The Big Picture: Destined for Disappointment, Part 2

seditary

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I personally subscribe to the camp of Anakin being the chosen one since by the end, he destroys both entrenched philosophies leaving Luke alone to find inner force balance by embracing both Light and Dark and creating his own order.

Both the Jedi and the Sith were wrong.
 

SnowWookie

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In a very meta way, anyone who watched this was destined for disappointment.

I'm normally a big fan of Bob's and usually he's pretty on the money (except for Pain & Gain, I can only assume drugs were involved).

But here he's just flat out wrong.

Anakin *is* the Chosen One. He *does* fulfill his destiny and the prequels are still as dumb as ever. The only way Bob's idea makes any sense is if you ignore the original trilogy (but if you allow that, then The Hobbit can be considered the story of a boring dinner party)
 

Callate

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It's an interesting interpretation, but I think it's probably giving Lucas too much credit. At best, I think he probably sees it as one more "the prophecy is true, but horrifically misread by those attempting to bring about/prevent it" yarn: bringing "balance to the force" doesn't mean some sort of creating harmony, but rather wiping the Jedi out until there are no more Jedi than there are Sith. (And that's a kind of a lame, crappy yarn, but I suspect that's what was intended, sadly.)
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Destiny should be something you do but with conflict with yourself. Being born due to destiny is boring, because your told to do it. There is no choice or conflict. Its boring. The turtles were born and trained and fighting crime became their thing due to code etc they could have become criminals or whatever. Its about character. Saying Spiderman was born to destiny is dumb because it takes out the accident thing and finding your way and your path in life. An with Star Wars, i guess Aniken saw himself as a good guy, a hero, though his path changed which you would think was the wrong one. But that turn to the darkside is what made the destiny happen. Its a great story,its becoming a baddie that makes the goodies win. Something that if their was a better writer and director would have made for an awesome movie.
 

Nimcha

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This has occurred to me before and is a reason why Episode III is my favourite of them all.
 

daibakuha

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Saltyk said:
I always figured the whole "Balance to the Force" was the Jedi misreading the prophecy.

At the start of the prequels, there were hundreds of Jedi and maybe three Sith.
Sound balanced?

At the end there were just two of each.
That's balance.

Now, one could argue that the Dark Side was in power, so it wasn't balanced. But the Light Side had been in power for an unknown amount of time. Thus, the Dark Side being in power was bringing balance to the Force.

Also, Luke is Anakin's son, and he found a balance between Light and Dark. Thus, true balance in the Force.

So, yeah, that was always my take on it. I do like seeing the movies as a deconstruction of the "Destiny" Trope, though.
seditary said:
I personally subscribe to the camp of Anakin being the chosen one since by the end, he destroys both entrenched philosophies leaving Luke alone to find inner force balance by embracing both Light and Dark and creating his own order.

Both the Jedi and the Sith were wrong.

People are still getting this wrong after I explained it twice now in both this thread and the one last week.

BRINGING BALANCE TO THE FORCE IS NOT ABOUT A BALANCE BETWEEN LIGHT AND DARK. THE DARK SIDE IMBALANCES THE FORCE, WHEN IT'S GONE THE FORCE IS IN BALANCE.
 

immortalfrieza

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daibakuha said:
Saltyk said:
I always figured the whole "Balance to the Force" was the Jedi misreading the prophecy.

At the start of the prequels, there were hundreds of Jedi and maybe three Sith.
Sound balanced?

At the end there were just two of each.
That's balance.

Now, one could argue that the Dark Side was in power, so it wasn't balanced. But the Light Side had been in power for an unknown amount of time. Thus, the Dark Side being in power was bringing balance to the Force.

Also, Luke is Anakin's son, and he found a balance between Light and Dark. Thus, true balance in the Force.

So, yeah, that was always my take on it. I do like seeing the movies as a deconstruction of the "Destiny" Trope, though.
seditary said:
I personally subscribe to the camp of Anakin being the chosen one since by the end, he destroys both entrenched philosophies leaving Luke alone to find inner force balance by embracing both Light and Dark and creating his own order.

Both the Jedi and the Sith were wrong.

People are still getting this wrong after I explained it twice now in both this thread and the one last week.

BRINGING BALANCE TO THE FORCE IS NOT ABOUT A BALANCE BETWEEN LIGHT AND DARK. THE DARK SIDE IMBALANCES THE FORCE, WHEN IT'S GONE THE FORCE IS IN BALANCE.
To put it simply, people are going with the balance between Light and Dark regardless of what Lucas says because don't give a rat's ass about Luca's explanation. Not only does it make zero sense by definition, it's extremely poor writing besides. Besides, if the writer has to actually tell people what they intended with their work because it wasn't in any way even implied in the actual material, it's basically the writer just making crap up after the fact to explain a plot hole.
 

Do4600

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The force isn't ying and yang, it isn't balanced by having two dark sith and two light jedi, the balance is when the sith no longer exist. The "sides" of the force are really about temperance and intemperance, or moderation and excess. This is why Yoda is worried when Luke goes to save his friends, that he isn't in control of his emotions. When they say bring balance to the force, they mean when temperance is restored. Anakin fulfilled the prophesy by killing the emperor in the end, the jedi council just didn't realize how the prophesy would be fulfilled.

The prophesy story arc is six movies long, but the story arc that assumes that Anakin will be a jedi is three movies long, that's really what the prequels are about, the prophesy that the chosen one will be a jedi. The next three movies moves that arc to the background, of how Anakin eventually decides to sacrifice himself which brings the force to balance. Which is brilliant directing on the part of NOT GEORGE LUCAS. We see Anakin cut Luke's hand off right before Luke decides to sacrifice himself to prevent himself from joining the dark side and we see Luke cut Anakin's hand off right before he decides to sacrifice himself to prevent Luke's death. Think about this, for all intents and purposes Anakin saw Luke kill himself and then in the next movie Anakin kills the emperor to prevent him from killing luke. Obviously he's gone through a huge character change, he barely reacts in the one instance and then in the next he kills himself to prevent it.
 

Darth_Payn

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Well, count me among the few who don't hate the Prequel Trilogy and want Lucas drawn and quartered for it. Sure they have flaws, but what doesn't? Although, Bob did do a lot of bashing them in his explanation for its subversion of the Destiny and Chosen One tropes. I did like the group gasp sound effect. What a silly meatbag!
 

paragon1

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See, here's the thing. Anakin did bring balance back to the Force. He did just did it by killing everyone. I mean, who is in charge and a massive part of the Republic at the start? The Sith? Hell no, the Jedi have had uncontested dominance of Force Use and a Galactic government backing them up for a thousand years. Ol' Palpy had to have spent what was probably the better part of his entire life subverting that. Why did the idiots think "bringing balance to the Force" would be good for them?

Balance implies equality, and for the Force to be balanced the Dark side and Light side would need to be equally strong. Vader made them that way by killing Palpatine and then dying himself, essentially wiping away the last of the old order.

This reading doesn't work perfectly obviously since Luke and Leia are still around. Much like my copy of Episode II, I'm not really sure what to do with it.
 

Lonewolfm16

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To be fair to Hollywood, prophesied fate and chosen heroes have been with humanity since about as long as we have a recorded history, and have been a important part of our stories just as long. I mean, many Greek stories are about how pointless fighting fate is and how Seers are always right, many Norse stories are about how your life is destined to end at one point so you ought to be brave and die a glory death rather than die like a coward, Indian stories are usually all about how you can't fight your dharma and how you must fulfill your caste and role no matter what (see: Ramayana), Christianity is entirely based on a prophesied savior. Can you blame them for following our cultural heritage instead of adapting to a relatively recent view?
 

Mike Fang

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Okay, I can definitely say that Bob's right in that destiny is an overplayed, overused trope. I'd say not only Hollywood does it too much, a lot of entertainment does it too much. I also think he's got an insightful idea that the Star Wars prequels can be considered an example of how the "destiny" concept and belief can have disastrous results. HOWEVER, I can't agree with the finer points of his analysis in HOW the Star Wars prequels show that. First of all, he says that it's everybody's insistent belief in "The Prophecy" that leads to someone unfit for taking up the role of The Chosen One receiving it. But that's not true; if you think back to the way the Jedi behaved about Anakin, they weren't revering him and celebrating him as The Chosen One. From the very start, they were trying to question, doubt, undermine, second-guess and hamper him every step of the way of him becoming a Jedi. First they try to deny him training as a child under incredibly flimsy-ass reasons. Next, they neglect his emotional well-being while he's going through that angsty teenage period we all go through when our emotions are all fucked up due to hormones and what not. Remember the scene when he goes to Yoda for counseling about his concerns about his mother? Yeah, little green wart just tells him, in so many words, "die, people do, so over it, get." That leads him to turn to the only person offering a sympathetic answer; the bad guy, who puts poison in his ear and seeds of temptation in his mind. Finally, in the end, the Jedi break their own code using the "ends justify the means" excuse and as a result, Anakin just snaps.

I'd say this shows how the "destiny" idea doesn't work, but not in the way Bob showed. It shows that "destiny" is not going to work not simply due to the fact that Anakin wasn't fit for it, but because he wasn't MADE FIT for it. Looking back on the events of the prequel trilogy, I can't help but wonder how Anakin would have turned out if the Jedi had actually been accepting of him and supported him and his training. Yes, he became a whiny, selfish, self-entitled twit, but that might have been because the Jedi seemed determined to undermine his progress at every turn. They had to get his apprenticeship under duress, the council never trusted him, they gave him a seat on the council but not the title that traditionally went with it.

I think the way the Star Wars Prequels show the weakness of Hollywood-style "destiny" plotlines is because it shows just how perfectly circumstances and people would have to fall into place for this particular form of "destiny" to work. People, by their nature, aren't guaranteed to go along with what everyone says HAS to happen. As Bob said, Kung Fu Hustle did a good job of turning the "destiny" idea on its head by having the hero find out his path to destiny wasn't exactly what he expected it to be, so he turns away from it, only to instead discover the true path to the destiny he wanted. And again, as Bob said, the original Star Wars movies showed how Luke became a true Jedi by DEFYING what everybody said was his destiny; he refused to follow Yoda and Obi Wan's path and went to save his friends and he defied the Emperor when the Emperor told him it was his destiny to strike down his father and replace him as the Emperor's majordomo. Also, I can't help but point out another mistake: Luke did, in fact, beat Vader in a duel, but he refused to kill him while he was down, instead drawing out the good in Vader to overthrow the Emperor.

Destiny plotlines seem to work best when the characters don't actively know about any sort of prophecy that they're supposed to be bringing about. When they do, you get, well, like Bob said, characters who come across as these perfect snowflakes with no flaws, because every choice they make is the "right" one. If I can be honest, I find the concept of destiny period a rather questionable one at best. But done right, it can make for interesting storylines. But the number of times Hollywood has managed to make that happen, as of late, could probably be counted on one hand.
 

Redd the Sock

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Not an out of line theory, but not all accurate. I mean, I'm not sold that the Jedi order saw or treated Anikin as the "chosen one" in the second movie, particularly since they saddled him with guard duty. It was Qui Gon and Obi Wan's thing for sure, but Yoda seemed doubtful, and even in the 3rd movie Mace Windu didn't give him his full trust, even though by then he was at least a war hero. As the audience, we never got the full prophecy, or any indication of how serious anyone buy Qui Gon took it. It's all valid, but based on suposition more than on screen evidence. On the other hand, not listening to dumb prophecies was pretty much the point of part 3. EU material suggesting that Anikin ignored a larger destiny which in turn lead to things going south is best forgotten.

As for Luke, his disobecience cost him his hand and nearly his life to save people that were getting out on their own before nearly falling to darkness when fighting Vader the second time (if only Palpitine hadn't pointed that out before he crossed the line). And while redeeming Vader was good, it's up for debate as to how important that was in stopping the Empire at that moment (they'd largely been set up to win by that point). Unless you're sold on vader or Palpitine turning things around without the distraction, it's actually surprising how little the "chosen hero" contributed to the second death star battle.
 

Kecunk

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Okay here's my interpretation of the whole starwars big dumb prophecy thing.

See the prophecy isn't that the chosen one will defeat all evil and bring everlasting peace to the galaxy

the prophecy is that the chosen one will "bring balance to the force"

In the New trilogy there are a whole lo of jedi but only a few sith but then Anakin turns evil and kills a whole bunch of jedi so now there are only a few jedi and a few sith and that sounds like balance to me.

so Anakin actually fulfilled the prophecy like he was supposed to it just didn't work out the way the jedi council was expecting.
 

octafish

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Two full clips of talk about destiny and no screen caps of Crispin Glover? For shame Moviebob. For Shame.

Thats's right, I'm octafish and I am your density!
 

Nurb

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"Don't listen to prophecy" or saying "The jedi screwed themselves over by believing prophecy" weren't intentional themes he was trying to convey, they were the result of poor writing, directing, and execution on every level that nothing makes any sense and you could fish just about anything out of there.

Lucas was just never that clever.
 

VoidWanderer

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Sgt. Sykes said:
To be even more ironic: If the SW prequels were so 'smart' with the destiny plot (as in, it turned out not be correct), than the original trilogy messed that up, because Anakin at the end does fulfil his destiny and brings balance to the force by killing the bad guy.

So in this sense, the prequel trilogy is actually smarter and the original is dumbed down for a wider audience...?

And more, the history repeats itself in the official canon sequels, so the prequels are even smarter by predicting how the future will again be messed up by believing in the chosen one!
Actually, I would argue that for people who know what the word 'balance' means the prophecy worked and it highlights the fact that the Dark Side is stronger than the Light Side.

George 'needs to read a dictionary' Lucas said Balance means Light Side destroys the Dark Side. That is not balance that is Genocide with better reasons. For true balance, both Light and Dark must exist. Every single thing in Nature supports this in the Circle of Life analogy from the Lion King.

By falling to the Dark Side and destroying the Old Jedi Order, Anakin brought balance to the force. After centuries of being the 'dominant' aspect of the Force, nearly all Jedi were killed, but the survivors stopped acting. Basic rule of villainy, 'All it takes for Evil to succeed is for Good Men to do nothing'. So the Dark Side won, but the were only dominant for around 25-30 years, and that balances it out... ?

Balance is maintained by Luke by rejecting the Old Order and establishing an order that understands that emotions do not cause someone to go Dark Side. Instead of fighting the Dark Side, trying to reason with them is more common, in theory.

captcha - Most likely

But that is my view on it.