The Big Picture: Batman Revisited, Part 4

Ukomba

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Never thought of Batman and Robbin as gay centric. Just seemed bizarre, silly, and just generally off. Now that you mention why, I can see it, but where it comes from is less important than I just didn't and don't like it.

Also, I don't see a contradiction for disliking bat nipples and liking spandex cat woman. That seems like those two thoughts would naturally go together.
 

Diddy_Mao

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From the sound of things I can assume that Mr Bob and myself are probably around the same age and yeah I can attest that there was a lot of backlash to the perceived gayness of Batman & Robin.

However much I disagree with that mind set I still think that Batman & Robin is an abortion of a film and not just because it was campy. Yes, I prefer that my Batman be dark and gritty but I'm well aware that campy can work for the series (see also Batman the Brave and the Bold) it just didn't work here.

I even can't watch it even as a "so bad it's good" movie, because it's not. It's just regular, plain old bad and I think a lot of this comes down to the fact that it's pretty boring. Yeah there's a lot of goofy action and stupid puns and a lot of flashing colours but at the end of the day that's ALL it's remembered for. I couldn't even tell you what the overall plot of the movie was or who all the characters were.

Here's a perfect example of what I mean.
I frequently forget that Bane is a villain in this film. I may not be a big fan of Bane, I don't really like him as a character in the comics but regardless of my dislike for him I shouldn't be able to so quickly forget that he was even IN the movie.

So yeah, that's my two cents. I can get around visual changes that I may not agree with. I can overlook less that optimal casting choices and I can forgive completely reworking established back stories.

But I can't do is stomach a boring action movie.
 

DemBones

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I wouldn't say Schumacher's gay sensibilities had anything to do with the film being terrible. Schumacher is not a very good director, period. His general sensibilities are what ruined the movie. Schumacher has only made one good-to-great film (Falling Down) and as Bob has pointed out there are many more problems than simply the aesthetics.

I would also disregard my opinions from when I was an 8-year old. Liking the film when I was younger does not make it good today. If I ran into my 8-year old self today he would probably really annoy me (and terrify me as I try to find out where he came from).

Also I'm pretty sure Bryan Singer, with the toned down X-men films, is the most successful gay filmmaker. He also would have gotten royalties for House, which would help.
 

Callate

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This was a much fairer assessment than I had expected. I don't know to what extent (if at all) that was because of some of the reaction to #3, but I'll still say thanks, Bob. And apologies if I jumped the gun in my expectations.

I'll just say that I don't think I could even enjoy B&R as an exercise in "camp" or "so bad its good" (though what I've seen of Rifftrax's take on same, I'll admit, is pretty damn hillarious.) Funny thing... Whatever you'd say of something like Flash Gordon or Street Fighter, I generally get the feeling that the actors playing the roles are having a good time. Actors like Brian Blessed and Raul Julia, in particular, look like they're having a blast. (One gets the impression that poor Raul Julia was really enjoying a chance to set aside the more serious roles on which he'd made his career and play guys like Bison and Gomez Addams... It's really a shame he died so young.) The only person in B&R who looks like he might be enjoying himself is Arnold, and it feels like it's because he's been allowed to do whatever he wants, however out of touch it might be with what anyone else is doing, including the scriptwriter.

I mean, don't get me wrong... The expectations of three earlier movies were also something Flash and Fighter didn't have to deal with.
 

2xDouble

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If anything can be derived from this piece it's the feeling of overwhelming "meh", I sense coming from Batman Rises. I guess we'll see on Friday.
 

Redd the Sock

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In fairness, at the time, most of us didn't want to be reminded of the camp Batman used to have. Comics generally require a level of suspension of disbeleif, one which is hard to maintain with any (non-ironic) reminder of a time Batman was at the villan's mercy regulalry, but never shot or unmasked, but strapped to a bizare death machine and left alone to escape. On it's own, that treatment might have spared it some bashing, but mixed with more serious story elements and things just clashed in a bad way, and really wasn't the best use of two of the villans. Mr. Freeze's story just worked much better somber, and Bane...well... at tthat point he hadn't been made a complete joke in the comics yet so it was sad to see the man that broke the bat reduced to grunts and demeaner more associated with Killer Croc.
 

Canadamus Prime

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I honestly didn't think Batman and Robyn was that bad. Yeah it wasn't good by any means, but it wasn't that bad. Most of the humor was waaay over the top, the dialogue was cheezy as hell, and the action was laughable; but like most things, it wasn't nearly as bad as the Internet would have us believe.
 

gorfias

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Didja all hear that they thought of making Rambo 5. It would be sort of like Rambo meets the Predator in the arctic. I am not kidding.

I think one should review the movie they saw, but when you are watching a movie series, you have some obligation to maintain the tone.

Batman Forever was not a perfect film, but Batman was still pretty cool, as was Robin. Robin was a goof in Batman and Robin. It was a stupid, campy film that in no way maintained what worked in Batman Forever.

I cannot review it as a camp classic anymore than I would appreciate a Rambo Preditor mashup. It is a betrayal of the series and an outrage. To this day, I have not been able to bring myself to watch it again.

Just awful.
 

Trishbot

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
You will note that Bob himself said that his major problems with the film were more to do with the narrative structure, art direction, acting and casting than they were to do with the sexual imagery.
Yes... and yet he dedicates a majority of the video NOT talking about these problems and addressing the other issues he perceives are a core problem... while sort of saying they're not a core problem. Hard for it to be a core problem when he himself admits they aren't.

Also that Bob clearly stated that Joel Schumacher's sexuality has no bearing on his opinion of the film.
But his apparently enjoyment of the film, and the backlash against the film, he feels has strong bearings upon Schumacher's sexuality. I disagree almost entirely with him on that. I have yet to see anyone hate on The Lost Boys or Phone Booth because Schumacher is gay.

What Bob spoke about was the backlash the film got, nearly all of which was focused on the fact that Batman and Robin were dressed up in sexualised outfits. He points out that a lot of this was hypocritical considering that the same fans who cried out against the Batsuit also loved the Catsuit from Batman Returns...
Here's a big difference though; Catwoman's suit in Batman Returns actually has a thematic reason for being what it is, and the creators created a very clever metaphor for her own frazzled psyche that has been stitched together and is slowly coming apart as the film goes on and on. Catwoman's sexuality has always been a key part of her character since her very inception, and the suit, in particular in Batman Returns, was a shell, a mask, she used to vicarious live out her own highly repressed sexual side. Even in the comics, Catwoman has stated she feels sexier and stronger in her suit and more vulnerable without it... despite there being no real difference. Tim Burton and co. "got' the layered psychology of its character in Batman Returns, and the suit had actual MEANING. There is NO meaning to Schumacher's suits other than "sell more toys".

...and that a lot of the supposed 'gay' that people were whinging about was actually just stuff that came from the Batman comics before Frank Miller got all grim and dirty with the mythos.
People really need to learn that Frank Miller did not kick-start the "darker" Batman stories. Dennis O'Neil was dealing with darker issues almost a whole decade before Miller's seminal piece of work. It was under Denny's pen that Batman dealt with drug abuse, environmental terrorism, and psychologically disturbed criminals. The "campy" Batman of the 50s and 60s was largely a reaction against the Comic Code Authority stepping in, a public outcry over the book "Seduction of the Innocent" (ironically a book saying comics promoted homosexuality to children), and the fact that EVERY DC character was having campy stories at the time, including Wonder Woman, Batman, and the rest of the gang. Batman was just along for the ride, fighting robot monkeys in space and time traveling in the past to stop guys like "Quilt Man" from messing with the colors of the world. That was a "dark period" of creativity that, while silly and fun, moved away from Batman's origins as the terror of the night and scourge of criminals. Frank Miller's work was a capstone on a push away from that that started in the early 70s.

The issue isn't that Schumacher is gay, or that you seem to think that Bob was laying the blame at Schumacher's feet for being gay (despite the fact he didn't). The issue is that fans still can't shut up about Batnipples and codpieces despite the fact that such imagery has been a part and parcel of comic imagery for decades.
Someone claimed this last review, and I said the same thing: find me a picture of Batman with hard rubber nipples in the comics. Go on. I'll wait....

... ... ... ... Yeah, you didn't find anything either? That's because giant rubber codpieces and rubber nipples WEREN'T in the comics for decades.

The issue is that no-one ever criticises Batman and Robin for its flawed plot or ridiculous stretches in logic, they only ever talk about the fact that Schumacher put nipples on the batsuit.
You must not get out much. THOUSANDS of complaints about Batman & Robin's flawed plot and stupid logic have been argued, by both professionals and fans, endlessly, and often the bat-nipples aren't even mentioned.

But that's the thing. The Bat-nipples are not the "problem" so much as they became the SYMBOL of the problem. The bat-nipples became the symbol of all that is wrong with the Joel Schumacher Batman films. When someone says "bat-nipples", the entire "wrongness" of the movie is summed up. It is like "jumping the shark", "nuking the fridge", and "unobtainium"... pieces of a movie or show that, while not the only problems, came to symbolize the entire flaws of the experience. So, no, the bat-nipples aren't the only problem by a country mile, but they symbolize in one image, one decision, the entirety of the fans displeasure.

Which says a lot about how insecure the fanbase must be that it can happily handle the likes of Wonder Woman and Catwoman appearing in all kinds of fetishy gear...
Again, if Wonder Woman or Catwoman shows up with giant rubber nipples, I would not "happily handle it". I would laugh at it and then complain that the creators were f***ing idiots. And Wonder Woman's leotard is not "fetishy" gear, nor was Catwoman's catsuit originally fetishy gear. They were just plain old COSTUMES. And, well, in the TV show and movies, they are still largley costumes. It was the fanbases that chose to ascribe fetishy characteristics to them.

...yet the minute Batman appears in anything even like an S&M outfit (ignoring the fact that even on a good day, the Batsuit is only a few steps away from outright kink) then everyone throws a collective tantrum and causes a shitstorm that is still being discussed today.
If you can't see the difference between battle armor, Kevlar, full-body plating, functional spandex/lycra, and a design meant to enable mobility and blend into the shadows, and that of an S&M, ball-gagged, bare-chested, leather-jock-strap-wearing sado-masochist sex fiend, you probably need to broaden your horizons, or you had a traumatic experience as a child dressing up as Batman for Halloween.

I mean, let's be honest. The Batman suits in the Shumacher films aren't THAT dissimilar to the Tim Burton Batman films. They're really not. The nipples are a incredibly stupid change, but it's still a very minor one. Batman is no more "fetishy" in the Schumacher films than he is in the older ones, but the bat-nipples, again, became a symbol to express the stupidity of the entire Schumacher approach. They are NOT the end-all-be-all criticism, and some fans get confused and think the nipples alone are the problem. Trust me, they're not. Otherwise people would be raving about that episode in the Animated Series where Batman took his shirt off and had *gasp* fully drawn nipples.

Again, the nipples are the "unobtainium" and "Jar-Jar Binks" of the Schumacher films. A symbol of all that went wrong, but not the end of the discussion.
 

maninahat

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Calibanbutcher said:
Never knew the movie was considered bad, because of gay undertones...
I just thought it was bad, because it sucks.
And honestly, I undertstand why a Batman movie should not be gay in any way.
Having Batman turn gay, or making him seem gay in any way brings with it horrible implications about his relationship with all the robins...
Oh I get it. He's gay, so he's also into child grooming right?
 

leviadragon99

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Yeah, I had a feeling the camp aspect was going to come up here.

I personally dislike the movie but not as much as some people and certainly not due to any supposed gay influence, aspects or aesthetic.

Though I will admit that I preffer the grim and gritty perspective on the Batman mythos to the sillier forms so the bright and colourfull approach does irritate me a little on that front, which I could have maybe got past if the film wasn't such a trainwreck in every other regard. The Villains REALLY get the shaft in terms of being anything more than a gimmick, even more so than the previous Schumacher effort.

I don't think it's unreasonble to have expectations from BTAS of a certain amount of pathos, tragedy or other complexity from Batman villains.
 

FirebirdXR

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Kinda of expected The Amazing Spider-Man among the posters that Bob thinks are genuinely bad movies....

I kinda enjoyed Batman & Robin, because it was just plain hilarious.
 

Kitsune Hunter

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Good points Bob, but there's still a couple of things i can't forgive about the film, the godawful puns and of course, A BAT CREDIT CARD!!!!!!!!

 

Hitchmeister

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I was alternately amused and annoyed by the slow loving pans over Clooney and O'Donnell's armored Bat-Nipples, molded thongs and skin tight suits and the lack of same attention to detail in the way Alicia Silverstone's costume was displayed. I would have preferred long slow pans over her in skin-tight rubber. It's easy to write that off as Schumacher's sexual preference, but I can't help wonder if the MPAA didn't have a hand in that editing decision. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a double standard on those costumes could have resulted in a higher rating for sexualizing the woman while the men were okay.

A bigger problem was the stupid writing and groan-inducing dialog.
 

JimB

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DustyDrB said:
Calibanbutcher said:
Having Batman turn gay, or making him seem gay in any way brings with it horrible implications about his relationship with all the Robins...
I'm pretty sure gay men can be around boys without molesting them.
Quoted for truth.

Me, I kind of hated the Bat-nipples, but for their absurdity. I mean, some dude was hired to sculpt a thick, rubber man-suit with bat-themed decals on it, and that dude had to deliberately drop some globs of latex onto the chest pieces and sculpt them until they became nipples. That's just way too funny for me to be able to take seriously.

But no, the source of my intolerance for this movie is the puns. I am a roleplayer, and I don't know if it's a thing among all roleplayers or just the people where I live, but the roleplayers I know have a marked tendency to crap out puns at every opportunity. I hate them. I hate puns viscerally and violently. They are not funny and, while there are exceptions, they are almost always stupid. They offend my sense of humor and my intellect, and it is offense that I hate.

(I feel like I should post a Nostalgia Critic clip about the Bat-Credit Card, but nah, too easy.)
 

jmarquiso

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Ahem.

X-Men.

By openly gay filmmaker Bryan Singer, starring openly gay actors and including pretty obvious gay overtones (especially X-2).

Very little backlash.

Oh there were some, by some pretty hateful groups that would have shown their ugly head ahead of time.

That being said, I did hear some surpisingly homophobic rants about Superman Returns by a friend of mine, and that took a lot of work to deal with.
 

anthony87

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MorganL4 said:
Aiddon said:
well, let's also be honest: nipples on the Batsuit are stupid. Also, Batman was originally a far darker protagonist in the Golden Age. In the SILVER AGE he was campy like in the show and in the Schumacher movies but going to his roots he was supposed to be a bit more gritty and grim than the average superhero much like the Dark Knight Returns (not its sequel though) or the Nolan movies. Albeit Bob Kane was pretty much a hack whose worst ideas were edited by Bill Finger and Batman did STUPIDLY use a gun in the beginning, but that's how things are. Heck, in the Silver Age Batman was pretty close to being canceled

Anyway, B&R will always be a stupid movie.
While I will agree that bat nipples are stupid......

I do believe that your use of the term "originally" is misplaced. Case and point May 1939's Detective Comics #27



Also, if you read about Bob Kane's original concept for Batman, he was wearing red tights....

Bill Finger, did however convince Kane that a darker look would be best, but overall the original batman was still fairly campy.

Also, I was a little kid when Batman and Robin came out, and despite the fact that even I could recognize the camp, I still enjoyed the film.... Though I can see why adults at the time would not enjoy it....
Isn't that the same Batman who used guns and killed a dude by kicking him in the head so hard he snapped his neck?



Hardly what I'd call "campy"
 

lastjustice

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I am indifferent to Joel Schumacher being gay. Heck I'd didn't even know he was till this review. That's how little I care, as I generally could care less about most people's lives in hollywood off the set.( I still love the Lost boys and Falling down regardless of having learned that.) I just always felt Batman and Robin was meh when I saw it. I still wouldn't put it as my least favorite of the series though. I'd rated Batman, Batman Forever, Batman and Robin, and Batman returns as my order of best to worst. I can't say I ever hated any of these films. I was 17 and off in basic training when this movie first hit theathers. I wanetd to see it, but other guys told me it was as cheesy as Adam West series so I decided to wait till I saw it on video later. I was glad I did.

On side note, Doesn't Mr Freeze's helmet look alot like Megatron's head from the first live action Transformers movie in 2007? Just something I noticed when watching the clips. Sadly Arny was actually a pretty accurate portrayal of Mr Freeze prior to the animated series reimagining him to a much better character.(which splashes of that character cross over still with his backstory.) All freeze did was use an ice gun and make crappy puns about it. He's still honestly the best part of the film as Arnold looked like he was having a great time. Sadly most of the film falls flat from being as enjoyable for all wrong reasons he reaches.