The Autopsy

Trunkage

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Got a video from Kyle 'I win arguments based soley on my yelling ability' Kulinski


Bill Maher has some thoughts on the Dems performance. Hates SJW, Defund the Police, populist ideas and almost lost the election for them. Instead being Republican lite got them the win.

I actually agree with much of Kyle's analysis. Mainly show me the Cancellers on the Dems side. I don't see that many. So how did they make them lose. Because, if anything, they've been real friendly with Republicans not named Trump. And that made them lose.

It's gonna be an interesting civil war inside the Dem voters and I don't think Biden has the capacity to hold them together
 

Hawki

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This is more a response to Maher than Kulinski, but...

Okay, the Dems didn't lose. They won the electoral college, as well as the popular vote. On the other hand, all of Maher's criticisms are valid. The Democrats and the American left (though not just American) has their own branch of crazies, as Maher lays out. Course I can't vote either way, but the Democrats' branch of craziness is less destructive than the Republicans. I'll take Biden with a side of bullshit, than bullshit with a side of governance.
 

Agema

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I think what we can be quite sure is that a vast number of people will have very firm ideas about why the Democrats didn't annihilate Trump, and none of them will be able to convincingly demonstrate it.
 

Trunkage

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This is more a response to Maher than Kulinski, but...

Okay, the Dems didn't lose. They won the electoral college, as well as the popular vote. On the other hand, all of Maher's criticisms are valid. The Democrats and the American left (though not just American) has their own branch of crazies, as Maher lays out. Course I can't vote either way, but the Democrats' branch of craziness is less destructive than the Republicans. I'll take Biden with a side of bullshit, than bullshit with a side of governance.
I remember people talking about 2016 primaries and how Sanders people came to the Convention and the utter out of place the Left is from the DNC. I am suprised they held it together

I also personally put this up because I have no idea about this Latinx thing. I thought it was Corporate Liberal speak, not Leftie. Also have no idea if it's offensive as Maher pretends.

I think what we can be quite sure is that a vast number of people will have very firm ideas about why the Democrats didn't annihilate Trump, and none of them will be able to convincingly demonstrate it.
They're probably both right. I saw a interview with an independent complaining how Biden pretends to be a Socailist so much. And I laughed. But I would also acknowledge that defund the police is a great and terrible marketing strategy. Its galvanised and ostracized at the same time.
 
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Hawki

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I also personally put this up because I have no idea about this Latinx thing. I thought it was Corporate Liberal speak, not Leftie. Also have no idea if it's offensive as Maher pretends.
So, I can't speak for everyone, but I've read that only about 3% of the group in question actually use "Latinx," and the people who mostly use it are "the liberal elite." Y'know, the people who want to appear being progressive for being the sake of it.

Me personally, "Latinx" really bugs me, as:

-There's no real consensus as to how to pronounce it, and however you do pronounce it, it sounds like a tissue brand (Latin-ex? La-tinx?)

-It's supposed to be gender inclusive. Okay, but, considering that people who don't conform to male or female account for between 0.1 and 1% of the population, this is kind of a solution without a problem.

-It feels really out of place in the Spanish language - ending a word in "X," rather than "A" or "O." We can discuss the idea of 'linguistic imperialism' (as others already have), but you only have to listen to one of the romance languages for a short period of time to realize that it sounds out of place. Even something like "Latines" would be a bit more pleasing to the ear.

And I know, small problems, but, well, meh.
 

sXeth

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So, I can't speak for everyone, but I've read that only about 3% of the group in question actually use "Latinx," and the people who mostly use it are "the liberal elite." Y'know, the people who want to appear being progressive for being the sake of it.

Me personally, "Latinx" really bugs me, as:

-There's no real consensus as to how to pronounce it, and however you do pronounce it, it sounds like a tissue brand (Latin-ex? La-tinx?)

-It's supposed to be gender inclusive. Okay, but, considering that people who don't conform to male or female account for between 0.1 and 1% of the population, this is kind of a solution without a problem.

-It feels really out of place in the Spanish language - ending a word in "X," rather than "A" or "O." We can discuss the idea of 'linguistic imperialism' (as others already have), but you only have to listen to one of the romance languages for a short period of time to realize that it sounds out of place. Even something like "Latines" would be a bit more pleasing to the ear.

And I know, small problems, but, well, meh.

I would've figured anyone who was worried enough about the matter to want to be called a non-gender specific variation of a broad stroke ethnic label would rather be addressed by the actual Mexican/Cuban/Puero Rican/et al. Which always made it sound weird to attemtp this "progressive" label, while still applying the somewhat racially tinged broad-spectrum ethnic one.
 

Trunkage

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I would've figured anyone who was worried enough about the matter to want to be called a non-gender specific variation of a broad stroke ethnic label would rather be addressed by the actual Mexican/Cuban/Puero Rican/et al. Which always made it sound weird to attemtp this "progressive" label, while still applying the somewhat racially tinged broad-spectrum ethnic one.
Okay.

But who actually uses the term? I don't come across people saying / writing it. I also dont live in America
 

sXeth

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Okay.

But who actually uses the term? I don't come across people saying / writing it. I also dont live in America
Prettysure I've only ever seen it on twitter a bare handful of times. Despite the generally left leaning of a lot of the folks I have followed.
 

Trunkage

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Prettysure I've only ever seen it on twitter a bare handful of times. Despite the generally left leaning of a lot of the folks I have followed.
I've been wondering if Maher was speaking out of his arse. So perhaps he is
 

Buyetyen

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Bill Maher is a **** who has spent the better part of the last decade telling Millennials to get off his lawn.
 

tstorm823

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I've been wondering if Maher was speaking out of his arse. So perhaps he is
This is where the term is being used:


That is also where people got voted out.

Edit: to save people the read, in recent years, polls have found only 1% of twitter has used the term "latinx" and only 3% of latinx people have used "latinx", and meanwhile 50% of congressional Democrats have used "latinx" on social media.
 

tstorm823

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To give my opinion, the problem is neither the "woke lefties" nor the "centrists". The problem is not that they are turning people off voting for Democrats with their policies. The problem is that the Democrats are increasingly failing to turn people off voting for Republicans. The last half-century of American politics has involved a perpetual campaign by Democrats to convince people that Republicans are racist and sexist and so is anyone who votes for them, and the strategy is starting to fail.

Like, why are we even talking about Democrats losing? They won the presidency, held the house, and still have an outside chance of taking control of the senate. Losing seats from their commanding majority in the house is relatively unimportant politically compared to what they won. Expectations are part of it, nobody is excited to win a close game that was supposed to be a blowout in their favor, but that's not what's causing the panic. What's causing the panic is how they won what they did and how they lost what they did. Between 2016 and 2020, the Democrats gained votes largely among middle-aged white people, particularly men. They lost vote share among every other race of voter. They lost vote share among millenials. They lost a dozen house seats to a very diverse freshman class of Republicans, they're majority women from a half-dozen ethnicities with many 1st or 2nd generation Americans. I know it's not a huge jump here, but even a small demographic shift like this is terrifying to Democrats, because every minority voter that registers as a Republican is another nail in the coffin for the lies Democrats run on.

It's not about which policies the Democratic party decides to pursue. I'm sure they're capable of selling a wide variety of things if they really wanted to. The problem is now they have to, because the writing is on the wall, they can't keep depending on racial division to win elections, they're gonna have to start selling their policies to the people. Like, look at the ongoing BLM movement, and Democrat politicians' responses. Grassroots people put forward specific policy proposals, and Democratic politicians waffle and do nothing and basically say "well, the important thing is that we all agree it's Republicans' fault". Like, the moment it looked like the Republicans in the Senate would vote for police reform, Democrats dropped it like a hot potato. I understand some people here think police reform is genuinely a bad thing, but to those of you who do believe in progress, that should be a big red flag signaling what's going on here: they care less about policy than they do about claiming Republicans are racist. And the thought of losing that cudgel terrifies them.

As a Republican, I've joked that I'm not a big Trump guy but if he got 20% of black voters to vote for him I'd put his face on Mt Rushmore. Not only because that'd be great for the Republican Party, but because it'd be great for the whole of America, including the Democratic Party, to get out of this hole that Lyndon Johnson dug us into.
 

happyninja42

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Bill Maher is a **** who has spent the better part of the last decade telling Millennials to get off his lawn.
While true, being an asshole doesn't exclude a person from being right about various topics. Now I haven't watched this specific video of Maher's as I don't really watch him much anymore, but he does make good cases on various points. Not sure what his ratio of "good points : old man bitching" is, as I think it can vary wildly from topic to topic.
 

Baffle

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So, I can't speak for everyone, but I've read that only about 3% of the group in question actually use "Latinx," and the people who mostly use it are "the liberal elite." Y'know, the people who want to appear being progressive for being the sake of it.
I'm not sure the liberal elite (unclear on who that is) or anyone else only wants to be seen as progressive. They probably want to be progressive, just not in a way that conflicts with a comfortable lifestyle.
 

Tireseas

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(Didn't watch the linked video as I watched the RTwithBM video when it came up in my YT feed and am generally not a fan of YT political commentators as they're more often than not 1 step above InfoWars).

For those looking for what I feel was a better version of the same conversation, The Daily had a pair of good interviews with Rep. Ocasio-Cortez and Rep. Lamb on the internal debate.


I think what we can be quite sure is that a vast number of people will have very firm ideas about why the Democrats didn't annihilate Trump, and none of them will be able to convincingly demonstrate it.
This is kind of where I'm at. The margin of victory was so close and, as far as I can tell, very few legislators substantially over/under-preformed compared to the nominees where it was competitive (with Collins being the biggest exception and the Georgia Special as there were 4 candidates), though finding anything for house reps is a bit more difficult than senate and I'm not digging into SoS data just to support my "meh."


I think the biggest problem is that the Democrats are effectively a coalition of political minorities, whether racial, ideological, LGBTQ+, etc., meaning while almost everyone is going to support changes to the system, there's very little unity as to what those changes are inclined to be. Conversely, the GOP, while their policies do not command majority support when polled in most cases, tend to represent the political majority (white, hetero, generally male) (not to be confused with the popular majority), which means there's very little unity on specific policy in term of their voters, but will generally support anything that affirms or maintains their cultural status. Dems are united in wanting change, Republicans are united in resisting said change, which I would argue is likely the bigger dynamic between the parties now than anything Biden or Trump actually did or said.

If there's a progressive future for the Dems, I don't see it any time soon. There's a net Republican favorability in many states and congressional districts that the Dems need to hold majorities in the legislature so that policy can go through.
 
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Iron

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Progressives can stop pretending they're in the same party as Democrats and that the entire reasons they voted for a talking racist corpse - which was to win the elections - actually won them nothing.
 
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happyninja42

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I think the biggest problem is that the Democrats are effectively a coalition of political minorities, whether racial, ideological, LGBTQ+, etc., meaning while almost everyone is going to support changes to the system, there's very little unity as to what those changes are inclined to be. Conversely, the GOP, while their policies do not command majority support when polled in most cases, tend to represent the political majority (white, hetero, generally male) (not to be confused with the popular majority), which means there's very little unity on specific policy in term of their voters, but will generally support anything that affirms or maintains their cultural status. Dems are united in wanting change, Republicans are united in resisting said change, which I would argue is likely the bigger dynamic between the parties now than anything Biden or Trump actually did or said.

If there's a progressive future for the Dems, I don't see it any time soon. There's a net Republican favorability in many states and congressional districts that the Dems need to hold majorities in the legislature so that policy can go through.
I mostly agree, that the amount of diversity associated with the Democratic party, does lend itself to internal division, as a result of said diversity. I think it is fair to say that they are more prone to having conflicting goals on more topics than Republicans, simply due to them having more insular, focused objectives. One group is mostly concerned with LGBTQ for example, and not as worried about Some Other Issue/Group that is in their base. They will have the obligatory, blanket assertion that everyone has right to life/freedom/etc, but when it comes to voting, if there is a significant difference on Their Topic Of Importance, yeah, they're going to be less internally consistent. And that is a problem for the Democrats. I think it's something that isn't easy to consolidate, at least not in one generation of politically active people. It's the kind of thing, that I think becomes easier, after a few generations have been raised through a more diverse setting, making it less of an Us/Them, and more just Us. The problem is that in the time it takes for that to become more standardized, you have elections, and votes for changing of laws, which throw a huge wrench into that plan, as you now have to play damage control, and make up for lost progress.

It's a huge fucking mess. I think in the short term, it does work in the Republican's favor, as you say, they are more internally consistent, but I feel they are a dying species, idealogically anyway. It sucks in the meantime, because you have to deal with power hungry shitbags like mitch and trump, actively shitting on human decency for personal gain, and apparently just fucking spite
 

crimson5pheonix

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I think AOC hit on the head. On top of running on the bonehead position of trying to be Republicans, Democrats lost because they don't know how to campaign in the down ballot races. They're just politically unaware derps who expect elections to be handed to them on the moral high ground and become the whiniest and most petulant people when they don't. The core party's response to getting kicked around tells the whole story on why they lost. They fought against popular policies, didn't bother to campaign (not really) and then act shocked and blamed others when they lost. Hillary did it 4 years ago and now literal CIA operatives within the party are blaming the big winners of the election for their own loss.