The Big Picture: Destined for Disappointment, Part 2
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
Yeah. I can't believe I need to say this. "Balance to the force" and "Balance of force users." Has never been shown to be linked. If we start with that as a null then daibakuha is correct.Shjade said:
ok ... this will take a while.
First off: The Force is not a person, it is ... well just what it's name says. It is a natural force. Shapeless, directionless, purposeless. It is TWISTED into shape, form and purpose by force users who have the capacity to take this natural energy and twisting it to suit their OWN means. So the whole bringing balance to the force thing? IT DOES NOT MEAN ONLY JEDI! It means either equality between the forces of Jedi and Sith, or both groups extinct. That is how the force becomes balanced: either return it to it's natural state or let there be equal numbers of Jedi and Sith.
This entire theme has been played out like a cycle in the Star Wars EU, but I'm amazed how many people actualy fail to understand it ... in fact if you are to look at the inception of the Jedi and Sith orders you would find your answer to what Balance means in the star wars universe. Allow me to quote:
"The Je'daii Order was formed by colonists on the planet Tython 36,453 years before the Battle of Yavin. Tython has unique properties which allowed these colonists to master the use of the Force. The original Je'daii Order did not differentiate between the use of both 'Light' and 'Dark' Sides of the Force, but believed in the Balance of the Force; in other words, that a Je'daii needed to understand both the Dark and the Light, and use both accordingly.
Eventually, some members of the Order came to see the Dark Side as a path to power, causing a schism. These Dark Je'daii were defeated and exiled, with some eventually fleeing Known Space and heading to the Unknown Regions, where, as Sebastian_H mentions, they found the species known as the Sith. This species was extremely Force-sensitive and capable of providing many recruits to the Dark Jedi's cause, and so the Dark Jedi eventually came to call themselves Sith, after the people they established their rule over. Eventually, the philosophy of the Bogan - or Dark Side - came to be dominated by the ideology of the Sith, though there are plenty of Fallen Jedi who used the Dark Side without themselves being Sith; C'Baoth is an example of this.
After the exile of the Dark Je'daii, several Light Je'daii also left Tython, eventually establishing what came to be known as the Jedi Order. Tython itself eventually lost its central importance as both Light and Dark Jedi learnt to utilise the Force outside of its gravitational field, something that took a great deal of time to learn."
So you see they had right in the begining: both Light and Dark sides are needed for balance. It was those that chose pure Dark that started the imbalance, yes, but both are needed for balance. The original philosophy of the force has been forgoten and Force users have been divided and handicaped into pure light and pure dark. And so a great cycle of wars and death had begun in the galaxy: Sith Empire, Sith Wars, downfall and extermination of the Sith, Jedi ascension and the Republic, massacre of the Jedi by Anakin and the clones, The new empire, downfall of the empire and death of vader and the emperor ... and now a new trilogy will pick up in a universe where the Jedi once again dominate ... so I fully expect a carnage on Yavin and the destruction of the Academy. That is what logicaly follows the cycle. THAT OR Luke finaly breaks the cycle by readopting the original philosophy of the Je'daii and actualy restoring balance to the force.
See ... this cycle has happened so often in the Star Wars timeline there are even theories that the Force allways balances itself. So when there are too many Jedi they become weak, their senses are easier to cloud while the powers of the Sith skyrocket to match the ones of the Jedi: that's how one Sith can outsmart thousads of Jedi in the prequels. Sidious who manipulated an entire universe could not forsee that the rebels will win? Explainable now: Once the Jedi got wiped his powers got in line with the Jedi that were left. In a similar fashion: when the Sith were outnumbering the Jedi and controling much of the universe in the time of the Sith Wars: what logical sense does it make for the Jedi to just sudenly overpower and outsmart them? The Jedi beeing way fewer actualy got stronger: they became able to hold back Several Sith Knights and potentialy hundreds of Sith Padawans, while even regular people (republic troopers) could get kills on Sith force users when logicaly that doesn't make sense. Again: BALANCE. It's sad even the people writing the universe sometimes don;t get it because we are so used to the good guys winning when star wars was allways about how both light and dark need to win for balance to exist. THAT IS THE NATURAL ORDER OF THINGS! EVERYTHING HAS IT'S OPOSITE IN THE FORCES OF NATURE: good vs evil, life vs death, abstinence and control vs raw emotion and abandon, JEDI vs SITH. They need eachother yet they miss the point.
A theory that I find explains things is this: The Force is finite and it is split up evenly: half to the Jedi half to the Sith. When one side outnumbers the other they get weaker because the same power is split up among more people. That is why we see powers fluctuanting like that, that is why the rule is allways changing between Jedi and Sith: because they ignore this simple fact and constantly cause imbalance. BOTH SIDES. (fun aside: if this one is true then taking Luke from the end of A New Hope when he basicaly is the only Jedi in the universe and puting him in the prequels with all that potential power he has ... he could probably blow up a planet with the force (explains Vader's dismisive reaction to the Death Star planet busting power) ... which if i recal corectly was actualy done in the past)
And to the guy quoting that Grand Master Coven book labeled cannon: YOU DO KNOW YOU ARE JUSTIFING ONLY JEDI AS BALANCE USING A BOOK WRITEN BY A JEDI?! DON'T YOU THINK THERE ARE SOME ISSUES OF ... OH IDK: BIAS? CONFLICTING INTERESTS?
I mean of course lett's just act like we can just wipe out half of the force without realising we can't do that ... let's just say that we are the ones who deserve to live as we are superior and we bring balance to the force and all force users who disagree must be purged as they "create an imbalance" and "are not part of the Living Force, part of the cycle of life and death ... even though they live" ... reminds me of a certain famous mustache wearing austrian with a passion for art and a fetish for gasing jews and extending his right hand out ... YES! Grand Master Far Coven=Hitler! And she is a Jedi. Jeesus stop taking everything that hack Lucas vomits up as cannon ... that guy understands shit about what he created and has proven that time and time again.
As for the Jedi good guys ... you do know it's called JEDI Mind Trick right? They invented it. A method to use the Force to manipulate the minds and senses of individuals. Yeeeeeeeah ... I'm actualy on the side of we need the Sith to cull the jedi from time to time. Just for safety.
First off: The Force is not a person, it is ... well just what it's name says. It is a natural force. Shapeless, directionless, purposeless. It is TWISTED into shape, form and purpose by force users who have the capacity to take this natural energy and twisting it to suit their OWN means. So the whole bringing balance to the force thing? IT DOES NOT MEAN ONLY JEDI! It means either equality between the forces of Jedi and Sith, or both groups extinct. That is how the force becomes balanced: either return it to it's natural state or let there be equal numbers of Jedi and Sith.
This entire theme has been played out like a cycle in the Star Wars EU, but I'm amazed how many people actualy fail to understand it ... in fact if you are to look at the inception of the Jedi and Sith orders you would find your answer to what Balance means in the star wars universe. Allow me to quote:
"The Je'daii Order was formed by colonists on the planet Tython 36,453 years before the Battle of Yavin. Tython has unique properties which allowed these colonists to master the use of the Force. The original Je'daii Order did not differentiate between the use of both 'Light' and 'Dark' Sides of the Force, but believed in the Balance of the Force; in other words, that a Je'daii needed to understand both the Dark and the Light, and use both accordingly.
Eventually, some members of the Order came to see the Dark Side as a path to power, causing a schism. These Dark Je'daii were defeated and exiled, with some eventually fleeing Known Space and heading to the Unknown Regions, where, as Sebastian_H mentions, they found the species known as the Sith. This species was extremely Force-sensitive and capable of providing many recruits to the Dark Jedi's cause, and so the Dark Jedi eventually came to call themselves Sith, after the people they established their rule over. Eventually, the philosophy of the Bogan - or Dark Side - came to be dominated by the ideology of the Sith, though there are plenty of Fallen Jedi who used the Dark Side without themselves being Sith; C'Baoth is an example of this.
After the exile of the Dark Je'daii, several Light Je'daii also left Tython, eventually establishing what came to be known as the Jedi Order. Tython itself eventually lost its central importance as both Light and Dark Jedi learnt to utilise the Force outside of its gravitational field, something that took a great deal of time to learn."
So you see they had right in the begining: both Light and Dark sides are needed for balance. It was those that chose pure Dark that started the imbalance, yes, but both are needed for balance. The original philosophy of the force has been forgoten and Force users have been divided and handicaped into pure light and pure dark. And so a great cycle of wars and death had begun in the galaxy: Sith Empire, Sith Wars, downfall and extermination of the Sith, Jedi ascension and the Republic, massacre of the Jedi by Anakin and the clones, The new empire, downfall of the empire and death of vader and the emperor ... and now a new trilogy will pick up in a universe where the Jedi once again dominate ... so I fully expect a carnage on Yavin and the destruction of the Academy. That is what logicaly follows the cycle. THAT OR Luke finaly breaks the cycle by readopting the original philosophy of the Je'daii and actualy restoring balance to the force.
See ... this cycle has happened so often in the Star Wars timeline there are even theories that the Force allways balances itself. So when there are too many Jedi they become weak, their senses are easier to cloud while the powers of the Sith skyrocket to match the ones of the Jedi: that's how one Sith can outsmart thousads of Jedi in the prequels. Sidious who manipulated an entire universe could not forsee that the rebels will win? Explainable now: Once the Jedi got wiped his powers got in line with the Jedi that were left. In a similar fashion: when the Sith were outnumbering the Jedi and controling much of the universe in the time of the Sith Wars: what logical sense does it make for the Jedi to just sudenly overpower and outsmart them? The Jedi beeing way fewer actualy got stronger: they became able to hold back Several Sith Knights and potentialy hundreds of Sith Padawans, while even regular people (republic troopers) could get kills on Sith force users when logicaly that doesn't make sense. Again: BALANCE. It's sad even the people writing the universe sometimes don;t get it because we are so used to the good guys winning when star wars was allways about how both light and dark need to win for balance to exist. THAT IS THE NATURAL ORDER OF THINGS! EVERYTHING HAS IT'S OPOSITE IN THE FORCES OF NATURE: good vs evil, life vs death, abstinence and control vs raw emotion and abandon, JEDI vs SITH. They need eachother yet they miss the point.
A theory that I find explains things is this: The Force is finite and it is split up evenly: half to the Jedi half to the Sith. When one side outnumbers the other they get weaker because the same power is split up among more people. That is why we see powers fluctuanting like that, that is why the rule is allways changing between Jedi and Sith: because they ignore this simple fact and constantly cause imbalance. BOTH SIDES. (fun aside: if this one is true then taking Luke from the end of A New Hope when he basicaly is the only Jedi in the universe and puting him in the prequels with all that potential power he has ... he could probably blow up a planet with the force (explains Vader's dismisive reaction to the Death Star planet busting power) ... which if i recal corectly was actualy done in the past)
And to the guy quoting that Grand Master Coven book labeled cannon: YOU DO KNOW YOU ARE JUSTIFING ONLY JEDI AS BALANCE USING A BOOK WRITEN BY A JEDI?! DON'T YOU THINK THERE ARE SOME ISSUES OF ... OH IDK: BIAS? CONFLICTING INTERESTS?
I mean of course lett's just act like we can just wipe out half of the force without realising we can't do that ... let's just say that we are the ones who deserve to live as we are superior and we bring balance to the force and all force users who disagree must be purged as they "create an imbalance" and "are not part of the Living Force, part of the cycle of life and death ... even though they live" ... reminds me of a certain famous mustache wearing austrian with a passion for art and a fetish for gasing jews and extending his right hand out ... YES! Grand Master Far Coven=Hitler! And she is a Jedi. Jeesus stop taking everything that hack Lucas vomits up as cannon ... that guy understands shit about what he created and has proven that time and time again.
As for the Jedi good guys ... you do know it's called JEDI Mind Trick right? They invented it. A method to use the Force to manipulate the minds and senses of individuals. Yeeeeeeeah ... I'm actualy on the side of we need the Sith to cull the jedi from time to time. Just for safety.
Most of the EU is not canon as far as the movies are concerned.XDSkyFreak said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon
It's like comparing the Marvel Cinematic universe with the main comic book continuity. The Star Wars movies are in continuity with the Star Wars movies and nothing else.
Pretty much that. It's interesting that Bob came up with this whole line of thought and discussion, but it's very clear from the films, themselves, that the "artistic intent" was that the Big Dumb Prophecy was correct all along and that the good guys were just too dumb to understand the actual meaning of the prophecy (although I don't know why, in any context, they would have taken the statements "there are two opposite sides to the force--light and dark" and "the force is going to be balanced" and then concluded "the dark side of the force is going to be destroyed").Palora said:
Furthermore, one can argue that if you ignore the Expanded Universe, at the end of the prequels there are 2 Sith, Vader and Sidious, and 2 Jedi, Yoda and Obi-Wan, truly bringing balance to the force. Always thought "bringing balance to the force" was a stupid idea.Sgt. Sykes said:
Anyway I think Morrowind is the best example of a destiny storyline.
Why? Because some arbitrary dude decided so? Or because Lucas, a man who, like I said, doesn't fully understand his own creation and who had his original movies directed and even written by other people said so (fun fact: Empire was directed and written by other people and is the most beloved SW film. Same for Return of the Jedi)? Personaly I don't give a rats ass for arbitrary bs like this. And the reson I don't and view the SWU as one cohesive whole between movies and main EU timeline is the reason your comparison to the MCU is wrongEddie the head said:
See the MCU was made AFTER the comics. They made their own continuity to not force cinema viewers to go read decades of comics to understand what the hell is going on (even though they fail numerous times to actualy explain WTF is going on and give hints and say things only comic fans will understand).
The Star Wars EU on the other hand was made AFTER the movies as a means to branch out and flesh out the history and background of the universe, as well as give us a peak into what happens after the Empire falls. You get the difference?
MCU: insipired by the comics, takes elements from it and makes it's own thing
EU: Inspired by the movies, exapands and explains and enriches the movies.
That is why as far as I am concerned the movies and the EU main timeline are one continuity, and whatever a dipshit editor or Lucas or the ass-hats at Disney (god those cretins don't understand Star Wars, seriously it's like handing the franchise to the Yoda parody from the Space Balls. You know, the "merchandising, merchandising" guy ... on the bright side they will make the prequels MUCH MUCH MORE WATCHABLE) say.
There's never any indication that the Jedi Council believes Anakin is the chosen one. They let him become a jedi because obi-wan insists on training him because he believed in qui gon. And in part 3, I don't know what to say, he was never like, "oh yeah, I totally meant for Anakin to become my apprentice". In the clone wars cartoon they have sidious acting like the smooth operator MovieBob claims, but that's it.
Also, I have to wonder about the actual balance in the Force as Sidious was able to keep himself hidden. He won the fight with Yoda 'member? Killed almost all the jedi sent after him except Mace, but even then I have my doubts that Mace Windu could have finished him off, it's pretty clear with the lightning he received after his hand was cut off that Sidious was faking the whole time in an effort to force Anakin's hand.
Also, I have to wonder about the actual balance in the Force as Sidious was able to keep himself hidden. He won the fight with Yoda 'member? Killed almost all the jedi sent after him except Mace, but even then I have my doubts that Mace Windu could have finished him off, it's pretty clear with the lightning he received after his hand was cut off that Sidious was faking the whole time in an effort to force Anakin's hand.
Well that was a nice answer. "Nope" and move on. The point of the quote was that the EU was meant to be it's own thing. Just saying it's not doesn't make it so. You could go with the "death of the author" idea and I could see that to a degree. But all you're really doing at this point is arguing form your own credulity and form the consequences. To witch I can only say I don't know how to refute an incredulous stare.XDSkyFreak said:
THIS. I've been thinking this for years. There have always been only 2 or 3 siths for god knows how many years, and the good guys were like thousands... Why the hell did they think that "bringing balance" was another way to say "none for them, all for us"? It was only logical that there would be an epic slaughter of jedis until only 2 remained (Obi-Wan and Yoda).Palora said:
Their fault, really.
I may have phrased myself wrong there, sorry about that. The point I was trying to make is this: any form of art, be it a story, painting, music, etc., finds meaning only when it is taken through the philter of the viewer. And besides major obvious themes (like the struggle for balance between light and dark-side in SW for example) everyone will view things differently. My problem is that, especialy when talking about stories, some people will arbitrarily try to define what is actualy true and what should be ignored and call it cannon. One one hand it is generaly a good ideea to advise your viewers to ignore fan-fics. On the other hand when people who have shown they don't really have a firm grasp on the core concepts of the story and universe I am viewing (like the guy who turned the force from an interesting, misterious energy tying the universe toghether into a bunch of parasitic organism, or a bunch of people unrelated to the original art that just want to make a quick buck by milking nostalgia) and then tell me that 90% of that universe no longer exists anymore because "we said it doesn't", well I'm sorry but that seems stupid. I mean sure, you own the intelectual rights to the art and can basicaly come out and say one day "this is shit and everyone who likes it is shit we will now burn every copy of it", but on the other hand unless we experienced your creation, it would mean nothing. A good painting is just wasted canvas without someone looking at it, and the SW universe is nothing without us talking about it and reading it's stories and watching the movies and shows. And now 90% of all that doesn't matter anymore because some guy said so? ... well, fine ... i guess. If you just want to accept that more power to you. I won't allow other to dictate how I view a form of art however.Eddie the head said:
Also: the star wars cannon is a little diferent: there isn't a clear cannon non-cannon line. Instead there are several levels of cannon. G-cannon(George: aka the movies, the most basic level of the cannon), T-cannon(Television: movies+TV), C-cannon (idk bout the C, maybe Central or Cannon? redundant but nvm. This is the most complex and still cohesive cannon, it is movies+TV+EU timeline, basicaly this is the Holy Grail of Star Wars nerds and what Disney should be looking towards for inspiration), S-cannon (Secondary: spin-off side stories and generaly semi consistent fan fics. This is where the non cannon begins) and N-cannon(Non: self explanatory: what if's, fan fic, generaly wild and crazy and full of conflicts with the upper levels of the cannon).
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Yeah, I was going to say this. It's fine if MovieBob doesn't like the prequels but considering the multiple successful spin-offs, merchandise, video games etc based on those films, it's clear quite a few people like them, myself included. Speak for yourself Bob.Tom_green_day said:
So maybe Im a little confused here but I thought that the Jedi prophecy of "someone returning balance to the force" was in fact Anakin as Darth Vader when he kills Palpatine, throwing him down that pit to his death and banishing the last known remnants of the sith. IMO the reason Vader killed him was far more important then the fact that he did
However in that context "balance" was really a word to destroy a last known splinter faction that had diametrically opposed ideals and philosophy to the Jedi order. What Im really saying is the Jedi's idea of balance was that only their side of Jedi philosophy should exist and all others must cease to be. The phrase "holy war" seems appropriate but that implies that their differences are based around faith in a god/divine power instead of differences in philosophy which they arent
However in that context "balance" was really a word to destroy a last known splinter faction that had diametrically opposed ideals and philosophy to the Jedi order. What Im really saying is the Jedi's idea of balance was that only their side of Jedi philosophy should exist and all others must cease to be. The phrase "holy war" seems appropriate but that implies that their differences are based around faith in a god/divine power instead of differences in philosophy which they arent
Two things
1)Didn't Bob in one video said something about how he didn't like how critics say hack things like "formulaic". While this and the last video was about how he hates how movies use destiny because it's played out?
2)One of the few things I remembered about Episode 1 was that no one on the console wanted Anikin to join the Jedi's. They kept saying he is to old and isn't emotionally stable, ironically we make fun of Anikin in EP2 and 3 for being emotionally unstable. It was Qui-gon who kept going on and on about how he was the chosen one because he was a human who was good at pod racing.
Also I get tired of people saying "Well everyone hates the new trilogy", eh not really I would rather watch Episode 2,3,5 over 1,4,6.
1)Didn't Bob in one video said something about how he didn't like how critics say hack things like "formulaic". While this and the last video was about how he hates how movies use destiny because it's played out?
2)One of the few things I remembered about Episode 1 was that no one on the console wanted Anikin to join the Jedi's. They kept saying he is to old and isn't emotionally stable, ironically we make fun of Anikin in EP2 and 3 for being emotionally unstable. It was Qui-gon who kept going on and on about how he was the chosen one because he was a human who was good at pod racing.
Also I get tired of people saying "Well everyone hates the new trilogy", eh not really I would rather watch Episode 2,3,5 over 1,4,6.