The Big Picture: Depth of a Salesman

DJ_DEnM

My brother answers too!
Dec 22, 2010
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I remembered one of my last and probably my favorite Nintendo Power issue. It was right after E3 2004, there was a lot of coverage about the Nintedo DS, the games, Paper Mario, the new Zelda...It also had coverage of Resident Evil 4 and it's development, and more importantly (to me) it had a whole coverage on the Mega Man collection which I was struggling to beat. Oh Nintendo Power...
 

sinsfire

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uanime5 said:
Yet again Bob ruins a good video by complaining about enforced genders roles without doing basic research.

Firstly the vast majority of the Grimm Fairy Tales are about animals and adventure, rather than a person's place in society. Examples would be Cat and Mouse in Partnership, The Wolf and the Seven Young Kids, Town Musicians of Bremen, and Godfather Death.

Secondly many stories involved royalty marrying common men and women rather than nobles or foreign royalty, something that would have been against the social conversions of the time. If anything they're very progressive.

Thirdly several of the protagonists in the Grimm Fairy Tales are females; such as Cinderella; Rapunzel; Little Snow White; Snow-White and Rose-Red; Mother Hulda; The Girl Without Hands; One-Eye, Two-Eyes, and Three-Eyes; and The Goose Girl. Unlike today where having a main character who isn't male is considered a selling point.

Fourthly while some female characters did need saving (Cinderella, Rapunzel, Little Snow White, The Goose Girl) they don't need to be rescued from monsters but from abusive relatives or servants.

Finally there are some stories where the males need to be rescued by the females; such as The Pink, The Peasant's Wise Daughter, Hansel and Gretel. In other words some Fairy Tales opposed the stereotype that women need to be rescued by men.

I hope that in future Bob will do some actual research rather than condemning everything written before the 1990's as being sexist and enforcing gender roles.
I just... I mean wow. I had to watch this episode again just to make sure you were missing the whole point of that 5 second snip from an almost 6 minute discussion.

I am pretty sure Bob mentioned the Grimm tales as a matter of adults attempting to control the minds and actions of youth. While he specifically mentioned some damsels in distress it isn't in a patriarchal manner nor is it sexist. He doesn't even use the terms damsel in distress. He merely notes that the fairy tales were a way of advising and stearing youth, and he's right.

It doesnt matter if its damnsel in distress or damsel saves the kingdom (or goose or sheep or whatever) it was the idea of guiding youth by way of morals and stories. You took that and made a diatribe about gender and sexism that still has my head spinning. Did you even post this in the right thread? I know there is another Tropes vs. Women thing concerning ICO going on in the gaming forum, did you mean for this to go there?
 

Joos

Golden pantaloon.
Dec 19, 2007
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What is the cartoon at the 4:00 mark called? I remember watching a lot of it as a kid, but I have no recollection what its name is. Help!
 

Symbio Joe

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Dec 7, 2010
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sinsfire said:
uanime5 said:
Yet again Bob ruins a good video by complaining about enforced genders roles without doing basic research.

Firstly the vast majority of the Grimm Fairy Tales are about animals and adventure, rather than a person's place in society.[...]
[...]

I am pretty sure Bob mentioned the Grimm tales as a matter of adults attempting to control the minds and actions of youth. While he specifically mentioned some damsels in distress it isn't in a patriarchal manner nor is it sexist. [...]
Actually Grimms' Tales are an enormous can of worms themselves and the to brothers themselves edited them several times 3 times at least to make them more child friendly. I agree with Beat Writer here when it comes to purpose of the example. While gender roles and morals of the Grimms' Tales are because of the many versions a bit tricky to handle.
 

scw55

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Nov 18, 2009
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Pokemon was my thing. I was 11. I adored the games and trading cards but I drew the line at plushies and plastic. I knew it was cheap and nasty. Why would I want a fake IRL Pokedex or some rubbish portable game in a Pokeball?

Granted the games came before the show, but it was the show that got me interested.
 

Nalgas D. Lemur

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Nov 20, 2009
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SnakeoilSage said:
That's one hell of a bombshell to drop on a kid, it affected me more than the death of Superman (seriously, who cared about Superman in the early 90's).
I read most of the Death and Return of Superman storyline back then, but pretty much only because my barber had them. He always kept some comics around with the magazines and newspapers, usually some subset of whichever Superman/Batman-related ones were current (but occasionally other stuff like Green Lantern too), presumably to keep kids entertained/quiet. I re-read the entire thing a few years ago in TPB form, and it's aged terribly. Not that I had thought it was amazing to begin with, but I hadn't remembered it being downright awful like that...

Redlin5 said:
*glances at Original Star Fox Nintendo Power inherited from my sister*
Unless someone damaged or got rid of it, I think I still have the papercraft Arwing from one of the 1993 issues. It's pretty sweet.
 

Daaaah Whoosh

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Jun 23, 2010
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You know, Bob, they say we never truly die, so long as someone remembers us. You can keep that magazine alive simply by doing your job, the job it gave you. That way, its impact will still be felt by people who never even read the damn thing, like me.
Anyway, good show as ever. This continues to be one of my favorite shows on the Escapist, tied closely with Zero Punctuation.
 

Itchi_da_killa

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Jun 5, 2012
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The Simon's Quest issue was my first and maybe the most special because Simon's Quest is a favorite of mine. I'm not feeling the "vacuum" like a lot of people I know who are talking about it.
 

Xman490

Doctorate in Danger
May 29, 2010
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It sounds like Bob was sobbing at the end of this. Granted, it makes sense because our Bob loves his Mario games.

I feel sad about it too, since Nintendo Power had content including guides (some issues being entirely guides, I think) and mailbox sections:
I'll remember the one about Mario Party 1 and how it explained all the minigames on Minigame Island and suggested some "drinking games."
I still have the Nintendo Power strategy guides for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Pokemon Crystal, and New Super Mario Bros.
I still have a copy of the Super Mario Sunshine pre-release Nintendo Power that had a nice deal for the game, a memory card, a controller, the player's guide (I lost), and a year-long subscription. I have a Youtube video about it and may show off the others too.
 

faefrost

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Jun 2, 2010
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MowDownJoe said:
faefrost said:
Funny thing about that de-regulation that led to that huge surge of childrens tv shows designed to sell kids stuff. That effect of it was really very transitory. It would make a good Big Picture episode to actually look at the various standards for tv programing for kids over the years. Starting with why kids cartoons were pretty much limited to Saturday morning before noon. and how it all evolved as a result of regulatory meddling.

But here's the weird thing about that de-regulation, and that wild west of animated toy pimps that it spawned. It was very very short lived. Look a little wider. There was some craziness for a few years in the 80's. Say 82 to 87-88. But then it all went away. It was self correcting market. As you saw with the Transformers movie, people and in particular kids didn't buy it. Don't forget shortly after that surge of kids shows selling little blogs of plastic, we suddenly started to see a new wave of what can best be described as quality shows. Stuff like Disneys afternoon wave of Ducktales and Tailspin and Darkwing Duck and Chip and Dales Rescue Rangers and Gummi Bears, etc etc. Shows like Fraggle Rock. And then the surge of things like Nickolodean, Disney Channel and Cartoon Network. That same de-regulation that brought those massive toy commercials into existence just as quickly killed them off as the networks figured rather than wasting whole hours selling somebody else's product, they could actually sell their own, and get other people to pay them for commercials while doing it. Instead of the product being a He Man plastic toy. The product was now teh media company itself. Disney, Nik, etc. It's a model Sesame Street had been using since the 60's. And it is the same business model that Disney or any media company has long operated safely and successfully under.
I don't think those types of shows died out in the 80s like you suggested. I still remember Mighty Max (as crappy as it was) and Beast Wars: Transformers.
By the beginning of the 90's they were pretty much gone. Yeah some of the key successful properties still had shows. But even Beast War's Transformers is a great example of the shift. The show was less about directly selling toys (virtually none of the show designs worked well as toys, and by the second series they had all but abandoned the toy lines), and more about the property itself. The studio that made it wasn't really a toy driven studio. They made reBoot and Starship Troopers. With the exception of certain Japanese imports (Pokemon), most US produced shows were no longer being produced specifically by or for the toy companies. (Power Rangers weirdly went the other way. It was a cheap Japanese import show that ended up driving toy sales and toy imports. It wasn't made to sell toys specifically. At least not originally. That was an unintended happy outcome).

Most of the companies that had been producing the toy shows and the toy companies that had been funding them were in deep trouble. Filmation went under. Mattel was almost driven under (in part because of the escalating costs of the HeMan movie, another worthy Big Picture subject). Rankin Bass (Thundercats, Silverhawks, Tigersharks, in addition to the classic Rudolf, Frosty and Bilbo Baggins) went under, and their properties were absorbed by Warner Brothers. DIC found far better success making non toy shows such as Inspector Gadget and Captain Planet. Once again pushing their own brands rather than the toy companies. By the 90's Disney had absorbed them.

And key in all of this. Disney, Warner Brothers, Nikolodean etc all had far stronger interests in their own brands and own brand cohesion then they did in pimping plastic toys, at least in the non subtle way of the 80's shows. (Disney in particular is the true master at selling stuff to kids. Just look at anything with the word Princesses. They just do it with a greater degree of subtlety.)
 

sinsfire

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Nov 17, 2009
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Joos said:
What is the cartoon at the 4:00 mark called? I remember watching a lot of it as a kid, but I have no recollection what its name is. Help!
If you mean the dinosaurs in clothes its called dinosaucers. If you mean the trucks with teeth I am trying to figure that out as well
 

sinsfire

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Rakor said:
Was that a bunch of dinosaurs in superhero outfits?

I smell an episode.
The show was called dinosaucers and i could be wrong but i think bob already discussed it in one of the older cartoon episodes, try a search and see what you come up with.

Edit, just searched: check out the episode titled "Last Starr" http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/5711-Last-Starr
 

Timnoldzim

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May 19, 2012
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faefrost said:
MowDownJoe said:
faefrost said:
Funny thing about that de-regulation that led to that huge surge of childrens tv shows designed to sell kids stuff. That effect of it was really very transitory. It would make a good Big Picture episode to actually look at the various standards for tv programing for kids over the years. Starting with why kids cartoons were pretty much limited to Saturday morning before noon. and how it all evolved as a result of regulatory meddling.

But here's the weird thing about that de-regulation, and that wild west of animated toy pimps that it spawned. It was very very short lived. Look a little wider. There was some craziness for a few years in the 80's. Say 82 to 87-88. But then it all went away. It was self correcting market. As you saw with the Transformers movie, people and in particular kids didn't buy it. Don't forget shortly after that surge of kids shows selling little blogs of plastic, we suddenly started to see a new wave of what can best be described as quality shows. Stuff like Disneys afternoon wave of Ducktales and Tailspin and Darkwing Duck and Chip and Dales Rescue Rangers and Gummi Bears, etc etc. Shows like Fraggle Rock. And then the surge of things like Nickolodean, Disney Channel and Cartoon Network. That same de-regulation that brought those massive toy commercials into existence just as quickly killed them off as the networks figured rather than wasting whole hours selling somebody else's product, they could actually sell their own, and get other people to pay them for commercials while doing it. Instead of the product being a He Man plastic toy. The product was now teh media company itself. Disney, Nik, etc. It's a model Sesame Street had been using since the 60's. And it is the same business model that Disney or any media company has long operated safely and successfully under.
I don't think those types of shows died out in the 80s like you suggested. I still remember Mighty Max (as crappy as it was) and Beast Wars: Transformers.
By the beginning of the 90's they were pretty much gone. Yeah some of the key successful properties still had shows. But even Beast War's Transformers is a great example of the shift. The show was less about directly selling toys (virtually none of the show designs worked well as toys, and by the second series they had all but abandoned the toy lines), and more about the property itself. The studio that made it wasn't really a toy driven studio. They made reBoot and Starship Troopers. With the exception of certain Japanese imports (Pokemon), most US produced shows were no longer being produced specifically by or for the toy companies. (Power Rangers weirdly went the other way. It was a cheap Japanese import show that ended up driving toy sales and toy imports. It wasn't made to sell toys specifically. At least not originally. That was an unintended happy outcome).

Most of the companies that had been producing the toy shows and the toy companies that had been funding them were in deep trouble. Filmation went under. Mattel was almost driven under (in part because of the escalating costs of the HeMan movie, another worthy Big Picture subject). Rankin Bass (Thundercats, Silverhawks, Tigersharks, in addition to the classic Rudolf, Frosty and Bilbo Baggins) went under, and their properties were absorbed by Warner Brothers. DIC found far better success making non toy shows such as Inspector Gadget and Captain Planet. Once again pushing their own brands rather than the toy companies. By the 90's Disney had absorbed them.

And key in all of this. Disney, Warner Brothers, Nikolodean etc all had far stronger interests in their own brands and own brand cohesion then they did in pimping plastic toys, at least in the non subtle way of the 80's shows. (Disney in particular is the true master at selling stuff to kids. Just look at anything with the word Princesses. They just do it with a greater degree of subtlety.)
Damn, this is some interesting stuff. Thank you for sharing.
 

Hutzpah Chicken

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Mar 13, 2012
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Well, Internet killed the Magazine Star.

I started subscribing to Nintendo Power waaaaay after Nintendo was cool. I think it was right before they released the Wii, but I still didn't have Internet. At this point, I really don't play console games anymore, so Nintendo Power seems really dated and not useful.
 

vxicepickxv

Slayer of Bothan Spies
Sep 28, 2008
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Ah, the good old days of Howard and NEStor... and the one they did in Gamepro.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Bob and I are around the same age. When you're talking with an audience that is very familiar with your subject material, it's a lot easier to convey the message.

I think the most interesting thing about Nintendo Power was, if you sent them a letter with questions from a game, they would mail you back an answer. I did this in the early 90's(91-92) for Final Fantasy II(Because we didn't know it was 4 back then). My brother and I were shocked when we got a well typed answer mailed from Nintendo Power to us. It was a very nice touch for subscribers.

I picked up Nintendo Power at issue 2, and Gamepro at issue 3, so I remember the changes to the magazines from years ago. Now I don't even bother looking at them anymore. I will remember the good stuff from Nintendo Power, but I won't actually miss it.
 

Mikodite

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Dec 8, 2010
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ares556600 said:
No bob, you would still be a fat isolated loser pandering on about things people don't care about regardless of if the magazine existed or not. You didn't need the idea of a "gamer culture" as you say, drilled into your head with a magazine to allow you to justify the fact that you are a "fat isolated loser pandering on about things people don't care about". You would've been the same exact person regardless.
Before the Internet it was easier to live in a sheltered bubble than it is now as a kid's only connection with others would have been at school or in the neighbourhood, and 'geek culture' wasn't as saturated as it is now, so there was a possibility that not only did they not share his interests (ie "pandering about things people don't care about") but maybe bullied him over them. That magazine served to prove that others shared his interests, even if he didn't know them personally, thus demonstrating that there were people that were "pandering about thing people don't care about."

The fact that there are people who "pander things people don't care about" is enough to trash your argument because there are people who do care (or are you going to argue that Bob isn't a person?). Without that YANA proof he would have went another way, possibly become even more isolated or more ashamed of who he was. You underestimate the power media has over us. It won't make us corporate drones, but every piece in large numbers forms and shapes the culture that they were brought from.

Course, your probably a troll whose just going to call me a fat isolated cow for saying that.

As for Nintendo Power... I have their issue 114 centerfold on my bedroom wall! It was their Ocarina of Time one with Link and Sheik fighting monsters on Death Mountain. Epic! Those mags did play a role in my childhood, but I felt that I outgrew them and am not that sad to see them go.