The Big Picture: Gender Games

[coates32]

Also, a few people mentioned 3rd Birthday, and I have this to say. I must be a disgrace to my gender since I loved that game and I didn't have much of a problem with the whole clothing thing (read: I thought it was stupid and moved on), again I just wrote it off as Japan being Japan and me not living there to get it, and that's not the game's fault.

No, I don't think you're a "disgrace to your gender" for liking 3rd Birthday. That would be like me thinking that I'm a disgrace to men for being okay with El Shaddai doing the same thing to its protagonist (who's a pretty boy).

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

Also, a few people mentioned 3rd Birthday, and I have this to say. I must be a disgrace to my gender since I loved that game and I didn't have much of a problem with the whole clothing thing (read: I thought it was stupid and moved on), again I just wrote it off as Japan being Japan and me not living there to get it, and that's not the game's fault.

No, I don't think you're a "disgrace to your gender" for liking 3rd Birthday. That would be like me thinking that I'm a disgrace to men for being okay with El Shaddai doing the same thing to its protagonist (who's a pretty boy).

SWEET!!

I will say when I played El Shaddai I couldn't help but make comparisons to 3rd Birthday when I saw that mechanic, and thought El Shaddai did it better....

 

[cbert]

Mmm... There are different types of games. Do men and women all play the same types of games equally, or do the more sexist games actually have a larger male demographic. I think people are forgetting that some games can be aimed at women, and some aimed at men. Keeping this in mind the marketing departments probably adjust content accordingly.

We're talking about money here. A capitalist system will automatically adjust based upon the desires of its consumer base, so I kind of have a hard time believing that it's some oppressive male regime. The publishers are in it to make money, not keep women down. If their marketing departments have miscalculated then someone will eventually make a game that gets it right, and that company will become more successful, thus fixing the problem. If women really are offended by the games they buy then they should boycott them.

In a capitalist system your money is your vote. If small groups protest something for its insensitivity but that thing still makes money, then it isn't going to change. The only way that there aren't going to be games like DOA Extreme Beach Volleyball is if there isn't a market for it. But I don't think women make up the market for those types of games in the first place, so they can't really stop them. As long as there are horny teenage boys out there that are willing to spend $60 on bouncing virtual mammaries, then someone is going to make that game I'm afraid.

Now, does anyone REALLY think that they can effect a level of social change to the point that teenage boys will no longer be horny and stupid? Good luck with THAT. Lulz. Is it really that big of a deal? I have a hard time buying the idea that it's just video games and other media that cause men to view women as sex objects. It's a pretty culturally and genetically ingrained thing, especially for those who don't live a life of the mind. How can someone respect a woman for her mind when they don't even use their own? Rubes will be rubes, I'm afraid. Yes, I realize that I'm an elitist and I have my reasons, so don't point it out as if it's an argument.

I would agree with the "money is your vote." Often, this is why I don't buy triple-A titles. The indie and art game scene has none of this "feminist problem;" feminists are instead seen as assets, and feminist criticism is useful.

Women might not purchase as many copies of extreme tits volleyball, but the point is moot. We appear to have a lack of Trip-A titles marketed towards a good 42% (and growing) of the market share. That's not just misogynistic, that's bad business.

Publishers may be in it to make money, but I maintain a shred of hope that the Devs are aiming for something higher (maybe art, even?). So I implore them to grow up and make their products worth taking seriously.

EDIT: There remains the underlying problem of the lack of female game creators, which is far, far less than the number of female gamers. There isn't so much of a "male conspiracy" as there is a serious sausage fest in the dev departments.

 

[Blue2]

I haven't thought of that way, I originally thought that feminist yell for the fact that girl charters are dressed to look "sexy" but since you show the comparison between poses from the "I got this" looks from the males and "look at me" looks from the female. Even I think right now some games does over sexualise and value more to games that shows female characters as characters to a story (Examples: Alyx Vance, Jade) and not "LOOK! BOOBIES" but also feminist need to be more clearer and explain at the level of the (stupid, whiny) gamer.
Thank you Bob for another great video.

P.S. Yay, Ponies!

 

[Cesilius]

Outside of gagging down Bob's blatent liberal agenda he made a few good points. It is true that the gaming demographic and the femanist demographic utterly fail at understanding the other. But i think this issue is a little too played out. Frankly the solution is simple, if you are offended by the content of a game then you DON'T BUY THE GAME. You have as much right to not play a game as someone else has to play that game. Developers make these games with characters like these because sex sells. You will NEVER stop certain companies from making characters like these nor should you, It is there right to do so and it is not your right to stop them. The almighty dollar pushes everything in this world, you remove the dollar you remove the "problem." No amount of whining or preaching that your position is "right and just" will solve anything. As long as there is someone willing to buy something, there will be someone out there willing to sell it to them.

 

[Spitfire]

That is an excellent point you've made, Bob.

Unfortunately, most arguments coming from feminist gamers seem to be more along the lines of "Why aren't there moar women in games??", rather than "Why don't women in games have more character?"
The former isn't going to get us anywhere, and it will only lead to having tacked-on female leads, and games pandering to the female demographic. The latter is what truly needs to change in the industry, and every gamer, male or female, will benefit from it.

 

[coates32]

Also, a few people mentioned 3rd Birthday, and I have this to say. I must be a disgrace to my gender since I loved that game and I didn't have much of a problem with the whole clothing thing (read: I thought it was stupid and moved on), again I just wrote it off as Japan being Japan and me not living there to get it, and that's not the game's fault.

No, I don't think you're a "disgrace to your gender" for liking 3rd Birthday. That would be like me thinking that I'm a disgrace to men for being okay with El Shaddai doing the same thing to its protagonist (who's a pretty boy).

SWEET!!

I will say when I played El Shaddai I couldn't help but make comparisons to 3rd Birthday when I saw that mechanic, and thought El Shaddai did it better....

Yeah, I have to agree with you about El Shaddai doing that better, mainly because that guy's paints don't get shredded to shorts (even if it did, I would found it very difficult to be offended). I'm still not sure if I would enjoy 3rd Birthday, due to the games other mechanics.

And to MovieBob's point, I never thought of it that way but I agree with him about there needs to be more variety on of female characters (especially protagonists) expression of body language.

 

[cbert]

Outside of gagging down Bob's blatent liberal agenda he made a few good points. It is true that the gaming demographic and the femanist demographic utterly fail at understanding the other. But i think this issue is a little too played out. Frankly the solution is simple, if you are offended by the content of a game then you DON'T BUY THE GAME. You have as much right to not play a game as someone else has to play that game. Developers make these games with characters like these because sex sells. You will NEVER stop certain companies from making characters like these nor should you, It is there right to do so and it is not your right to stop them. The almighty dollar pushes everything in this world, you remove the dollar you remove the "problem." No amount of whining or preaching that your position is "right and just" will solve anything. As long as there is someone willing to buy something, there will be someone out there willing to sell it to them.

first of all, it's "blatant."

second, if sex sells, why is there (usually) no sex? This tease job has got to end - WE WANT MOAR SEX!

third, canadian dollar, or american dollar?

fourth, defer to my earlier post about intellectual criticism being indispensable in order to elevate any form of media to "art" (or just continue to qualify as protected free speech).

fifth, if games aren't worth talking about intellectually, then aren't they just a waste of time?

EDIT: This game has sex. And boobs. And is feminist. (Very, VERY NSFW) http://www.molleindustria.org/en/orgasm-simulator

 

[DSD12]

How come whenever this topic comes out everyone points to the Dead or Alive series sure they had the volley ball games and that didn't help but overall the focus was the fighting which shouldn't be faulted by the character designs

 

[faefrost]

On a similar note, this is a really good almost identically themed piece dealing with comics (this weeks huge comics controversy concerning DC's Starfire and Batman/Catwoman), from the viewpoint of a 7 year old girl. It's amazing how she is able to articulate that same thing that it isn't so much the costume or look as the posing and context.

http://io9.com/5844355/a-7+year+old-girl-responds-to-dc-comics-sexed+up-reboot-of-starfire

or

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/22/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine/

 

[cbert]

How come whenever this topic comes out everyone points to the Dead or Alive series sure they had the volley ball games and that didn't help but overall the focus was the fighting which shouldn't be faulted by the character designs

"they're just tacked on 'extra' games that took thousands of hours of development time and were sold separately at full price but overall the focus was on beating up hot ninjas with super boob physics so the series isn't bad"

and trolling stops... now.

 

[Terminal Blue]

The almighty dollar pushes everything in this world, you remove the dollar you remove the "problem." No amount of whining or preaching that your position is "right and just" will solve anything. As long as there is someone willing to buy something, there will be someone out there willing to sell it to them.

And that's why I can legally buy smack and inject it into my foreskin while jacking off to child porn! God bless you almighty dollar![footnote]I'm not actually making a point here, but seriously, claiming that media attitudes cannot be changed because that's just economics doesn't really cut it for me.. I'm sure people would have once said the same thing about blackface.[/footnote]

Bob, great episode. You neatly sidestepped the popular obsession with anti-pornography which seems to be all anyone knows or remembers about feminist media criticism, and approached the issue in a way I really wasn't expecting.

People too often forget the extent to which sex positivism is a feminist intervention. It's nice to see that occasionally people who aren't gender scholars or students themselves still remember this.

 

[cbert]

On a similar note, this is a really good almost identically themed piece dealing with comics (this weeks huge comics controversy concerning DC's Starfire and Batman/Catwoman), from the viewpoint of a 7 year old girl. It's amazing how she is able to articulate that same thing that it isn't so much the costume or look as the posing and context.

http://io9.com/5844355/a-7+year+old-girl-responds-to-dc-comics-sexed+up-reboot-of-starfire

or

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/22/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine/

Awesome links. Thanks for that.

 

[faefrost]

Outside of gagging down Bob's blatent liberal agenda he made a few good points. It is true that the gaming demographic and the femanist demographic utterly fail at understanding the other. But i think this issue is a little too played out. Frankly the solution is simple, if you are offended by the content of a game then you DON'T BUY THE GAME. You have as much right to not play a game as someone else has to play that game. Developers make these games with characters like these because sex sells. You will NEVER stop certain companies from making characters like these nor should you, It is there right to do so and it is not your right to stop them. The almighty dollar pushes everything in this world, you remove the dollar you remove the "problem." No amount of whining or preaching that your position is "right and just" will solve anything. As long as there is someone willing to buy something, there will be someone out there willing to sell it to them.

first of all, it's "blatant."

second, if sex sells, why is there (usually) no sex? This tease job has got to end - WE WANT MOAR SEX!

third, canadian dollar, or american dollar?

fourth, defer to my earlier post about intellectual criticism being indispensable in order to elevate any form of media to "art" (or just continue to qualify as protected free speech).

fifth, if games aren't worth talking about intellectually, then aren't they just a waste of time?

EDIT: This game has sex. And boobs. And is feminist. (Very, VERY NSFW) http://www.molleindustria.org/en/orgasm-simulator

What amazes me about both the gaming and the comics industries is somehow they missed the memo that told them that when done right, "sex really sells to women!!!" But when done wrong it drives them away in droves. Just look at any magazine targeted at women. Cosmo grossly outsells almost anything. And it's pure sex and sexy women. Has anyoen ever heard of a show called "Sex and the City"? Or how about all of those movies about sparkly vampires? It's all SEX!!! If they just learned to shift the context just a hair (or even give some of it just the smallest iota of context to begin with) they would have a license to print money to both sexes. You can keep the sexy in. Just make it inteligent sexy. (and no I don't mean "sexy librarian porn"!) (well ok I wouldn't say no to sexy librarian porn... just not in this context)

 

[Cesilius]

Outside of gagging down Bob's blatent liberal agenda he made a few good points. It is true that the gaming demographic and the femanist demographic utterly fail at understanding the other. But i think this issue is a little too played out. Frankly the solution is simple, if you are offended by the content of a game then you DON'T BUY THE GAME. You have as much right to not play a game as someone else has to play that game. Developers make these games with characters like these because sex sells. You will NEVER stop certain companies from making characters like these nor should you, It is there right to do so and it is not your right to stop them. The almighty dollar pushes everything in this world, you remove the dollar you remove the "problem." No amount of whining or preaching that your position is "right and just" will solve anything. As long as there is someone willing to buy something, there will be someone out there willing to sell it to them.

first of all, it's "blatant."

second, if sex sells, why is there (usually) no sex? This tease job has got to end - WE WANT MOAR SEX!

third, canadian dollar, or american dollar?

fourth, defer to my earlier post about intellectual criticism being indispensable in order to elevate any form of media to "art" (or just continue to qualify as protected free speech).

fifth, if games aren't worth talking about intellectually, then aren't they just a waste of time?

EDIT: This game has sex. And boobs. And is feminist. (Very, VERY NSFW) http://www.molleindustria.org/en/orgasm-simulator

In this post, someone avoiding all points brought up and trying to sound like they know what they are talking about.

I will try and educate you (though it may be difficult). "sex" is not just the physical act, you could try using a dictionary (big book with lots of words) and find out that the term also describes a differnece in gender and "the instinct or attraction drawing one sex toward another, or its manifestation in life and conduct." What ever form of currency you want, i know you are just being an ass but it really isn't that funny. I never once said video games weren't worth talking about intellectually, so you must have read the wrong post or you are as blind as you are ignorant. Yes video games are an art just as movies and books are. You can't tell me that all devolpers are out there to make a difference though, alot are out to make a dollar just like many films and books are. "but I maintain a shred of hope that the Devs are aiming for something higher (maybe art, even?). So I implore them to grow up and make their products worth taking seriously." Implying all sexual content is immature and not art? i think you may need to grow up first before telling others to.

Congrats on catching a spelling error though, you must feel so proud

 

[Dfskelleton]

So your saying that the underlying problem is that games are generally made specifically for guys, with no regard for a female audience? I can't say I disagree. I was reading something similar about TV shows and movies the other day. Someone was saying that the prevailing notion was that girls would watch "guy" shows, but guys wouldn't watch "girl" shows. As a result everyone defaults to making movies, shows, whatever with male leads and the like. Its probably even worse with games because producers may assume that there aren't even any girls to sell games to (something patently untrue, but whatever).

I have to disagree there, but I can see how you've come to that conclusion.
I'm assuming you're a heterosexual male (such as myself), and If you are not, I apologize. You don't notice this because you're a male, and I didn't notice it myself until someone else brought it up. Women aren't the only sex symbols in these games, we just don't notice the males because we don't look for such a thing. For a moment, put on a femal perspective, and look at these characters:

These are basically the male equivalent of the female characters that Bob speaks of, and while he's right on the whole "poses" thing, these hyper-masculine men are counterparts to the hyper-sexualized women seen in everything ever. Maybe since we can see more of the character in these males, ignoring any sexualization, then maybe women can more easily tell things about female characters.

 

[vortexgods]

Wow, I wrote a long post, I think it would be wrong to inflict it on this forum without spoiler tags. It's a long response, but I felt it was warranted:

Spoiler

I always think its dumb to try to respond to this, because normally you are responding to people who have the typical, messed up Puritan view of sexuality. (Which is that sex is wrong, it's particularly wrong for women, and women who look like they actually enjoy their sexuality are evil and must be destroyed.) This is called the [a href="http://madonnawhore.com/"]Madonna/Whore complex[/a] usually, and its sometimes mistaken for feminism, when it's usually just good old fashioned father-knows-best paternalism. This offends me because I have a sexy wife who enjoys her sex appeal, and I'm in love with her and have been for 12 years. Please put the scarlet letters back in the 17th century along with the witch burnings!

In Japan, of course, they have a whole different set of sexual hangups that don't necessarily translate. However, this particular one doesn't really exist over there in this way.

So you end up with a culture clash, which expresses itself in typical Puritan hostility to sexy women. Especially sexy women with agency (there's normally much less objection to sexy women who are helpless victims, as in American games like Duke Nukem'). In other words, plenty of people don't like women like Taki, or Mai, or Cammy who can kick your ass and look good doing it, but they'd be ok if those women were tied up and hanging in the background like Mary Jane Watson-Parker in Spider-man for the Sega Genesis.

As Quentin Tarantino said, people were OK with Alabama until she decided to fight back against Virgil.

Now, when the first woman appeared in the most important, revolutionary fighting game in Japan, she didn't have that much sex appeal. I'm speaking of Chun-Li here of course. Chun-Li wasn't deformed, and she dressed in a feminine manner, but she wasn't designed with sex appeal in mind:

[a]http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Street_Fighter_II/Characters/Chun-Li[/a]

About the only thing I can say about her is that she's bare legged. Her legs seem muscular. Her breasts aren't particularly large. She's in a pretty dress, but not one that is "sexy." I mean, I think she's pretty, but she's not exactly Shampoo (who appeared in a 16-bit fighting game based on Ranma 1/2):

[a]http://animebaths.wikia.com/wiki/Shampoo_(Ranma_1/2)[/a]

Chun-Li was popular, and when SNK and a few other Japanese companies figured out there were riches to be had by making Street Fighter II over and over again, they introduced other female characters. For example Art of Fighting had King:

[a]http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Art_of_Fighting/Characters/King[/a]

Who basically wears drag and mostly looks like a Bishonen guy, and Yuri:

[a]http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Art_of_Fighting/Characters/Yuri[/a]

Yuri is likable enough, but hardly a sex goddess. On the other hand you had the Fatal Fury series. In the first Fatal Fury women were notable mainly by their absence.

Then came Fatal Fury II.

Kaboom!

The character of Mai Shiranui is introduced:

[a]http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Fatal_Fury/Characters/Mai[/a]

She's a bona fide sex symbol, guaranteed to put Puritans of both sexes up in arms... and a major hit. Capcom would respond with Cammy, another Femme Fatale type:

[a]http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Street_Fighter_II/Characters/Cammy[/a]

After this, you could divide fighting game females into two types. The non-sexy ones that everyone forgets about, like Pai in Virtua Fighter:

[a]http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/virtua-fighter-remix/screenshots/gameShotId,12036/[/a]

(I think you're pretty, Pai!)

And the sexy femme fatales, like Lei Fang in the deliberately sex drenched, less "serious" competitor of Virtua Fighter, Dead or Alive:

[a]http://deadoralive.wikia.com/wiki/Lei_Fang/Outfit_Catalogues[/a]

Now I've heard that other countries besides Japan make fighting games, and I think I might actually have played one once. I think it was ugly, hard to control, and the characters were stupid. Actually, I think I played more than one non-Japanese fighter like that. Unfortunately... I don't have anything good or interesting to say about them! Gomen Nasai I guess!

With Japanese games, often sex appeal is one trick used to compete against rivals. For example, Soul Edge made itself very different from Tekken including increasing the sex appeal of its fighters (sorry [a href="http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Features/2009/07/Ugly%20polygon%20babes/Screens/P%20to%20Z/Sarah--article_image.jpg"]Sarah[/a], but you are just too tough looking!). On the other hand, the only sexy female in Samurai Spirits until [a href="http://snk.wikia.com/wiki/Mina_Majikina"]Mina Majikina[/a] (designed to be the opposite of innocent and childlike [a href="http://snk.wikia.com/wiki/Nakoruru"]Nakoruru[/a]) was introduced late in the series was Mai Shiranui in her cameo in [a href="http://www.giantbomb.com/mai-shiranui/94-182/all-images/52-300913/gen_an/51-1335187/"]Gen-An Shiranui's ending.[/a]

[a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBh79lLO7RY"]In closing... [/a]

I have the same thoughts about the matter. It's really hard to discuss this when there's a cultural difference aspect standing right there to muddy up everything. Now if this was based around a Western company doing this, then they probably deserve the amount of scorn their way for dressing up female characters scantily for nothing more than sex appeal.

Also, that's a mighty fine closing. I couldn't help but play that song while reading your post, made it much more festive.

I was thinking about the Simpson's episode where Marge instructs Homer to teach Bart that [a href="http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Princess_Kashmir"]Princess Kashmir[/a] is a real person with feelings after he takes a picture of Homer dancing with her at a co-workers bachelor party

 

[head desk tricycle]

Every time I get in this argument I remember this Voltaire quote.
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God has granted it."

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

Also, a few people mentioned 3rd Birthday, and I have this to say. I must be a disgrace to my gender since I loved that game and I didn't have much of a problem with the whole clothing thing (read: I thought it was stupid and moved on), again I just wrote it off as Japan being Japan and me not living there to get it, and that's not the game's fault.

No, I don't think you're a "disgrace to your gender" for liking 3rd Birthday. That would be like me thinking that I'm a disgrace to men for being okay with El Shaddai doing the same thing to its protagonist (who's a pretty boy).

SWEET!!

I will say when I played El Shaddai I couldn't help but make comparisons to 3rd Birthday when I saw that mechanic, and thought El Shaddai did it better....

Yeah, I have to agree with you about El Shaddai doing that better, mainly because that guy's paints don't get shredded to shorts (even if it did, I would found it very difficult to be offended). I'm still not sure if I would enjoy 3rd Birthday, due to the games other mechanics.

And to MovieBob's point, I never thought of it that way but I agree with him about there needs to be more variety on of female characters (especially protagonists) expression of body language.

3rd Birthday's mechanics takes getting used to, I know it took me a while to get used to them before I was comfortable with them.

Yeah, I will say that Western game companies do pose their female characters better and you can tell a lot about their personalities with how they pose better than Japanese female characters. I know there are some exceptions, but fighting games seem to be the worst offender when it comes to this, and I will never understand why that is.

 

[cbert]

Outside of gagging down Bob's blatent liberal agenda he made a few good points. It is true that the gaming demographic and the femanist demographic utterly fail at understanding the other. But i think this issue is a little too played out. Frankly the solution is simple, if you are offended by the content of a game then you DON'T BUY THE GAME. You have as much right to not play a game as someone else has to play that game. Developers make these games with characters like these because sex sells. You will NEVER stop certain companies from making characters like these nor should you, It is there right to do so and it is not your right to stop them. The almighty dollar pushes everything in this world, you remove the dollar you remove the "problem." No amount of whining or preaching that your position is "right and just" will solve anything. As long as there is someone willing to buy something, there will be someone out there willing to sell it to them.

first of all, it's "blatant."

second, if sex sells, why is there (usually) no sex? This tease job has got to end - WE WANT MOAR SEX!

third, canadian dollar, or american dollar?

fourth, defer to my earlier post about intellectual criticism being indispensable in order to elevate any form of media to "art" (or just continue to qualify as protected free speech).

fifth, if games aren't worth talking about intellectually, then aren't they just a waste of time?

EDIT: This game has sex. And boobs. And is feminist. (Very, VERY NSFW) http://www.molleindustria.org/en/orgasm-simulator

In this post, someone avoiding all points brought up and trying to sound like they know what they are talking about.

I will try and educate you (though it may be difficult). "sex" is not just the physical act, you could try using a dictionary (big book with lots of words) and find out that the term also describes a differnece in gender and "the instinct or attraction drawing one sex toward another, or its manifestation in life and conduct." What ever form of currency you want, i know you are just being an ass but it really isn't that funny. I never once said video games weren't worth talking about intellectually, so you must have read the wrong post or you are as blind as you are ignorant. Yes video games are an art just as movies and books are. You can't tell me that all devolpers are out there to make a difference though, alot are out to make a dollar just like many films and books are. "but I maintain a shred of hope that the Devs are aiming for something higher (maybe art, even?). So I implore them to grow up and make their products worth taking seriously." Implying all sexual content is immature and not art? i think you may need to grow up first before telling others to.

Congrats on catching a spelling error though, you must feel so proud

I don't feel proud about catching the spelling error, but the unintentional irony of the rest of your post certainly made me smile.

I also didn't imply that all sexual content is immature or not-art; see the link I provided (again, very NSFW).

I do hope you develop a sense of humor some day.

Regarding market forces: I agree, but you shouldn't underestimate the power of criticism in influencing consumer choices. I also don't think the dialogue is "played out;" it's necessary in a medium that considers itself an art form.