, it's still bad writing that should be criticized

Let's not generalize here. You think otaku can't have a job and a life ? Aren't you a little close minded? Or perhaps you think that otaku = hikikomori ? You fighting for social justice and yet you condemn and generalize a group of people ?

Kirito saving everyone is a theme of SAO it's not bad writing it's what SAO is and always been. You may not like it but there are plenty of people that do, and that's why he continues to write SAO LNs.

 

[Drummodino]

I really hate this series

That begs the question then, why continue watching it?

OT: I mostly agree with what [Kira Must Die] said.

]I didn't have that problem with that scene. I thought it was genuinely creepy, especially if you consider that that guy was right next to her the whole time she was playing, probably doing god knows what to her unconscious body. Sinon handled the situation better than expected, considering she has PTSD.

Overall I think this season is vastly better than the first, and I actually enjoyed the first season. Most of the problems people bring up never bothered me, and Kirito doesn't rub me the wrong way like he does most people, as I enjoy seeing him kick ass. Most of the flaws people complain about I'm simply like "You know what? Sure... I'll buy it." Yes, you can say it's wish-fulfillment fantasy, but that's exactly it. It's wish-fulfillment, so I can wind down and enjoy it for what it is. And even if I had a problem with that I won't deny when the anime does something right, which it does several times, at least from my perspective.

The things that bother people about SAO simply don't annoy me. While I haven't enjoyed this season as much as the first (Asuna, my favourite character, hasn't had enough screen time or involvement) it's been enjoyable. I like to watch Kirito kick ass like the Mary Sue that he is and Sinon is a pretty interesting character. The story is entertaining and I like all of the characters.

On the subject of villains - it is refreshing for me to have villains that are flat out disgusting and horrible, who you can just hate. Oberon in ALO and now [REDACTED] in GGO, have been disgusting, deplorable people. It's nice to just have despicable enemies instead of sympathetic villains with tragic pasts or plausibly good motivations for a change. Granted I think they spent a little too long on the sexual assault scene this time, but I still thought it was quite good.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

Didn't the author in a recent interview basically go "Boy was I young and horny back then!" when talking about his work?

I don't consider that an acceptable excuse. All people go through a horny phase when young yet are also able to control it well enough to make sure that it does not influence projects or works. If he wants to put erotic subtext in his work, he should make a romance harem, not a novel involving a death game and boss fights.

It's his book, he can write what he wants. So long as he doesn't actually pull that kind of shit IRL it's fine. And SAO is already a harem.

As for whether the attempted rape in SAO II was bad writing or not... It would have to depend on your perspective. It's a pretty used trope, but it's nowhere on the level of the "damsel in distress" trope, which is what SAO turned into halfway though the first season. If you take issue with bad writing, take issue with that. It's sort of turned into a self-indulgent author fantasy of the now.

Not that the anime is unwatchable; that suicide grenade hug was cute as fuck.

 

[Drummodino]

Not that the anime is unwatchable; that suicide grenade hug was cute as fuck.

Funniest moment of the season by far. I loved Sinon's expression and little giggle, it was nice to see her playful side.

 

[fezzthemonk]

Didn't the author in a recent interview basically go "Boy was I young and horny back then!" when talking about his work?

I don't consider that an acceptable excuse. All people go through a horny phase when young yet are also able to control it well enough to make sure that it does not influence projects or works. If he wants to put erotic subtext in his work, he should make a romance harem, not a novel involving a death game and boss fights.

I get what your saying, but you sound like your jugging his fantasy's. He can put eroticism in to any thing he wants cause that's what he was into. Just look at Heavy Metal, that was full of sex and murder, yet we call it juvenile and move on. We should be doing the same thing here.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I saw no problem with that, Kirito saves the day again just like Kirito always does it's what SAO is. What did you expect ? If you manged to watch SAO up to ep 13 of season 2 you should know by now how world works and that Kirito will come and save damsel in distress. Don't like it? Feel free to drop.

Times are changing and the otaku audience being pandered to at this point is shrinking ever so slowly.

Yeah i would like a citation on that. Judging from amount of fanservise shows every season otaku pandering still going strong. Not that it's a bad thing.

Perhaps I was a bit quick to claim that the audience is shrinking but it's more what I hope for. Eventually, these people will have to get jobs and lives once their parents and support network die off and when that happens, the pandering will probably stay the same but the audience sure will decreased.

Regardless, whether it's par for the course that Kirito always saves the girl, it's still bad writing that should be criticized

Let's not generalize here. You think otaku can't have a job and a life ? Aren't you a little close minded? Or perhaps you think that otaku = hikikomori ? You fighting for social justice and yet you condemn and generalize a group of people ?

Kirito saving everyone is a theme of SAO it's not bad writing it's what SAO is and always been. You may not like it but there are plenty of people that do, and that's why he continues to write SAO LNs.

Can otaku have jobs, yes. unfortunately, a good chunk of the revenue for anime is from merchandise and a significant chunk of merchandise is targeted to hikikomori who live under the support of their parents' money and don't need to work for anything. They are targeting the demographic that is supported by their families; why else would blu-rays be so expensive. Perhaps I did jump the gun a bit and failed to use the right rhetoric but I will concede my failure in that regard. However on a specific note, this is not a social justice issue, this is an issue of bad writing and stupid fantasies.

Also, theme or not, it's still based of a stupid self-insert fantasy. I get that Asuna tried to free herself in ALO and that Sinon is pretty independent in the game but the sexual assault and constant harem nature destroy what was a perfectly good concept and a perfectly good romance (I admit the Kirito/Asuna romance was somewhat cute in the first half of SAO). I don't know why SAO LNs still sell but lets turn the question around a different way and I think this is more relavent for you; why are Infinite Stratos LNs still being made? It's not because of the writing; characters don't develop past tropes and the protagonist is insufferable. It's not because of the action; it gets sidelined way too often. The only reason I can think is a self-insert fantasy and the cute but generic girls (note, I have actually read them in high school during my infinite boredom, one of the worst mistakes of my life culturally). I have a feeling most people buying SAO have an equally base reason.