Heh, a wanderer after my own heart; I was going to say the same exact thing. Yoda even said something to that effect: "A prophecy that misread, could have been". He realized far too late that "perfect order" is not "balance".BehattedWanderer said:
The Big Picture: Destined for Disappointment, Part 1
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
Stephen Chow has made several movies where his character starts off as a "bad guy" or not really someone you would want to support and goes through trials coming up as good in the end. My favourite movie of his is God of Cookey, a parody of cooking shows and Iron Chef where a TV chef is usurped by his business partner and "wins back from the streets" by teaming up with a gang of street food hawkers. It also has the Eighteen Bronzemen who beat the snot out of him, I have never laughed so much https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8UTANHpsV0
There is also "Love on Delivery" where a lowly delivery boy wins the day by not fighting. The "master" he is training with is just ripping him off and doesn't actually train him. He wins by luck in a Garfield mask and has to "train" not to fight, just to get through three rounds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4-Lqj_dlDU
Stephen Chow has also starred in a version of "Journey to the West" where crotch fires get stamped out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lZNkOS4S6k and is remaking it as a trilogy (at the same time as another team is doing it), which is the closest to the "destiny" story.
There is also "Love on Delivery" where a lowly delivery boy wins the day by not fighting. The "master" he is training with is just ripping him off and doesn't actually train him. He wins by luck in a Garfield mask and has to "train" not to fight, just to get through three rounds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4-Lqj_dlDU
Stephen Chow has also starred in a version of "Journey to the West" where crotch fires get stamped out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lZNkOS4S6k and is remaking it as a trilogy (at the same time as another team is doing it), which is the closest to the "destiny" story.
so, bob, what you're saying is that destiny is the narrative shaky-cam of modern-day film making?
The comedic value I obtained from this episode was greatly enhanced by pretending that every time he mentioned "Destiny", he was talking about a stripper. Sick of seeing it trotted out indeed.
No, he balanced it at the end of 3. There were a lot more Jedi than Sith. Balance means equal numbers. The prophecy dictated that he kill children, lots of them.OrokuSaki said:
The Matrix is more of an equation, the Architect even says as much. With Neo as the remainder of an almost perfect equation, the way to 'balance' it would be to give him a choice to protect the future of mankind, like every other remainder did. But there was a difference because Neo chose what every other 'Chosen One' didn't. So I am inclined to agree with probability, and not because of some Master Plan. Neo had choices. He chose the white rabbit, he asked the driving question. He chose to go back into a suicide mission. He chose to fight back. While the Oracle did influence her, she also showed him there is always another way. Another choice.Rakschas said:
I am a fan of the recent Star Trek movies, because I like the alternate interpretations of the characters. I like that Kirk is trying to prove himself, but since he lacked that 'father figure', he screwed up. But when it came down to a situation, he stepped up.
I think there is an interesting twist, Kirk who never knew his father is looking for someone to look up to. Spock's father still lives and could have advised him, but since he knows that Spock Prime has experience he does not, he is the LOGICAL choice for him to turn to. So the guy with no-one to look up to still has no-one. He must become his own man. Spock has the benefits of wisdom (his father) and experience (Spock Prime).
Well I mean. There main "boots on the ground" as it where, didn't turn into complete jokes. Stormtrooprs can't hit shit, clone troopers and Droids can. Yeah I'd say that that's "something."ZZoMBiE13 said:
Aside from being merely lazy and cliché, destiny also seems like an incredibly STUPID trope as well. I'm not just talking about the fact that it's total BS and doesn't exist, neither do talking turtles, but it also robs the protagonist of any authority or control over what happens during the movie rendering them a puppet to greater forces.
It also seems like a way for the story to essentially spoil itself for the audience, though in some cases (such as with prequels) that may not matter. When the destined event occurs, it's not amazing or exciting because we were expecting it, waiting for it to happen.
Really I can't think of a reason why any story would ever want to include destiny in any form, it just seems like pure negative from any angle.
It also seems like a way for the story to essentially spoil itself for the audience, though in some cases (such as with prequels) that may not matter. When the destined event occurs, it's not amazing or exciting because we were expecting it, waiting for it to happen.
Really I can't think of a reason why any story would ever want to include destiny in any form, it just seems like pure negative from any angle.
Alright, colour me intrigued. I saw where this was going about people misinterpreting the heroes journey and lazy screenwriting, I'm guessing we've both been reading Film Crit Hulk's new book, but I'm interested in seeing how you relate it to the star wars prequels. I understand about Anakin being destined to go to the dark side but I haven't revisited the films in a long time I can't really remember a lot of the specifics. I don't want to revisit them so I'm sure your video will be interesting.
I thought you were going to say X-Men, all the characters work to be important. Another thing, there are only three Star Wars movies, with Disney making the first new one in decades.
Urgh yeah, whenever someone is "the chosen one" the story usually lost me.
Like naruto, which recently dropped the ball through the core of earth which is impressive given the trainwreck it turned into so far.
It's a prime example of someone writing themselves into a corner, losing sight of their goal and then using destiny to try and badly fix their story.
Like naruto, which recently dropped the ball through the core of earth which is impressive given the trainwreck it turned into so far.
It's a prime example of someone writing themselves into a corner, losing sight of their goal and then using destiny to try and badly fix their story.
I"m not so sure he was set to hate it from the start. He saw the designs like the rest of us a few months ago and actually liked them to a degree. He didn't like the April casting or what they did to the Shredder but he hadn't thrown it to the wind. I think his main issue right now is what they are seeming to do with the origin story. I follow him on Twitter and up until the trailer release he was cautiously optimistic about it.shrekfan246 said:
As a writer, I absolutely hate the "Hero's Journey", or more precisely: despise what people read into it. The monomyth is an analytical tool, as in: meant to be applied to a story that was already written. It is an observation, not a creative crutch. This is somewhat similar to the three-act-structure - yes, if you look hard enough you will find it in every story, but that's the point: No matter how hard you try to avoid it, you will ALWAYS include it. There's no point in consciously pursuing a three-act-structure because you will always have one. It's 100% placebo as far as writing techniques go. The same applies for the monomyth, only that people in their attempt to imitate what they believe defines it often make their stories worse rather than better.
And after Bob does his piece on the prequels he's them going to explain what the original Star Wars is actual about, if it's not set around the Hero Journey, right?
-M
-M
There are differences between things being somewhat interconnected, even in a rather cliched manner, and going over the top to have them be destined or engineered that way.Steve the Pocket said:
Just take TMNT as an example. The most recent Nikolodeon TV incarnation adds a bit more inter connectivity than some previous stories. Yeah shredder is now secretly Karai's father. Yeah the Krang now have some specific connection with April and her father, which is how and why the meet the Turtles. But it stops there. The Turtles remain an unknown unplanned accident that ultimately undoes all plans. Just as in the first Spider-Man movie it was an interesting connection that the lab where Peter Parker was bitten was an Oscorp lab. But it still remains that Peter and the Spider meeting were a simple accident of fate. Random chance. Just a kid stumbling into something way over his head. Whereas in the newer movies Peters Dad is in some way involved in creating Super beings. Peter was in some way the result of that? It's that difference between random fate and downright planned destiny. And in many of thee cases it's awful.
The problem with this line of thinking is that it completely ignores the context of race in Hollywood. Recasting a white guy for a black one doesn't exist in an industry that constantly does just that.ccdohl said:
Furthermore, Heimdall being black doesn't change his character at all, while white washing Shredder actually changes who the character is.
Hmm, curious to see how you defend the Prequel Trilogy.
I guess if you scrape away the layers of fluff and nonsense and fill in a lot of the plot holes you do have a story about a little boy who keeps being told that it's his destiny to act as "The Chosen One" to bring balance to the Force, only to have the very teachers continually keep him at arms length and actively impede his training.
Add to that a more seductive master who promises not only answers and guidance but the power to embrace his destiny.
Yeah, I can see how there's a core of a great "chosen one" narrative there.
The problem with those movies from a storytelling viewpoint however is that they all fall into this structure of "these thing happened because they have to happen."
Padme and Anakin fall in love less because they have any on screen chemistry or any visible romantic feelings but because they have to in order for Luke & Leia to exist.
The Jedi fly in the face of all conceivable logic to become generals in the Clone Armies of the Republic because Obi Wan Mentions to Luke that they fought together in the Clone Wars.
Anakin starts to give into the dark side because...well we're told he's kept at arms length by the Jedi Council and that Obi Wan treats him like a child but we never actually see much evidence of it on screen. He just has to be a brooding little ball of anger and frustration because he has to be Darth Vader.
Speaking of which. Anakin goes from Defender of the Republic and Jedi Master to child murdering Sith Lord with almost no coercion. It just happens because it has to happen in order for the OT status quo to be set.
I guess if you scrape away the layers of fluff and nonsense and fill in a lot of the plot holes you do have a story about a little boy who keeps being told that it's his destiny to act as "The Chosen One" to bring balance to the Force, only to have the very teachers continually keep him at arms length and actively impede his training.
Add to that a more seductive master who promises not only answers and guidance but the power to embrace his destiny.
Yeah, I can see how there's a core of a great "chosen one" narrative there.
The problem with those movies from a storytelling viewpoint however is that they all fall into this structure of "these thing happened because they have to happen."
Padme and Anakin fall in love less because they have any on screen chemistry or any visible romantic feelings but because they have to in order for Luke & Leia to exist.
The Jedi fly in the face of all conceivable logic to become generals in the Clone Armies of the Republic because Obi Wan Mentions to Luke that they fought together in the Clone Wars.
Anakin starts to give into the dark side because...well we're told he's kept at arms length by the Jedi Council and that Obi Wan treats him like a child but we never actually see much evidence of it on screen. He just has to be a brooding little ball of anger and frustration because he has to be Darth Vader.
Speaking of which. Anakin goes from Defender of the Republic and Jedi Master to child murdering Sith Lord with almost no coercion. It just happens because it has to happen in order for the OT status quo to be set.