Agreed. I find the gender swapping completely pointless when they already have candidates that could make interesting hero's. Zelda is perfect, the title of the games would actually make sense for once. Or how about we play as one of the Sheikah's (I think they're called), or a Gerudo? And you can save Link too or whatever. Now that would be an actual change.Genocidicles said:I'd rather a game where you play as Zelda (a good one) than a game where they make Link a woman. It just seems weird swapping the genders like that.
I don't really mean to challenge your statement or anything but there are at least two games where Link has an implied romance with another female character. In OoT you have the Zora princess Ruto who plans to marry you when you grow up after giving you the Water Sapphire and becoming your fiancee and even after the time skip still remembers the vows she made. In Skyward Sword you have Peatrice who you can actively romance her to make her happy or reject her to please her father.Xsjadoblayde said:Is gender really still such a big issue for people here? What's all this talk of "sexuality" in zelda games? As far as i'm aware, there has been no hint of sexuality in any Zelda adventure. At best, Link and Zelda have been close childhood friends. Any idea of sexual desire must have been imposed by the player at the time. The games have always maintained a childhood innocence, perhaps that is still difficult for some to embrace with such raging hormones.
These games have a perfect opportunity to be any gender, as Dr Who and the Assassin's creed series can be. Why not let it happen? As long as the game is still great, who really cares?
Link was made right-handed in the Wii version of Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, to make his movements more immediately relatable to the majority right-handed population. They weren't so attached to the idea of a left-handed hero that they didn't change it. If the developers decide they want an incarnation to be female, it would be another concession for another majority, and that's a-ok. It wouldn't change every incarnation of link. This time, the triforce of courage decides it wants to stick itself on the back of a lady's hand instead.Something Evil said:Thing is, Link has always been male; just how he's always been left-handed, dressed in green, and carried the whole messianic role.
If we change that part of the archetype by saying "This time Link is a woman!", why not "This time Link has a shotgun. And rides a hog. And does coke. And calls himself Cocky Bruce.".
The problem is that Nintendo would be massively criticized for this. This happens all the time (not an established character gender swapping but a female character that the developer basically flipped a coin for) and is sometimes known as the "man with breasts" problem and has been the subject of a ton of video game criticism. Nintendo would get slammed for it.Penitent said:No, I'd disagree. Making a big deal about the character's gender and choosing then to define their personality is what Other M did, and we don't want a repeat of that.Diddy_Mao said:To be sure I think that it would be a welcome change, but I think that it needs to come with a certain degree of additional work if it's going to be anything other than a gender flip "stunt."
In other words, the first time Link shows up as a lady, the game needs to be one of the few times within the series that Link is given more personality than the gawping "Let's save Hyrule because...reasons" protagonist that he usually is.
Just make the game like Nintendo would if it were Link as usual, then flip the pronouns. Nothing about it calls for anything more than that.
Xsjadoblayde said:Is gender really still such a big issue for people here? What's all this talk of "sexuality" in zelda games? As far as i'm aware, there has been no hint of sexuality in any Zelda adventure. At best, Link and Zelda have been close childhood friends. Any idea of sexual desire must have been imposed by the player at the time. The games have always maintained a childhood innocence, perhaps that is still difficult for some to embrace with such raging hormones.
These games have a perfect opportunity to be any gender, as Dr Who and the Assassin's creed series can be. Why not let it happen? As long as the game is still great, who really cares?
Incorrect, its not to do with the triforce, the triforce is an extra aspect of the reincarnation. (also spoiler, said pirate captain was the princess hiding in plain sight).Azure23 said:The "process" for change is the same process that reincarnated the triforce into three people over the generations. The triforce of wisdom is reincarnated in a princess, the triforce of power is reincarnated in a warrior, and the triforce of courage is reincarnated in a hero. There's literally no lore reason why that cant be a woman. Most Zelda games star different reincarnations of Link and Zelda and Ganon anyway, I mean do you remember the timeline where Zelda was a damn pirate captain?
Left handed link there would have a actual game-play impact, having the sword and shield on the wrong controller for the majority of the players would seriously screw up how-the game controlled and played, and it would make it unplayable for the majority of people and a lot of hte more casual players as well. This is 2 very different things, one being discussed as literally change for changes sake. one would have had a major impact on gameplay.Jopoho said:Link was made right-handed in the Wii version of Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, to make his movements more immediately relatable to the majority right-handed population. They weren't so attached to the idea of a left-handed hero that they didn't change it. If the developers decide they want an incarnation to be female, it would be another concession for another majority, and that's a-ok. It wouldn't change every incarnation of link. This time, the triforce of courage decides it wants to stick itself on the back of a lady's hand instead.
honestly, I would be fine with a female link. I'd probably start buying LoZ games again just to see.Crazie_Guy said:I made the mistake as usual of reading a few comments before watching the video, and it seems like a few people wouldn't like a female link, for various stupid reasons. Then I watched the video and it had all the perfect counterpoints to those reasons. So I guess none of these people were paying attention?
I'm so glad you brought this up, did not feminist frequency herself decry this "trope"? Ms. Male Character, or something of the sort.DrOswald said:The problem is that Nintendo would be massively criticized for this. This happens all the time (not an established character gender swapping but a female character that the developer basically flipped a coin for) and is sometimes known as the "man with breasts" problem and has been the subject of a ton of video game criticism. Nintendo would get slammed for it.Penitent said:No, I'd disagree. Making a big deal about the character's gender and choosing then to define their personality is what Other M did, and we don't want a repeat of that.Diddy_Mao said:To be sure I think that it would be a welcome change, but I think that it needs to come with a certain degree of additional work if it's going to be anything other than a gender flip "stunt."
In other words, the first time Link shows up as a lady, the game needs to be one of the few times within the series that Link is given more personality than the gawping "Let's save Hyrule because...reasons" protagonist that he usually is.
Just make the game like Nintendo would if it were Link as usual, then flip the pronouns. Nothing about it calls for anything more than that.
It is a bit of a problem. Some feminists (I would bet a relatively small but loud percent) seem to want a character that is uniquely female (that is, has traits beyond the physical that identify them as undeniably female) but not stereotypically female (that is, do not have traits that are traditionally associated with being female.) It is possible to do, but also very very difficult and the definition will change from one observer to the next.Darkmantle said:I'm so glad you brought this up, did not feminist frequency herself decry this "trope"? Ms. Male Character, or something of the sort.DrOswald said:The problem is that Nintendo would be massively criticized for this. This happens all the time (not an established character gender swapping but a female character that the developer basically flipped a coin for) and is sometimes known as the "man with breasts" problem and has been the subject of a ton of video game criticism. Nintendo would get slammed for it.Penitent said:No, I'd disagree. Making a big deal about the character's gender and choosing then to define their personality is what Other M did, and we don't want a repeat of that.Diddy_Mao said:To be sure I think that it would be a welcome change, but I think that it needs to come with a certain degree of additional work if it's going to be anything other than a gender flip "stunt."
In other words, the first time Link shows up as a lady, the game needs to be one of the few times within the series that Link is given more personality than the gawping "Let's save Hyrule because...reasons" protagonist that he usually is.
Just make the game like Nintendo would if it were Link as usual, then flip the pronouns. Nothing about it calls for anything more than that.
This is why it's so hard to put women in games right now, everyone seems to want a female character a certain way,and if you don't do it their way, you're a horrible misogynist. Focus on their sexuality too much, some will say you;re making a big deal of it, and call you sexist. Focus on it to little or don't consider it a factor at all, now it might as well just be a male character, you misogynist fuck.
It wouldn't be such a problem if leading questions weren't always phrased as "... as a woman" because the subject then goes from being about the character to being just about their gender. That's the core problem with the lack of women in games.DrOswald said:It is a bit of a problem. Some feminists (I would bet a relatively small but loud percent) seem to want a character that is uniquely female (that is, has traits beyond the physical that identify them as undeniably female) but not stereotypically female (that is, do not have traits that are traditionally associated with being female.) It is possible to do, but also very very difficult and the definition will change from one observer to the next.Darkmantle said:I'm so glad you brought this up, did not feminist frequency herself decry this "trope"? Ms. Male Character, or something of the sort.DrOswald said:The problem is that Nintendo would be massively criticized for this. This happens all the time (not an established character gender swapping but a female character that the developer basically flipped a coin for) and is sometimes known as the "man with breasts" problem and has been the subject of a ton of video game criticism. Nintendo would get slammed for it.Penitent said:No, I'd disagree. Making a big deal about the character's gender and choosing then to define their personality is what Other M did, and we don't want a repeat of that.Diddy_Mao said:To be sure I think that it would be a welcome change, but I think that it needs to come with a certain degree of additional work if it's going to be anything other than a gender flip "stunt."
In other words, the first time Link shows up as a lady, the game needs to be one of the few times within the series that Link is given more personality than the gawping "Let's save Hyrule because...reasons" protagonist that he usually is.
Just make the game like Nintendo would if it were Link as usual, then flip the pronouns. Nothing about it calls for anything more than that.
This is why it's so hard to put women in games right now, everyone seems to want a female character a certain way,and if you don't do it their way, you're a horrible misogynist. Focus on their sexuality too much, some will say you;re making a big deal of it, and call you sexist. Focus on it to little or don't consider it a factor at all, now it might as well just be a male character, you misogynist fuck.
The real problem with this is that there are no real female defining features beyond the strictly physical. There are certain trends (women tend to have greater pain tolerance than men, for example) and social constructs (pink!) but those things are not inherently female anymore than blue is inherently male. All "inherently" female traits are purely physical (and there is even an argument to be made there.) Everything else is just stereotypes based mostly on social constructs.
Frankly, the "man with boobs" criticism is bizarrely sexist. It is a feminist deciding that a female characters is not stereotypically female enough and criticizing the creator for failing to conform their female character to accepted female stereotypes.