The Big Picture: Link Be A Lady

[madwarper]

Link Be A Lady

E3 2014 is over, and MovieBob takes a look at one particularly interesting announcement from Nintendo.

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Hey Bob, I quoting you in the hope that you'll actually read this, because there's something we need to talk to you about.

You know how much love you have for Man of Steel and The Amazing Spider-Man films? That's precisely how much we "appreciate" your "characters" from the GameOverthinker series. The Big Picture is a fairly decent show, don't ruin it. The GameOverthinker was a decent show, but when you began with your "characters", it went to shit. And, now that you're advertising the show here, and that we watch it on youtube, I can only assume this is a sign that whichever site was hosting the show (I've forgotten) has dropped it, most likely rescinding their "My video doesn't suck" award. If you want to salvage the Gameoverthinker, cut the crappy "characters" since you can't act. Take it back to when it was just a commentary on video games.

OK? Glad we had this talk to clear the air. And, lest I forget, we don't take kindly to the "Strawman" stunt you pulled last time.


Now, onto the actual topic at hand;
I don't really see this as a big deal. If the gameplay is the same, with save for generational improvements, then it shouldn't matter what the sex of Link is. I play the Legend of Zelda games because I have fun playing them, not because Link is male and Zelda is female. Hell, if it'll help sell more games, Rule 63 everyone in the game. Just keep turning out quality games and I'll be happy.

 

[Jennacide]

I just want to say, because now Bob is doing it too, the whole AC Unity thing wasn't outright sexist. It was stupid, badly worded (they are a natively French company), and LAZY. The reason there isn't a female character in the co-op is because you're just 4 different versions of the player character. They were trying to say the couldn't afford to make two protagonists, one male and one female, for the entire game. Which yes, we all know is bullshit since they wouldn't have to make any new riggings as they already have the model and rig for Aveline, and could easily change the outward appearance while keeping the rigging.

They aren't doing it to be spiteful to women, they're doing it because they're fucking LAZY. And maybe a little cheap.

 

[Halla Burrica]

I was a bit sceptical at first about Link being female, but now that I think about it, sure why not?
Maybe it wouldn't make a huge difference gameplay wise or even change much about the story. But it would be a cool option to have nonetheless.
However, if they want the choice of gender to matter, they will have to make SOME changes in order for it to have an impact and not just be reskinning a character model a bit. Wouldn't have to be much, just something that makes the destinction between the two genders, having there actually be a difference if you are a boy or a girl in Hyrule.

 

[Darth_Payn]

Those pictures of grizzled white dudes wasn't a fair depiction of E3 2014; at least half of them premiered at the previous two E3's.

As cool as it would be I'd actually prefer that they just go all in and make Zelda the protagonist for a change. Who doesn't want to play a magic ninja elf who is wise-as-fuck?

I'd... like some co-op opportunities here. Team up Link and Zelda, especially since Zelda has always been better (and more effective)as a tom-boy than in a dress.

I didn't see the original trailer (yet), but with not a lot of imagination, that could be Zelda in drag for all I know. I'm down with making her playable.

I was hoping female link was a thing this time as well, sucks that it isn't but who knows maybe said discussion will cause Nintendo to decide to actually do that this time around.

The assassins creed thing continues to be laughable as jim well pointed out in his vid this week. Really wish big companies would wake the fuck up to the modern world already. Gender equality is becoming a huger and huger deal as time roles on, in recent years gaining so much momentum and vocal outcry I'm going to really pity any company that forcibly and lazily sticks to the tired "lets just make a game about a gruff white dood again" schtick.

The sooner I get the equivalent of a motoko kusinagi as a protag in a game the better.

I'm going to give Ubisoft some room to explain themselves and clean up whatever mess they made BEFORE I decide to go a decapitatin'.
Also, I think there were two Ghost in the Shell games, but I don't recall their quality now.

 

[Lightknight]

Wait, Link actually being a woman would be a big difference? No, Link has always looked like a woman. Sorry. Unless there's actual nudity then it won't make any difference as far as I can tell.

And you sir missed the entire point of the video.

The point of the video is to make some kind of statement with the game.

I think making statements with beloved franchises is shit. Making changes for artistic reasons, because it makes sense, because the fans want it (keep in mind that his comment that there are people who want it does not negate or override the fans that don't, of whom their numbers are legion). Those are the reasons to make changes. Link is a little different though in that he reincarnates and there really is no reason why he can't be female. But to apply this logic to nearly any other game would be frustrating. And not just male to female. I don't like the idea of people screwing with established characters anymore than I'd like you shitting on Van Gogh's starry night to make it modern. Chell needs to remain female. Lara Croft needs to remain female and all of the other stable characters need to remain who they are. Now, create a game in a familiar universe with a different hero or heroine? Sure.

But, again, Link isn't a stable character. So I really may not care on this one. I'm undecided. In most situations I'm a firm no on entirely uprooting tradition. But this one side steps the issue. [/conflicted]

 

[DaViller]

Sorry bob and women and men who think alike, I like my link as a dude more then as a chick. Doesn´t matter to me that he basically already looks like a girl but as long as hes a dudebro at heart im cool(and he is as far as im concerned).

I wouldn´t mind a game where you can choose to play as a female link, but zelda(the series) just wouldn´t be zelda if I couldn´t cheer on link during cutscenes to go fight for that ass.

 

[Tradjus]

You know, they could still make this Link a girl, and unlike Ubisoft, it'd cost them literally no effort.
Just -say- it's a girl, the model is so androgynous that no one would even complain.
A net benefit of community support with no effort spent whatsoever, it'd be ridiculous too turn that down.

 

[The Deadpool]

Why is it okay to say Gerald and Nathan Drake look the same? I'm as bored with male leads in games as the next guy, but isn't "They all look alike" pretty much the most stereotypically racist thing you can say?

 

[Gizen]

If you're going to put a female in your game, then do it either with a new IP, or with a series that doesn't have fully established characters to represent the franchise (e.g. Assassin's Creed). Don't suddenly switch Link to a female and say "this is for the feminists".

This argument is flawed. It implies that any desire to take a previously male character and turn them female is 'for the feminists' instead of being 'because we feel like it' or 'because why not?' In fact, the latter reasoning is by far and away the most common one people are citing.

No most people want Link to be female because they want more female characters but are too lazy to make new ones.

Link isn't really much of a 'character'. With the exception of Wind Waker, he generally has no personality, intentionally so, as he's supposed to be an avatar for the player themself. Making him female, or better yet giving the option to be either or, lets the other half of the world get to be in his shoes for a change. It's hardly laziness.

Here's how you make a good female character. You make a good character, and then you make it a woman.

That assumes that a good male character will act the same way as a good female character and that people will treat a male character the same way as a female one. Both of these assumptions are deeply flawed. You only get a good female character if you try to make a female character.

No, because a person is not defined solely by their gender, especially in a fictionalized world where you're free to throw out gender stereotypes and prejudices as having never existed there. While writing specifically with the knowledge that your character is female can increase the strength of the writing/story, that should never be the starting point. The focus needs to be on developing the character first, and figuring out their place in the world. You complain about token characters, but when you specifically start with nothing more than 'this character's gonna be a girl', that is exactly how token characters are created, with no purpose to serve other than to meet a checklist.

Besides, how other people treat the character is part of the characterization of other people, not the initial character.

People act like male is the default, and any attempt to do a female is 'token representation' or pandering.

The majority of soldiers and adventures are male, so it makes sense for male to be the default. For roles such as nurse or teacher it would make more sense to have the default be female as most of the nurses and teacher are female.

This is just straight-up bullshit on so many levels. Not only does this attitude stem from pre-women's rights movements when women were actively being excluded from those roles, but it also dismisses the fact that women CAN and DO perform these roles nowadays. Try telling that to an actual women serving in the military that she can't be featured in a video game because her gender hasn't finished catching up yet from back in the day when she still wouldn't have even been allowed to vote.

Not to mention that that kind of dismissive attitude only serves to make young girls feel like their options in life are limited. They deserve to be represented in all the roles they're perfectly capable of fulfilling in real life.

And when you're making something that you want everyone to enjoy, you should note that 'whatever the hell you want it to be' is not the same for everybody and keep that in mind. Ignoring the fact that not everyone wants the same thing is how male becomes the default option.

You only make things you want people to enjoy when working for free. Any professional will make something that will sell as many copies as possible and as long as male characters sell better than female ones male will remain the default.

Except that, despite what marketing people may try to lead you to believe, it's never actually been proven that male characters inherently sell better than female ones, and in fact there are multiple examples where this is either blatantly false, or where a female-led game/move/whatever sold worse due to other unrelated factors (actual quality of the product/poor marketing/etc.)

 

[KazeAizen]

You know, they could still make this Link a girl, and unlike Ubisoft, it'd cost them literally no effort.
Just -say- it's a girl, the model is so androgynous that no one would even complain.
A net benefit of community support with no effort spent whatsoever, it'd be ridiculous too turn that down.

Add in the fact that since they don't do extended voice work it wouldn't be difficult to call in someone to record female grunts for Link or as I would spell it Lynk. Besides like Bob pretty much all my friends thought Link looked a little more feminine than usual. I think they hit some weird middle ground on this one. Like just perfect enough that you could literally put a girl or boy voice with that model and it would make sense. Even if this is male Link we at least have the consolation of finally being able to play as Zelda in Hyrule Warriors.

 

[Lono Shrugged]

That's 2 shoehorned gender politic articles in one week Bob. Last week was the same. I love ladies in media too Bob. But I cannot get behind much of what you seem to think is positive. Gender swapping Link because "Who Cares they have no character anyway" is a false economy in games. Replacing a character model and a few dialogue lines and absolutely nothing else is equality in the same sense as neither gender is really served at best and at worst the character becomes a macho tough woman speaking a man's lines. To be fair, It can work sometimes and the players projection can help the issue. But lets not all cheer too hard at that. It's not a huge achievement unless the character actually changes and exhibits motivation and complexity. And that's what I think about the topic. (Aside from the fact that Link looks a little more feminine because that's how the Japanese portray their ideal protagonists/heros. I don't want to make sweeping suppositions, but there is a ton of precedent to back me up.)

I have noticed recently a serious change in the wind in the comments to Bob's videos & articles. Fans seem to enjoy his summary of pop culture classics and analysis of comics, weird movies etc. On a site riddled with news articles, edtorial and critiques. It would be refreshing to not read 3 points of view on the same topic that all amount to the same key point. I think people should play to their strengths and Bob has always been best talking about well researched and objective history. Because it's really feeling like the same song over and over.

 

[hermes]

It would be interesting if done right, but I think you are giving Nintendo too much credit if you think they will jump over that. Remember, this is the company that got so protective over their IP they didn't allow Mario to make a cameo on Wreak It Ralph; and this is the franchise that got their fans up in arms when the art style of Wind Waker was revealed because it was "too childish" and "not realistic enough"...

 

[ryo02]

I'm all for the idea I say go for it and considering people thought the new link was female they probably wouldn't have to change much if anything that they've made so far.

or have this "link" actually be zelda and your playing as her this time either way works for me.

 

[hermes]

I just want to say, because now Bob is doing it too, the whole AC Unity thing wasn't outright sexist. It was stupid, badly worded (they are a natively French company), and LAZY. The reason there isn't a female character in the co-op is because you're just 4 different versions of the player character. They were trying to say the couldn't afford to make two protagonists, one male and one female, for the entire game. Which yes, we all know is bullshit since they wouldn't have to make any new riggings as they already have the model and rig for Aveline, and could easily change the outward appearance while keeping the rigging.

They aren't doing it to be spiteful to women, they're doing it because they're fucking LAZY. And maybe a little cheap.

I agree that the wording was poor, but if the meaning was "we can't afford to create two different characters for the entire game", then it is NOT bullshit, it is a valid point. Remember that AC is a game with several hours worth of script, voice acting and localization, with well defined characters; which means it would change everything from what your character's name is pronounced by lots of other characters, to interactions and possibly story elements. To simply say: lets replace this model for a woman, like it was some sort of mod, while keeping everything else the same, and call it a day, is simplistic and amateurish. To make it properly at this point in development would be an exorbitant amount of work.

Other games with voice acting have the option to choose the genre, but they are built from the beginning with tricks like addressing them neutrally (The Boss in Saints Rows, Dovahkiin in Skyrim, Commander Shepard in Mass Effect) or simply didn't give a shit about defining the character: in Saints Rows 4, you can have sex with pretty much anything; in Skyrim, you can marry anything (regardless of sex or race) and you can walk naked into a sacred temple and no one will bat an eye. Those characters are defined by your actions, not by the story the developers are trying to make. Assassins Creed was never a game with undefined characters, so that you could insert yourself into them; and now people are blaming them for that...

At this point, I feel like complaining that you can't choose a woman as the main character in a story already defined is like complaining there are not two versions of Lord of the Rings, one with the fellowship comprised entirely by women.

 

[lord canti]

If you're going to make a female the main character in a Zelda game then make it Zelda. Why not have Zelda start off as the everyday girl and end up having to save prince link? This would be far more interesting than a genderswap of someone who doesn't have much of a personality. Or like some people hear have said, give us both. On a different note Bob, while Zelda and Link are usually reincarnations, Ganon is almost always the same.

 

[Chessrook44]

See, the thought I have is this....

Not only Link female being a big change, but what if the ENTIRE universe is swapped? Male Zelda, turning her into a prince armed with the power of Wisdom? Female Ganon, armed with the power of.... er, Power? And hopefully not sexed up either. And other recurring characters showing up as opposite genders too!

Wait... then again... that one fairy guy going "Kooloo Limpah" or whatever the hell it was as a woman...

Maybe not the best idea...

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I would have no problem with a female Link, however I'm apparently the only one who didn't get confused about Link's gender when looking at this game's footage.

 

[Eri]

I would have no problem with a female Link, however I'm apparently the only one who didn't get confused about Link's gender when looking at this game's footage.

I still don't see how any of you people thought Link was a woman. Maybe some of you think even the slightest bit of femininity means "OMG WOMAN"?

Noooope. You are not the only one. Bottom of page 3.

 

[xaszatm]

To be sure I think that it would be a welcome change, but I think that it needs to come with a certain degree of additional work if it's going to be anything other than a gender flip "stunt."
In other words, the first time Link shows up as a lady, the game needs to be one of the few times within the series that Link is given more personality than the gawping "Let's save Hyrule because...reasons" protagonist that he usually is.

No, I'd disagree. Making a big deal about the character's gender and choosing then to define their personality is what Other M did, and we don't want a repeat of that.

Just make the game like Nintendo would if it were Link as usual, then flip the pronouns. Nothing about it calls for anything more than that.

It's a valid point. I'd argue that where Other M failed was less in trying to flesh out Samus' personality and more in their insistence that all of her fleshed out personality traits be linked, rather negatively, to her gender.

Apropos of nothing we were presented with a Samus who is overly concerned with motherhood, and abandonment issues and impressing a boy she likes and is frail and cowering in the face of big scary monsters...it was all ham handed and more than a little offensive.
Any one, or all of these things could have worked in a different game or better script, but with Other M we're just meant to assume all of these things make sense for Samus because she's a lady.


Where I think a female Link would need to stand out is really something I think the LoZ series should have been doing for a long time. All too often Link just stumbles ass backwards into an adventure and then lets the momentum carry him through. If a game were to present itself with a female Link it's going to get a lot of knee jerk hostility that I think can be deflected by having a stronger narrative foundation.

Skyward Sword did try to give Link some actual character development and some motivations. Whether it worked or not is up to the player.

I'd argue that they've been giving Link more of a personality for years now. Hell, I still say Spirit Tracks is the one game that gives Link and Zelda more of a full personality instead of the stereotypes they usually are. Yes, you play as Link (and semi-play as Zelda) but there personality is shown in a multitude of ways in both the game itself and in cutscenes that it remains my favorite Zelda game period.

OT: I can't find much to argue here. I'm not seeing much difference in the story if Link was a girl in the earlier games and the later games all gave Link a different personality (including none) that changing the gender really isn't going to make a difference to me. Though, with Eiji, anything is possible.

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