Teenagers Kill Child in "Mortal Kombat" Murder
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
- Start date
To some extent, I'm willing to follow you on the Thought Crime bit, just because I could bring up numerous examples of things where individual's rights to certain things are curtailed by crime prevention methods, even though that individual never would've committed a crime had their rights not been infringed (that sentence is hard for me to parse, even having written it. I am not saying they did commit a crime because their rights were infringed, but simply that had their rights not been infringed, no crime would've taken place either). Personal freedoms are sacrificed to the greater good in order to prevent crime (in many cases). That, I think, is a personal trade-off we all have to deal with, and all have different preferences on, and not something where there is an absolute truth. Me? I'm willing to accept those limitations on my rights in order to live a more carefree life.jaredgood1 said:
On the other hand, with regards to disregarding mens rea, and the act being the only thing that is bad... Are you saying that you think manslaughter and murder are equivalent, because the act is the same? Personally, I think intent matters quite a bit when it comes to categorizing and punishing (or not punishing, as may be the case) a crime.
To the crowd at large: I noticed several comments to the extent of "those kids are just mentally off". That almost seems as cavalier to me as blaming it on the videogames. Saying "People who do bad things are simply wrong in the head" lacks any sort of empathy, and doesn't really help anything at all, except to make you feel warm in fuzzy in knowing that you're okay, and you would never do something like that. "I'm a good boy, I swear. It's just them that is messed up. I could never be them. Because I'm a good boy! See?"
To "act out" a violent video game does indeed show that there's something wrong with their heads - that they're unable to distinguish reality from fantasy. Maybe they had some kind of subconscious violent urge within them. Or maybe their parents didn't raise them right. Even if something happened make them susceptible to being "influenced" by some pretend thing like a video game, who's to say that something else (ie. martial arts, paintball, wrestling, chess, the bible, shakespeare, etc.) could not do the same?Geoffrey42 said:
Of course, there's always the possibility that they're just sadistic pricks who are too immature to accept responsibility for their actions, and were seeking to use Mortal Kombat as a Get Out of Jail Free Card. If someone's dishonest enough to murder their own sister, they probably wouldn't think twice about trying to shift the blame away from themselves and towards something else ("Durr, Mortal Kombat made me do it!").
To say that they were merely victims of the circumstances surrounding them is a bit of a stretch, especially considering that they were 17 and 16 - well beyond the impressionable first five years of one's life - the period where one needs Mommy and Daddy to tell them that what they see on the big box is just "pretend" things. It certainly doesn't help that they were boozing it up (can't blame the problem entirely on that, though, as Rjak pointed out).
I cant seem to find any empathy for someone who brutally murdered an innocent child. Maybe its because I have a young daughter myself, but to think of someone just beating her to death for ANY reason is insanity at its purest level. For someone to have no conscious for an act like that shows a lack of empathy in themselves. No, I never would do something like that, and I think im more of a value to society because of those basic morals.Geoffrey42 said:
I think what Geoffrey42 was trying to get at was not about the empathy bit, but more of the idea that 'these guys are whackos and I'm completely different from them'. Just because we play Mortal Kombat and don't kick kids to death doesn't mean that those who don't subscribe to that should be regarded as 'wrong in the head'.Slurms said:
I mean, it's just projection written all over. Everyone wants to hold the belief that gaming doesn't cause violence (using themselves as an example), so anyone else who actually proves the contrary must have an internal disposition to do so (in short, don't blame the game, blame your head, because I didn't kick kids when I played Mortal Kombat).
It sorta hearkens back to the old cliched pro-gun arguments: "Guns don't kill people; people do." In this case, there seems to be a belief that video games don't kill people, but people do. I'm not backing one or the other, but I think there needs to be some sort of balance here, instead of just exclusively chalking it up to a person's mental instability and throwing how gaming affects aggression out the window.
I have not yet been convinced that what happened was the result of "acting out" a videogame. Lacking THAT assumption, I find it idiotic to conclude that there's something wrong with their heads. While I'm not sure what your basis for your first paragraph is, I don't think it has anything to do with what I said.Duck Sandwich said:
The accepting responsibility thing again points towards an assumption that the kids are the ones blaming Mortal Kombat, which again, I don't think is a valid assumption based on the evidence presented in the news articles. And what, exactly, does dishonesty have to do with killing a little sister? Vicious, amoral, sure, but dishonest? Where does that come from?
I don't recall anyone saying that they were victims of the circumstances, though I must say, you haven't spent enough time around 16-17 year olds if you don't think they're impressionable. Maybe not 1-5 yo impressionable, but they're not 30 yo adults either.
*Note: I don't believe in free will, but I do believe in holding individuals accountable for their actions.
My point about empathy is that the people writing these kids off as mentally deficient weren't even trying empathy, and in fact, were doing the exact opposite. They are shutting out any possibility that MAYBE, in the same situation, they would've ended up the same way. No, if it were them, it never would've come to this. Because good people don't do those sorts of things. Sane people just can't.Slurms said:
Who said these kids don't have any conscious about what happened? Where do I see their statements saying they don't feel horrible about it? Why jump to that conclusion? Oh, that's right. Because it makes them seem less human. It makes it easier for you to distance yourself from the reality that normal people do bad things. That someday, YOU might do a bad thing.
It all comes down to a classic case of "the other" in society. We are good, and "they" are bad, and anything that is bad must be "them", because we are good. Q.E.D. Right...
If people have no free will, then they have no choice but to act in whatever way that fate chooses. Fate is a sadistic bastard, then, and all the gang-rapists, drug dealers, suicide bombers, etc. are just puppets of its strings. Why should they be punished for things they have no control over?Geoffrey42 said:
Whether free will exists or not is debatable. I don't think we can prove whether it does or doesn't exist at this point. I believe in free will, but then again, maybe that's just me being naive and stupid.
As for the whole "dishonesty" thing, yeah, I worded that badly. Someone who is amoral to the point where would kill their sister in such a way would probably weasel their way out of it if they could, in order to get away with it. They were trying to make themselves seem not so bad by saying they were "acting out" Mortal Kombat (which is a lie on their part, unless I just happened to never come across the ass slapping fatality whenever I played it). That is, unless of course, the Denver Post is lying. That possibility isn't too farfetched, considering the general public's "OMG videogames are evil!" mindset.
What makes it hard to empathize is the fact that we don't know WHY they killed the girl. Or HOW they could have been influenced to do it. There's the whole Mortal Kombat thing which it seems that we all agree is a load of crap.
Then there's the "I was drunk" thing. Maybe it WAS because they got drunk. Maybe. Being drunk can lead to violence sometimes. But even then, they CHOSE to get drunk.Geoffrey42 said:
"Something's wrong with their heads" doesn't necessarily mean "they're evil bastards." It could be that the parents fucked up, or that as impressionable 5 year olds, they were exposed to something they shouldn't have been. That shit can happen. And it can screw people up really badly, for their entire life. (ie, if you're brought up in a society where monogamy is the way to go, then yes, you'll believe that too, because what's familiar is correct). I agree with that.
FATALITY!!
I'm sorry. But come on, how the hell could they blame drunken kids beating a girl to death on Mortal Kombat? I came into this expecting that she may have had her spine ripped out or head eaten or something over the top and very MK, but no... just a simple bashing. Of course everyone needs a scape goat.
I'm sorry. But come on, how the hell could they blame drunken kids beating a girl to death on Mortal Kombat? I came into this expecting that she may have had her spine ripped out or head eaten or something over the top and very MK, but no... just a simple bashing. Of course everyone needs a scape goat.
Chris Kohler at Wired's Game|Life blog sums this up perfectly:
From the Blog:
---------------------------------
If the two teenagers charged in the death of their 7-year-old sister told the police that they were drunkenly engaged in a real-life game of "Mortal Kombat," then I agree that that certainly merits a mention in the story. But that doesn't mean you, like the Rocky Mountain News, should then attempt to sensationalize the story by appending several paragraphs onto the end with speculation about the effects of violent videogames.
Because let's not let this story serve as a launch pad for discussions of real issues like lack of adequate child care. Or underage binge drinking. No: Because one of the two said they were "playing Mortal Kombat," let's let that distract all of us from what might have actually led to this tragic death.
We'll see if this becomes another Lionel Tate case, where the defendants put up the "videogames defense" in an attempt to escape jail time.
---------------------------------
LINK: http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/12/angry-morning-b.html#more
It really is ridiculous. This is a story about two drunken teenagers beating a 7 YEAR OLD GIRL to death, and the media focuses on the videogames? unFUCKINGbelievable.
Try child abuse, or drinking, or effects of teenage depression, or whatever the fuck they want to blame this on, but bringing up the overlong, hackneyed and extremely tiresome argument about videogame violence is fucking stupid.
From the Blog:
---------------------------------
If the two teenagers charged in the death of their 7-year-old sister told the police that they were drunkenly engaged in a real-life game of "Mortal Kombat," then I agree that that certainly merits a mention in the story. But that doesn't mean you, like the Rocky Mountain News, should then attempt to sensationalize the story by appending several paragraphs onto the end with speculation about the effects of violent videogames.
Because let's not let this story serve as a launch pad for discussions of real issues like lack of adequate child care. Or underage binge drinking. No: Because one of the two said they were "playing Mortal Kombat," let's let that distract all of us from what might have actually led to this tragic death.
We'll see if this becomes another Lionel Tate case, where the defendants put up the "videogames defense" in an attempt to escape jail time.
---------------------------------
LINK: http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/12/angry-morning-b.html#more
It really is ridiculous. This is a story about two drunken teenagers beating a 7 YEAR OLD GIRL to death, and the media focuses on the videogames? unFUCKINGbelievable.
Try child abuse, or drinking, or effects of teenage depression, or whatever the fuck they want to blame this on, but bringing up the overlong, hackneyed and extremely tiresome argument about videogame violence is fucking stupid.
I have to call BS on this one. Come on, Mortal Kombat? They are just sick and twisted, and the alcohol most likely played a part in it. But I've never believed that video games can be directly linked to violence, and this article has certainly not made me have an epiphany. If these two seriously did do it because of what they saw in a 15 year old video game, they had something wrong with them before they even picked up a controller.
I'm shocked about the mentioning of Mortal Kombat.
Correct me if I'm wrong but since when does watching a guy get his spine and head torn from his body = beat your little sister to death? Explain the maths to me and I'll believe their lie.
Everyone blames videogames to try and get themselves off the hook and I'm sick of it. When will everyone just grow some balls, admit to their wrongdoings and stop feeding those losers who think video games are wrong (I'm looking squarely at YOU Jack Thompson) with your ignorance.
I've played Doom for over 10 years now and I've never gone nuts with a shotgun or chainsaw, looking for something to kill just because I saw it on a game.
I agree with milocade. Hang them both.
Correct me if I'm wrong but since when does watching a guy get his spine and head torn from his body = beat your little sister to death? Explain the maths to me and I'll believe their lie.
Everyone blames videogames to try and get themselves off the hook and I'm sick of it. When will everyone just grow some balls, admit to their wrongdoings and stop feeding those losers who think video games are wrong (I'm looking squarely at YOU Jack Thompson) with your ignorance.
I've played Doom for over 10 years now and I've never gone nuts with a shotgun or chainsaw, looking for something to kill just because I saw it on a game.
I agree with milocade. Hang them both.
Damn, these guys get drunk under the legal drinking age, beat their sister to death... and people ignore the underage and drink part and focus on a video game? Who are the fuck wits in the news business over there?
I would have brought up alcohol education issues, myself... but there we go.
I would have brought up alcohol education issues, myself... but there we go.
Hasn't yet.GrungeHead said:
We have to accept free will, because the understanding of the lack of it leads to maddness and the collapse of civilization.
I find it interesting that none have brought up the teenagers parents in this particular discussion. They where 17 and 16 at the time and not even in Sweden would it be legal for them to be drinking. I suspect that these two individuals could have turned out to be normal healthy members of society if their parents had instilled upon them a certain sense of responsibility and a fear of consequences. Since they lacked the required amount of both to stop themselves from doing what even psychotics know is against societies rules somewhere, someone failed. That's the person or persons I would like to have a talk with in a dark alley, to thank them personally for their laziness which resulted in the complete destruction in three lives.